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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:31:24 GMT -5
reposting --- Keulus (9/10/03 4:50 am) Illyrians or not: Genetic composition of AlbaniansOrnella Semino,1,2*† Giuseppe Passarino,2,3† Peter J. Oefner,4Alice A. Lin,2 Svetlana Arbuzova,5 Lars E. Beckman,6Giovanna De Benedictis,3 Paolo Francalacci,7 Anastasia Kouvatsi,8 Svetlana Limborska,9 Mladen Marcikiæ,10Anna Mika,11 Barbara Mika,12 Dragan Primorac,13A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti,1 L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza,2Peter A. Underhill ------EU3----EU4--EU7----EU9---EU10--EU11-EU18-EU 19--EU14--EU15-EU16 ALB 2.0-----21.6-19.6----23.5----4.0----2.0---17.6---9.8-------X-------X------X TUR 3.3-----13.3- 3.3 ----40.0 ----3.3 ---6.6--- 6.6--- 6.6------3.3---- 3.3--- 3.3 SYR 10.0 --10.0- 5.0-----15.0-----30.0-- X ----15.0-- 10.0---- X ------X------ X LEB X-------25.8- 3.2----- 29.0-----16.1- 3.2--- 6.4---- 9.7----- X----- X------ XTo sum it up: ------ Eu9-10-11 (Turkey & Middle-East)a. Turkey and the Middle-Eastern countries share a common large percentage of the Eu9-Eu10-Eu11 gene group. [red] To be more precise, Turkey has 49.9%, Syria has 45%, and Lebanon has 48.3. Albania has 29.5%, and Greece has 24.9%. The Eu9-10-11 group is virtually non-existent in Western and Northern Europe. In short terms, Albanians have a substantial percentage of a common Middle-Eastern trait in their blood, courtesy of the Turco-Arabs no doubt, which is greater than the percentage the Greeks have by a substantial margin. ------- Eu4 (Greco-Phoenician)b. The Eu4 genetical trait is also fairly common in the Middle East, the Balkans, the Eastern Mediterranean, and to a lesser extend in Turkey. To be more precise, Turkey has 13.3%, Syria has 10%, Lebanon has 25.8%,Calabria [Magna Grecia]13.5%, Sardinia 10.4%, and Catalania 4.2%. Albania has 21.6% and Greece has 22.4%. The Eu4 appears to have been transmitted along the Eastern Meditteranean and in the Balkans by the Greek Expansion throughout the ages. The Eu4 is virtually none-existent in Western and Northern Europe. ------- EU 18 (Roman/Latin and Euro-Celtic)c. The Eu18 genetical trait is very common in Western and North Western Europe [Non-Germanic Europe for the most part]. It could be said that it marks the expansion of the Roman Empire on the European Celtic areas. The Eu18, is virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Middle East. Albania has 17.6% and Greece has 27.6% Calabria [Magna Grecia] has 32.6%, Central & Northern Italia has 62%, France has 52.2%, and Holland has a staggering 70.4%. -------- EU 19 (Slavic)d. The Eu 19 is for the most part, more common in Slavic Europe. EU 19 is virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Middle-East. Chechoslovakia has 26.7%, Croatia has 29.3%, Poland has 56.4%, Ukrania has 54%, Greece has 11.8%, and Albania has 9.8%. -------- Eu7&Eu8 (Germanic & Slavic)e. Eu7&Eu8 are most commonly found in the Germanic & Slavic countries.There is also a large percentage of Eu7 in Finland, which has been interpreted as Germanic contribution to the Finnish gene pool. Eu7&Eu8 are virtually non-existent in Turkey and the Middle East. Germany has 37.5%, Holland has 22.2%, Croatia has 44.8%, Poland has 20%, Ukraine has 18%, Chechoslovakia has 15.6%, FYROM has 20%, Albania has 19%, and Greece, Central & Northern Italy, and Calabria [Magna Grecia] have 8%. The remainder of Western Celtic & Roman Europe also have a very low perecentage of Eu7&Eu8. SUMMARY: ------------- a. Turkik & Middle Eastern- 29.5% ALB vs 24.9% GRC b. Greco-Phoenician---------21.6% ALB vs 22.4% GRC c. Latin & Euro-Celtic--------17.6% ALB vs 27.6% GRC d. Slavic----------------------09.8% ALB vs 11.8% GRC e. Germano-Slavic------------19% ALB vs --8% GRC, ITA, ES, POR, SOURCE: ------------ website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:35:06 GMT -5
Blanco(9/10/03 4:53 am) This is a just smoke and mirrors. You have picked a certain genetic trait and simply assumed that all lacking it are NW. So what if Albanians lack it? Have you linked it to race? No! ------- Keulus (9/10/03 4:56 am)
Nay, that it is not Sr. Blanco.
