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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 21, 2009 17:12:25 GMT -5
This is interesting, quoted from Crescent and Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians by George Walter Gawrych. In this meeting, held by two chief Tosk representatives Niyazi Bey and Cerciz Topulli (this is how their 'ethnicity' was written by the Ottoman officials recording, for some reason the Ottomans switched around between Arnavut and Tosk/Gheg dichotomy, this was largely the reason for the diff. until today): The Ottoman 'Turk' representative: The Turks have shown greatness in sacrificing [their] lives not only for Turkism [Turkluk] but also for Ottomanism [Osmanlilik]' Albanian Tosk representatives response: 'Up to now the Turks have been sluggish in working for Ottomanism and Tosks have been unfortunate in having to work alone for the [Ottoman] vatan .... Picture of Niyazi Bey: fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages%5CFoto%20Haber%5CResneli%20Niyazi%20Bey%5CYSRAKSY-2.jpg
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 26, 2009 23:18:49 GMT -5
Bumped... for others to see... 100 years ago, for the majority of Muslim Albanians, the idea of a state entirely separated from the Ottoman realm was unthinkable and heretical. Hidhuni perpjet!!!
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Post by ErmirI on Apr 26, 2009 23:41:10 GMT -5
yeah turkish sources are the best trusted out there, but I huess when ones is Turk in the head...there's no medicine
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 26, 2009 23:42:32 GMT -5
The author is American, the source is just an Ottoman recording of what was said... The Albanians wrote in Ottoman Turkish since it was an official dialect. Its an important primary source... that reveals the truth: Being Alb and Ottoman at that time was intertwined.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 26, 2009 23:43:24 GMT -5
Niyazi Bey and his men in Monastir. Those were volunteer Albanians from various areas of Albania coming to help in the pro-Constitutional revolution The white qelesh instead of the red fex symbolize that they were Albanians. Albanian troops were typically allowed to arrange according to clan and used traditional clothing instead of uniforms.
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Post by ErmirI on Apr 26, 2009 23:58:26 GMT -5
More turkish sources as If I can't read that ugly language
more than 500 chieftains (mostly muslim ) massacred by the turks as sign of friendship between us and them
sorry Ermal, you are as fucked up in the head as Bollano and those 30 grekofil himariots
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 27, 2009 0:08:30 GMT -5
They were massacred because they were conservative Islamic rulers who didnt want to accept the reforms that threatened their hold over the land. The Albanian chieftains were some of the most conservative of the entire Ottoman Balkans. They were even eventually opposed to granting Christians equal status since it would deprive them of privilages and land. In fact, at some point, one can say that they wanted to maintain "Ottoman" as a religious designation, rather than the later 19th century concept of Ottoman as a national designation.
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Post by insomniac on Apr 27, 2009 0:15:59 GMT -5
Im a Tosk-centric person myself. I accept and recognize the tolerance of Ottoman Empire in terms of religious affairs. I respect that.
But, I want an indepedent, strong Albania with good relations with modern Turkey. Based on the geo-politics of todays world.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 27, 2009 5:01:59 GMT -5
Guys, how can't the majority of you see what was your position under the Osman baba yoke? It is the rule that counts not the exceptions. And the rule is that the majority of Albanians felt that they were part of the Ottomans, equal with the Turks, something like the Kurds and the Kirkassians in Asia and Bosnaks in Balkans...
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Post by filomen on Apr 27, 2009 5:17:30 GMT -5
some body thought that he was an otoman others that were albanian, same for the greeks what do y think patrinos
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 27, 2009 5:29:24 GMT -5
some body thought that he was an otoman others that were albanian, same for the greeks what do y think patrinos Those Greeks who thought that they were Ottomans have their grandgrandgrandchildren living in Turkey and be good Turks today....They aren't Greeks even if they speak/spoke Greek... If somebody " tourkeve"-turkicized he was not Greek any more even if he could only speak two-three phrases in Turkish. And of course the sign of " tourkema" was the islamization, that granted him and his family a easier life, unacceptable if there is a sence of pride and decency among a people. I suppose that in these two last values you have a liittle problem to understand them in the way we do... It isn't pridefull for example to become a nazi when Nazis occupy your country...understand?