I shall tell you what it is. The above post of mine, is merely an extract from a thoroughly scientific work by a team of scientists, including Prof. Luca-Luigi Cavalli-Sforza. In the interest of good trust, I also included the link, which you may follow, and read the essay at issue.
You may choose to discredit the above essay at the peril of your reducing your credibility.
Further, I am the only one who is not from South-Eastern Europe, and thus I can be said to be impartial. --------- blanco(9/10/03 6:13 am) Table 1. Frequencies (in percent) of the haplotypes found in the examined European populations. ........... Population n Haplotypes* Population n
Eu1-Eu3-Eu4-Eu6-Eu7-Eu8-Eu9-Eu10-Eu11- Eu12-Eu13-Eu14-Eu15-Eu16-Eu17-Eu18-Eu19-Eu20-Eu21
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu10--Eu15--Eu17--Eu18 Andalusian29-----10.3--3.4---6.9---3.4----6.9-----3.4----65.5 ------------------------Eu6--Eu8--Eu9--Eu11--Eu19 Spa.Basque45-------2.2---2.2--4.4---2.2---88.9
---------------------------Eu9---Eu10---Eu19 French Basque22------9.1----4.5-----86.4
-------------------Eu4---Eu7---Eu9---Eu11--Eu18- Catalan24-------4.2----4.2----4.2----8.3----79.2
------------------Eu4--Eu7---Eu9--Eu10--Eu18--Eu20- French23-------8.7--17.4--13.0---4.3---52.2--4.3
-----------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu18--Eu19 Dutch27-------3.7--22.2---70.4--3.7
---------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu18--Eu19 German16--------6.2--37.5--50.0----6.2
--------------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu11--Eu14-Eu15--Eu16--Eu18--Eu19 Czech&Slovakian45---2.2--15.6--8.9---4.4----2.2---2.2----2.2----35.6---26.7
-------------------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9---Eu11--Eu18--Eu19 Central- north Italian50----2.0---8.0---14.0--10.0---62.0--4.0
-------------------Eu3-Eu4---Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu16-Eu17-Eu18--Eu20 Calabrian-37----2.7-13.5--21.6--10.8---8.0-----2.7---5.4----32.4---2.7
-----------------Eu1--Eu4--Eu6--Eu7--Eu8--Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu15--Eu18--Eu21 Sardinian-77--1.3--10.4--1.3---2.6--35.1--5.2---5.2---14.2---1.3-----22.1--1.3
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu11--Eu16--Eu18-Eu19- Croatian--58-------6.9---44.8--5.2---1.7----1.7----10.3-29.3
----------------------Eu3--Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu18--Eu19 Albanian--51-------2.0--21.6--19.6--23.5--4.0---2.0----17.6--9.8
-------------Eu3--Eu4--Eu6--Eu7--Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu15--Eu17--Eu18--Eu19 Greek76---1.3--22.4--1.3---7.9---21.0--1.3----2.6---1.3----1.3----27.6--11.8
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9-Eu10--Eu18-Eu19 Macedon.-20------15.0--20.0--15.0-5.0----10.0-35.0
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu18--Eu19 Polish-----55-------3.6--23.6----16.4--56.4
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu11--Eu17-Eu18-Eu19 Hungarian45-------8.9---11.1---2.2---2.2----2.2----13.3-60.0
------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu9--Eu11-Eu12--Eu14-Eu15--Eu18-Eu19--Eu20 Ukrainian-50---4.0---18.0---6.0---4.0---2.0-----6.0---2.0----2.0----54.0--2.0 ----------------Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu15--Eu16--Eu17--Eu18--Eu19--Eu21 Georgian63--33.3--3.2---30.1----1.6----1.6----1.6-----14.3--7.9-----6.3
--------------Eu3-Eu4-Eu7-Eu9-Eu10-Eu11-Eu14-Eu15-Eu16-Eu17-Eu18-Eu19-Eu201 Turkish30--3.3-13.3-3.3--40--3.3---6.6---3.3---3.3----3.3---3.3---6.6--6.6--3.3
----------------------Eu4--Eu6--Eu7---Eu9--Eu10--Eu11--Eu17--Eu18--Eu19 Lebanese31-------25.8--3.2--3.2----29.0--16.1---3.2----3.2----6.4-----9.7
----------------------Eu3-Eu4---Eu7---Eu9---Eu10--Eu12--Eu18-Eu19 Syrian----20-------10.0-10.0---5.0--15.0---30.0--5.0----15.0-10.0
----------------------Eu7----Eu14--Eu18--Eu19 Saami-----24-------41.7----41.7----8.3---8.3
----------------------Eu4--Eu7--Eu10--Eu13-Eu14--Eu16--Eu18--Eu19 Udmurt---43--------4.7---7.0---4.7----2.3---27.9---4.6----11.6--37.2
----------------------Eu7--Eu10--Eu13-Eu14--Eu16--Eu19 Mari------46--------4.3---6.5---4.3---65.2----6.5---13.0
Eu1-Eu3-Eu4-Eu6-Eu7-Eu8-Eu9-Eu10- Eu11-Eu12-Eu13-Eu14-Eu15-Eu16-Eu17-Eu18-Eu19-Eu20-Eu21