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Post by filomen on Apr 27, 2009 5:44:36 GMT -5
no am just suppose there is nothing diferent betwin greeks and turks change religion and identity, cose both of your pop. are similar by the way the only that didnt change religios were the slavic and arbanites that lived in greece, those kind of pop. are true greek and alsou white pop. but unfortunatly infected
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 27, 2009 5:45:41 GMT -5
English please.
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Post by filomen on Apr 27, 2009 5:58:34 GMT -5
oh y just find my reson why im debate with y
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 27, 2009 12:17:14 GMT -5
some body thought that he was an otoman others that were albanian, same for the greeks what do y think patrinos Those Greeks who thought that they were Ottomans have their grandgrandgrandchildren living in Turkey and be good Turks today....They aren't Greeks even if they speak/spoke Greek... If somebody " tourkeve"-turkicized he was not Greek any more even if he could only speak two-three phrases in Turkish. And of course the sign of " tourkema" was the islamization, that granted him and his family a easier life, unacceptable if there is a sence of pride and decency among a people. I suppose that in these two last values you have a liittle problem to understand them in the way we do... It isn't pridefull for example to become a nazi when Nazis occupy your country...understand? Albania is not Greece and our identity should not be understood in your terms. Just so you know, the reasons for Albanian conversion are many fold and complicated and are not simply an issue of "benefits", especially since the average Albanian peasant didnt receive any real benefits in conversion. Life continued as it had done for centuries prior: poor, short, hard and unhealthy, and furthermore dominated by warlords or landholding elites. Only now the Christian Arianiti or Thopia was replaced with the Muslim Esad Toptani, Ali Pasha and Ahmet Zogu. This meant little for the average Albanian... and being Muslim wasnt any real relief. The reasons why Albs converted has more to do with the disorder of the Christian church, particularly the Catholic; but also with the lack of clearly defined church or church tradition. Simply put, it didnt matter if you were Christian or Muslim since, up until the 19th century, life was nearly identical for both. So dont speak unless you first get yourself educated, tsigane....
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 27, 2009 12:29:12 GMT -5
Did Malsors or Southies or Montenegrins had "Church tradiotion"? Islamisation-" tourkema" was an Ottoman way to submit people, don't you agree? Or they did it in order to have more debaters about the islamic theological issues...?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 27, 2009 13:59:44 GMT -5
The Malsors are surviving remnants. And the montenegrins were not only created a church tradition, they lived in a theocracy. Orthodox church was the epicenter of their identity and life. Their rulers were also priests. For Albs the tradition was not so. In fact, the first conversions in Albania were often by communities of Christians in the north who built up inat against their feuding clerics. Read Stavro Skendi's article 'Crypto-Christianity in the Balkans'.
Other conversions happened as a result of mercenary activity of Albs in the Ottoman service in the 17th-19th century. This is why there are so many Bektashis in Albania, a faith that actually appealed to Albanians.
Like I said, the problem
In fact, the clerical problem in northern Albania was even attested by the Papacy, who wanted to push into the region.
Malsors are simply survivors, since after the 19th century, Europe finally had a say in the region again and pushed their priests into it. Keeping alive.
Anyway, Im not here to 'excuse' my people of anything. If you want to keep trying to attack peasants and feudal lords go ahead, and if you want to extend your attacks onto me through my ancestors go well ahead, what you Greeks do or say is none of my concern. Im very happy with the decisions of my ancestors and of my Islamic Bektashi heritage.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 27, 2009 15:26:23 GMT -5
Insallah arnavudlar!
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Post by todhrimencuri on Apr 27, 2009 17:13:13 GMT -5
its mashallah ('God has willed it'), inshallah is hopefully, 'god willing'...
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Apr 28, 2009 4:11:27 GMT -5
its mashallah ('God has willed it'), inshallah is hopefully, 'god willing'... ;D You know,bre arnavud!
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