Total 1007 ............ * The haplotypes are defined by the following markers and the respective derived alleles: Eu1, M13-C; Eu3, YAP+, 4064-A; Eu4, YAP+, 4064-A, M35-C; Eu6, RPS4-T; Eu7, M89-T, M170-C; Eu8, M89-T, M170-C, M26-A; Eu9, M89-T, M172-G; Eu10, M89-T; Eu11, M89-T, M201-T; Eu12, M89-T, M69-C; Eu13, M89-T, M9-G, TAT-C; Eu14, M89-T, M9-G, TAT-C, M178-T; Eu15, M89-T, M9-G, M70-C; Eu16, M89-T, M9-G; Eu17, M89-T, M9-G, M11-G; Eu18, M89-T, M9-G, M45-A, M173-C; Eu19, M89-T, M9-G, M45-A, M173-C, M17(delG); Eu20, M89-T, M9-G, M45-A; Eu21, M89-T, M9-G, M45-A, M124-T. Haplotypes Eu2, Eu5, and Eu22 were not observed. Several samples were previously described (10, 11, 28) . Samples not previously examined included 23 French, 16 Germans, 39 northern Italians, 45 Sardinians, 58 Croats, 20 Macedonians from northern Greece, 55 Poles, 50 Ukrainians, 20 Syrians, 24 Saami, 43 Udmurts, and 46 Mari. Of the 22 haplotypes that constitute the phylogeny in Fig. 1 (top), Eu18 and Eu19 characterize about 50% of the European Y chromosomes. Although they share M173, the two haplotypes show contrasting geographic distribution. The frequency of Eu18 decreases from west to east, being most frequent in Basques (Fig. 1, bottom, and Table 1). This lineage includes the previously described proto-European lineage that is characterized by the 49a,f haplotype 15 (10). In contrast, haplotype Eu19, which is derived from the M173 lineage and is distinguished by M17, is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine, where Eu18 in turn is virtually absent. Both haplotypes Eu18 and Eu19 share the derived M45 allele. The lineage characterized by M3, common in Native Americans (12) and a few Siberian populations (15), is also a derivative of M45. This observation suggests that M173 is an ancient Eurasiatic marker that was brought by or arose in the group of Homo sapiens sapiens who entered Europe and diffused from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago (16, 17), spreading the Aurignac culture. This culture also appeared almost simultaneously in Siberia (17), from which some groups eventually migrated to the Americas. Its not the study thats smoke and mirrors, its your pernicious interpretation of it. Heres the summary of the haplotypes it involves., right from the text of the link you gave me: We interpret the differentiation and the distribution of haplotypes Eu18 and Eu19 as signatures of expansions from isolated population nuclei in the Iberian peninsula and the present Ukraine, following the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM). In fact, during this glacial period (20,000 to 13,000 years ago), human groups were forced to vacate Central Europe, with the exception of a refuge in the northern Balkans (16). Similar discrete patterns of the flora and fauna in Europe have been attributed to glaciation-modulated isolation followed by dispersal from climatic sanctuaries (18) . This scenario is also supported by the finding that the maximum variation for microsatellites linked to Eu19 is found in Ukraine (19). In turn, the maximum variation for microsatellites linked to 49a,f Ht15 and its derivatives (and then to the Eu18 lineage) is in the Iberian peninsula (19). This is consistent with the diffusion of M173-marked Eu18 from its refuge after the LGM, in agreement with mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup V and some of the H lineages (20). Haplotype Eu19 has been also observed at substantial frequency in northern India and Pakistan (12) as well as in Central Asia (12). Its spread may have been magnified by the expansion of the Yamnaia culture from the "Kurgan culture" area (present-day southern Ukraine) into Europe and eastward, resulting in the spread of the Indo-European language (21). An alternative hypothesis of a Middle Eastern origin of Indo-European languages was proposed on the basis of archaeological data (3). ---- Its not the study that is in error, but your pernicious interpretation of it, which implies that Albanians are NW for no reason other than the fact that they dont share a certain cluster of haplotypes with NW Euros. However judging by the chart, this seems only partially true at best anyhow. In fact the study realates EU 19 , which the Albanians have plenty of, directly to the Indo-European migrations. Further the chart indicates overlapping haplotypes with Albanians by most Euro peoples. Of course not every White group here shares these haplotypes in equal measure or at all, and unless you can link these haplotypes to some sort of racial trait, they do nothing to define race. All they do is suggest certain patterns of migration. Hence I in no way stand discredited. Further , I am not from SE Europe either, and am very sympathetic to both sides, and consider both totally White. Blanco
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:36:57 GMT -5
keulus(9/10/03 6:37 am) SUMMARY: ----------------- ------- Albanians are the most racially akin nation to the Turks and the Arabs of the Middle East in South-Eastern Europe, because they have the largest percentage of Eu9-Eu10-Eu11. -------- Although there are undoubtedly a few outstanding individuals in Albania, somewhat resembling the Central and Northern Europeans in terms of outward appearance, they are I think the minority, and the exception that proves the rule rather than constituting the rule itself. -------- Taking as an example those few Albanians who have a greater percentage of Germano-Slavic heritage and trying to convince people that most Albanians are like them, is absurd. c. A few thoughts on the racial makeup of Greece and the rest of the European Mediterranean countries: ------------------------------------------------------- On the contrary, the Greeks that retained their religion, even if bordering with Turkey, succeded in receiving less Turkik Middle-Eastern blood, but still they have almost a quarter, that is 24.9%. Having been to Italy and Greece for vacations and historical research repeatedly in the past, I have seen quite a few blond and blue-eyed Greeks, especially in Thessalonica. On my asking where they come from, they would say that they came from some region in Greek Macedonia, or Thessaly, Sterea Hellas, and Crete. Pelloponesian blond & blue-eyed people a few and far between it seems. Given the fact that the Greeks appear to have 20% percent of Germanic/Slavic blood, it is obvious that such people exist in Greece, although it can't be said that they are all Slavic in heritage, nor that they are the majority. Ancient Greek history contains quite a few examples of blond & blue-eyed individuals, like Alcibiades the Athenian, Pericles the Athenian, Menelaus the Spartan, Agamemnon the Mycenean, Achilles the Thessalian, King Pyrrus of Epirus, King Alexander the Great of Macedonia, and so on. It is almost certain that the genetic makeup of the Ancient Greeks differs substantially from the one we see today. i. Roman/Latin & Euro-Celtic EU18 the predominant common genetic trait amongst the Greeks------------------------------------------------------- In any case, the Greeks differ substantially from the Albanians, in that the predominant genetic influence in their blood, is the Western European Roman/Latin & Celtic EU 18, whereas in the case of Albanians it was the Turkik-Middle Eastern Eu9-10-11. Greece has one of the highest percentage of EU 18 outside of Italy in Eastern Europe, excluding perhaps Romania. Given the fact that it is known from history that the IE Latins and the IE Hellenes invaded the Greek and Italian peninsulas respectively, roughly in the same time frame, it would appear that these two IE people share a common genetic heritage [EU 18], which could explain the many similarities in religion, language, and culture. SUMMARY: ------------------ ---------- The most substantial common genetic trait of Modern Greeks, is the Roman/Latin & Euro-Celtic EU18. ii. Turkik & Middle Eastern EU9-10-11 ------------------------------------------------------ The second largest influence in the Greek Genetic Pool, is the Turkik & Middle Eastern Eu9-10-11. To be more precise 24.9%. What is truly amazing here, is that contrary to the popular opinion, Greece does not have that much Eu9-10-11 considering its geographic location and its occupation by the Turks. ---------This should be attributed undoubtedly, to the indomitable spirit of the Greek people, which clung to their traditions, history and religion as much as possible, thus effectively reducing the Turco-Arabic influence as much as possible. It is hard not to admire the Greeks for that, given that they had been abandoned by everyone, just like the rest of Christian South-East Europe was. In the above connection, regions located to the west of Greece appear to have received a larger influx of Turco-Middle Eastern blood: -Calabria [ITA-Magna Grecia] 40.4% -Central & Northern Italians, appear to have nearly the same percentage of Turco-Arabic blood as the Greeks: 24.0% (another amazing similarity between the two peoples). -Catalanians [ES] have 12.5% -Georgians [former SU] have a staggering 67.3%, that makes them the closest blood relatives to the Turks who have 50%. Some Slavic Peoples: Yugoslavic Macedonians 20%, Croatians 6.7%, Checho-Slovakians 13.3%. SUMMARY: ----------------- --------- The Greeks have almost the same percentage of Eu9-10-11 as the Italians do. iii. Greco/Cretan-Phoenician EU4: From this haplotype's low occurence in Syria, Turkey and the remainder of the Middle-East except from Lebanon, it can be inferred that this gene is not predominant there. It's high occurence in Lebanon is a problem though. Let us see, can we solve it through history? --------Lebanon has a large Christian minority of 25%. --------Lebanon was once a part of Phoenicia & Philistaea. Let us see, who are the Philistines?Philistines, inhabitants of Palestine. They lived after about the 12th century BC on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, southwest of Judea. According to the Old Testament, they came from Caphtor, which may be identified with Crete.
Encarta® 98 Desk Encyclopedia .. 1996-97 Microsoft Corporation.---------Idomeneas King of Crete took part in the War of Troy along with the rest of the Greeks, ca. 1260 B.C. I don't think that anybody can doubt that he was just as Greek as Menelaus and Agamemnon. The Linear B script tablets and the worship of Godess Athena that originated at Crete, is the most absolute proof of that. Thus if the Philistines are Cretan Greeks, which they are, it is clear why Eu4 is found in abudance amongst the Christian population of Lebanon. Historical evidence seems to suggest that the Eu4 haplotype is a haplotype which in recent history can be firmly associated with the Greeks. Indeed, today Greeks have 22.4% of this haplotype. Its occurence in Turkey, Syria, the Balkans, and Magna Grecia [Calabria, Southern Italy] coincides with the Greek Expansion through the ages. It can be safely assumed that the Greeks were the original bearers of the Eu4 in Historical Times, and transmitted it in the areas which they heavily influenced. It is perhaps ironic that the Albanians have the largest percentage of Eu4 outside Greece in Europe (21.6%). That not only shows that they were heavily influenced genetically by the Greeks, but agrees with ancient and medieval history as well. SUMMARY: --------------- --------- The Eu4 haplotype which in what we call "Historical Times" can be firmly associated with the Cretan Greeks through historical evidence, is the third dominant genetic influence of the Greeks (22.4%). It is also dominant in the Albanians (21.6%) a fact that clearly demonstrates the heavy genetic influence of the Greeks on the Albanians. iv. EU19: Slavic blood in GreeceDoubtless the result of numerous Slavic invasions in Greece, and close historical ties with Serbia and the Russians, also known as Ros or Rus. The Greeks have almost 12% of the Slavic haplotype Eu19. v. Eu7 & Eu 8: Germano-Slavic blood in Greece: As we see, Modern Greece and the rest of Celtic & Roman Europe have a low percentage of Germano-Slavic blood. However the existense of Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in Greece along with the fact that it is also found in neighbouring SE Europe countries like Croatia, Serbia, FYROM, and Albania, seems to indicate and/or even suggest that in antiquity, the percentage of the Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in the Greek population was higher as well. This 19% of Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in Albania, is no doubt the reason that some Albanians think too highly of themselves, disregarding the rest of their Genetic Data as outlined above. However, there is a more substantial presence of the Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in neighbouring Slavic countries, like Croatia (staggering 44.8%), Serbia (greater than 25%), FYROM (20%), so it would seem that if a people wanted to present themselves as Nordic, then the Yugoslavs would have more right to do so considering their dominant genetic characteristic of Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes, than the Albanians for instance, who not only have the lowest percentage of Germano-Slavic blood in the Slavic Balkans, but also are the Turks' closest genetic kinsmen in Europe. Keulus SOURCE: --------------- -----------a. Anthropological Data: From the work of the foll. Anthropologists: Ornella Semino, Giuseppe Passarino, Peter J. Oefner, Alice A. Lin, Svetlana Arbuzova, Lars E. Beckman, Giovanna De Benedictis, Paolo Francalacci, Anastasia Kouvatsi, Svetlana Limborska, Mladen Marcikiæ, Anna Mika, Barbara Mika, Dragan Primorac, A. Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti, L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Peter A. Underhill. ...As it appears here: website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/se4308962001.gifFrom: www.sciencemag.org/Published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, with assistance of Stanford University's HighWire PressCopyright © 2003 by the American Association for the Advancement of Science. ------------b. Historical Data i. From Microsoft Encarta 1998 Also consulted: ii. University Of Cambridge UK, History of Ancient Civilisations
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:37:59 GMT -5
Richard(9/10/03 6:49 am) Albanians have 23.5% eu9 to the Greeks' 21%. Albanians have 4.0% eu10 to the Greeks' 1.3% Albanians have 2.0% eu11 to the Greeks' 2.6% Turks have 40% eu9/3.3% eu10/6.6% eu11 Not that it really matter since... Therefore, haplotypes Eu4, Eu9, Eu10, and Eu11 represent the male contribution of a demic diffusion of farmers from the Middle East to Europe. The contribution of the Neolithic farmers to the European gene pool seems to be more pronounced along the Mediterranean coast than in Central Europe. This is evident from Fig. 2, in which we have plotted the frequencies of haplotypes Eu4, Eu9, Eu10, and Eu11 against the geographic distances from the Middle East for each population. The regression line accounting for Mediterranean populations has a slope that is significantly different from the other populations, indicating that the diffusion of Neolithic farmers affected Southern more than Central Europe.website.lineone.net/~usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/Quite frankly, the groups we refer to as the Turks today did not exist when there were neolithic farmers so I would not call any groups presented here is Turkics since racially such population is in minority in Anatolia itself. Turks appear to be most similar to Georgiansthus Caucassus region (and I am aware the Sforza put Turks to be the closest to Cypriot Greeks and Armenians who are of Phrygo-thracian origin and close causins to ancient Hellenes). Thus Turks do have several markers that associate it with the region as do Albanians.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:38:54 GMT -5
Logic (9/10/03 6:59 am)
All in all a lot of information that needs to be dissected very carefully (Richard has some good points about nonexistence of so called 'Turkic markers') and a last thing we need is to jump to conclusions although Keulus made some very interesting comments and good points as well. It does appear also that Slavic genes are of minor importance in balkanic countries such as Macedonia and I would certainly assume Serbia and even more so Bulgaria although I seem not to be able to find data on those.
Also I am curious as far as how would the results appear if the given populations would be taken into account as a combination of total markers and as such compared to other populations and who would turn out related to who. All in all nice and complex topic.
PS: I would love to do Serbs here but I do not have the data, I would be grateful is Highduke would write down all the EU (only EU markers) markers Serbs have so I can do it later. Write it down by its official name not Aryan, etc. but with official name such as EU18 etc.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:43:12 GMT -5
shpata (9/10/03 9:53 pm)
i use the numbers that overlap, lets use the way first....
------e3----e4----e5----e6----e7----e8----e9----e11---e12
mace-20---20----30----10----19-----0-----0-----0------1 alb---0-----0-----0-----0-----0------40----40---19------1
overlap is only at e12. which both numbers are one, thus only 1% similarity.
now the more complicated data.........
------e3----e4---e5---e6---e7---e8---e9---e11---e12--e13
mace-1.4---50.2--6.4--20----0----0----0----22-----15---5 alb---3.5----25.5--1----5----20---30---0----10-----0----5
when we two types of genes in both populations (overlapping, you take the number of percentage that the population match thus the smallest number). for example there are 1.4% of maces gene pool that has the e3. can albies fill that 1.4% cup?? yes they can. the next one, there are 50.2% of maces gene pool e4, can albies fill that 50.2% cup?? no they can only fill it half way up(25.5%) so 25.5 is added to the list and so on....................
----1.4---25.5----1----5-----0----0---0----10----0----5 add them up 1.4+25.5+1+5+10+5=47.9% similarity.
if the genetic data provided above is true, then greeks and albs are close cousins. perhaps the closest compared to the surrounding people. The greek differences with other nationalities are usually only 0-6% away from the alb ones. (thus also showing similarity).
----
Albanians and Greeks
Population n----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------Eu1-Eu3-Eu4-Eu6-Eu7-Eu8-Eu9-Eu10-Eu11....-Eu18-Eu19- Albanian--51------------2.0-21.6------19.6------23.5-4.0---2.0------17.6--9.8 Greek-----76------------1.3-22.4-1.3--7.9-------21.0-1.3---2.6------27.6-11.8 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------1.3-21.6------7.9-------21----1.3--2.0------17.6-9.8 1.3+21.6+7.9+21+1.3+2.0+17.6+9.8 = 82.5%
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From AAdmin to Shpata and other readers: To avoid confusion I erased some replies that appeared to contain information that was just being repeated later (in the approaching replies). Shpata's explanation (to his now erased data that was later repeated by logic) in effect explains logic's numbers posted bellow.
Simply put -- keep on reading and you will see all the data.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:44:28 GMT -5
logic (9/11/03 12:21 am)
After examining shpata's work I must admit that shpata's method is mathematically superior and I believe it to be the best measure of genetic similarity since it does go into detail with including the individual percentage similarities (taking the smaller one into account of course) within each marker and all markers have to be taken into account since it is all the given markers that compose a given population.
Albanian percentage sequence appear to be genetically very close to that of the Greeks thus making these two populations closely related for whatever that might mean as there also appears to be a close relation between Albanians and Greeks with Lebanese (all three were ancient Hellenic regions, first Hellenistic Illyrian-closely related to Proto-hellenic Brygians, second Hellas, third Cretan Philistines).
I still would want Highduke to present data (as I stated with EU'marker' specification rather than 'Aryan' marker, etc.) for Serbs and Bulgarians so I can view similarities (this time using Shpata's method).
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:48:28 GMT -5
Logic(9/11/03 3:06 am) percentage sequence similarity with Albanians
Greek...........82.5% Macedon......73.4% Lebanese.....70.4% Syrian...........64.8% Calabrian......60.7% Turkish.........60.6% Czech and Slovakian.....56.1% Croatian.......53.5% Georgian......50.9% Italian............47.6% Hungarian....47.3% Polish............43% Udmurt..........37.1% Saami...........36.2% Ukrainian......32% Mari..............18.1%
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percentage sequence similarity with Greeks
Albanian.......82.5% Lebanese.....69.2% Calabrian......68.6% Czech and Slovakian......62.3% Macedon......61% Georgian......60.8% Turkish.........58.6% C.& N. Italian.58.1% Syrian..........57.6% Andalusian...52.1% Hungarian....47.6% Croatian.......43.8% Polish...........39.7% Udmurt.........36.4% Saami...........24.5%
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percentage sequence similarity with Central and Northern Italians
Catalan..........80.7% Dutch.............75.7% French...........75.2% Andalusian....74.3% Fr.Basque......66.5% Sp.Basque.....66.2% German..........64% Greeks...........58.1% Calabrian........56.4% Albanians.......47.6% Sardinian.......41.9%----- Geg Toska (9/11/03 3:11 am)
I am lost. feels like I am in a biology class ----- shpata (9/11/03 4:00 am)
its just math whose result have biological/anthropological meaning. ------ logic(9/11/03 4:06 am) percentage sequence similarity with Macedonians
Albanians........73.4% Croatian.........71.4% Polish.............68.6% Hungarian.......67.2% Ukrainian........65% Greeks...........61% Lebanese.......54.3% Turkish..........48.1% Georgian........36.1%
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percentage sequence similarity with Croatians (judging by the results more than likely from Pannonia or North Croatia)
Macedon........71.4% Polish............66.8% Czech and Slovakian.......61.7% Ukrainian.......60.2% German.........60.2% Albanian........53.5% Hungarian......53.2% Greeks..........43.8% Turkish..........32% C.& N. Italian..31.2% Georgian........26.7%
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percentage sequence similarity with Turks
Lebanese............68.2% Georgian.............61.1% Albanians............60.6% Greeks...............58.6% Syrian................48.1% Macedonians.......48.1% C.& N. Italian.......36.5% Croatians............32%
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percentage sequence similarity with Lebanese
Albanians.....70.4% Greeks.........69.2% Turks..........68.2% Syrian.........60.4% Macedons....54.3% Georgian......51.3%
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 1, 2008 18:55:14 GMT -5
Logic(9/11/03 4:27 am) to simplify Conclusion: First I firmly believe that any given population should be judged as a combination of all the genetic markers since it is all these markers that make up a given population. Such a combination of a given population should be compared using shpata's method (there you go shpata you became part of illyria forum genetics terminology ) to another population. AlbaniansAlbanians, genetically speaking, have a very similar sequence of markers with Greeks thus making these two populations mutually genetically related. First five nations related to Albanians (Greek, Macedonians, Lebanese, Syrian, Calabrian, Turkish) can all be explained through the Greek factor within all of them (Many Macedonian Slavs are racially/culturally similar to Greeks, Lebanese are at liest partly Philistines, Syria had a strong Greek presence, Calabrians are mainly remnants of Magna Graecia population while Anatolian Turks are mainly Turmenized Greeks). Albanians are more than likely descended from Hellenistic Illyrians (either the same element or very closely related with older Proto-hellenic Brygians in the same region while there was also direct Greek colonization here in southern Illyria) whose old Hellenic language has changed through history (under different influences) to become what it is today. GreeksMost of the top nations related genetically to Greeks can be explained historically as well. Albanian have been explained already, as have Lebanese, Calabrians, Macedonians, Turks, Syrians while there is certainly relation to some extent at liest with Italians. ----------- AAdmin (9/11/03 6:46 am)
I erased some topics that appeared to contain information that was just being repeated later. The one that was neatly posted and in in the least space possible (this also helps in preventing confusion among the readers) remains while I left shpata's explanation (to his now erased data that was later repeated by logic thus in effect shpata's explanation explains logics numbers) followed by logic's neat postings of data.
Discussion can resume. ---------- Logic(9/13/03 9:08 pm) I firmly believe that population of Greece is not Semitic nor related to Semitic's (E. Med element in Greece is associated with Minoans). I also believe that populations in Turkey are not Semitic nor big chunk of a population (for most part) in Lebanon and in W. Syria (where we are talking about Semitized Byzantines, Romans and Philistines). Anybody that has seen Syrians and Lebanese can state with certainty that many of these people do not have a same or even (for most part) similar physical appearance with most of the true Arab Med Semites of say Yemen or rest of Arabian Peninsula. Thus these two populations cannot be of the identical origin. Lebanon has a strong Dinarized Med element (again associated with Greeks) that doesnt exist (outside W. Syria) in any region in Arabian penisula. My point is very clear and that is that most of Balkan and Anatolian populations are of Hellenic origin as well as around a third of Lebanon and W.Syria. Eastern Roman Empire counted 30 million people one and a half millenium ago. Hellenic Anatolia counted 15 million people at the time Turkics (already mixed with Persians and counting 2-3 million tops) arrived there millenium or so ago. These Turkics were centered and populated central Anatolia (same location one finds Turanids) while coastal and western Turkey remained Hellenic racially (whether in a form of dinarized Meds or eastern Meds). Bulgarians and Slavomacedonians are nothing more than mainly slavized Byzantine Greeks (again both racially and culturally) while Albanians (although their language creation remains enigma) are descended from Hellenistic Phrygo-Illyrians as are most of Serbs (who are in turn slavized Hellenistic Phrygo-Illyrians or mainly Dinaric race). -Dinarized Meds (30% of W.Syria and Lebanon, 40% of Turkey, 60% of South Italy) -Arab Meds (55% of Syria and Lebanon, More than 60% in Arabia) -Armenoids (15% in Syria, Lebanon) -Turanids (15% of Turkey) -Irano-Afghans (15% of Turkey) phoenicia.org/anthropology.html-Most of Greece are three types; Alpines, Meds and intermediate or Dinarized Med. --------- shpata(9/17/03 6:54 pm) i noticed highduke hasnt given the data yet but i can draw some conclusions by a piece of it i already have. in the above posts which addmin has pasted from some other forum i found the following quote........ This 19% of Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in Albania, is no doubt the reason that some Albanians think too highly of themselves, disregarding the rest of their Genetic Data as outlined above.
However, there is a more substantial presence of the Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes in neighboring Slavic countries, like Croatia (staggering 44.8%), Serbia (greater than 25%), FYROM (20%), so it would seem that if a people wanted to present themselves as Nordic, then the Yugoslavs would have more right to do so considering their dominant genetic characteristic of Germano-Slavic Eu7 & Eu8 haplotypes, than the Albanians for instance, who not only have the lowest percentage of Germano-Slavic blood in the Slavic Balkans, but also are the Turks' closest genetic kinsmen in Europe.
and from highduke we know that the slavic-balto or Eu19 gene is 16% wheres as in greece is 11.8%. the Eu7 and Eu8 is 25% in serbia(actually it says greater than 25 above but we do not know the decimal or fraction ill settle for 25) where as in greece is 7.9%. from this i can draw conclusions of how much the possibility of serb-greek relation is. 16-11.8=4.2% difference. 25-7.9=17.1% 17.1+4.2=21.3% difference ALREADY!!!!!!!! so at best serbs could be (100-21.3=78.7%) 78.7% similar only if the other Eu genes are 100% match(which i highly doubt)!!!! great news, serbs are already off the competion list. now we need bulgars, rumanians, ad iranians(ive read somewhere iranians are also close to greeks genetically).
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yll
New Member
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Post by yll on Aug 9, 2008 13:37:09 GMT -5
Wiki : R1b(Celto-Basque) : Al : 17.6 % Ks : 21.1 % Gr : 11.7 % --------------------------- R1a(Slavic) : Al : 9.8 % Ks : 4.4 % Gr : 15.6 % --------------------------- I(Crimean) : Al : 23.6 % Ks : 2.7 % Gr : 19.5 % --------------------------- E(Anatolian) : Al : 23.6 % E1b(Thracian) Ks : 45.6 % E1b(Thracian) Gr : 31.6 % E1a(Arabic) --------------------------- J(Caucasian) : Al : 27.5 % Ks : 16.7 % Gr : 38.9 % --------------------------- G(Gypses/Romani/Synthes) : Al : 2.0 % Ks : 0.0 % Gr : 10.9 % --------------------------- T(Jews) : Al : 0.0 % Ks : 0.0 % Gr : 2.6 % --------------------------- The final results don't gone be 100% , because the studiers , study only theyr own Y-chromosome group and , the people who has been studied are not the same for sure !
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bato2
Moderator
Art Changed The World
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Post by bato2 on May 20, 2009 10:32:44 GMT -5
Read here European Journal of Human Genetics (2000) 8, 480–486 y © 2000 Macmillan Publishers Ltd All rights reserved 1018–4813/00 www.nature.com/ejhgARTICLE Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populationsMichele Belledi1, Estella S Poloni2, Rosa Casalotti1, Franco Conterio1, Ilia Mikerezi3, James Tagliavini1 and Laurent Excoffier2 1Dipartimento di Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale, Universit`a di Parma, Italy; 2D´epartement d’Anthropologie et Ecologie, Universit´e de Gen`eve, Switzerland; 3Fakulteti I Shkenkave Natyrore, Universiteti I Tiranes, Albania Mitochondrial DNA HV1 sequences and Y chromosome haplotypes (DYS19 STR and YAP) were characterised in an Albanian sample and compared with those of several other Indo-European populations from the European continent. No significant difference was observed between Albanians and most other Europeans, despite the fact that Albanians are clearly different from all other Indo-Europeans linguistically.We observe a general lack of genetic structure among Indo-European populations for both maternal and paternal polymorphisms, as well as low levels of correlation between linguistics and genetics, even though slightly more significant for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA. Altogether, our results show that the linguistic structure of continental Indo-European populations is not reflected in the variability of the mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers. This discrepancy could be due to very recent differentiation of Indo-European populations in Europe and/or substantial amounts of gene flow among these populations. www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...f/5200443a.pdfEuropean Journal of Human Genetics (2000) 8, 480–486. www.nature.com/ejhg/index.html“Survey of anthropological features of the Illyrians": "The purpose of this paper is to bring to evidence the physical traits of the ancient inhabitants of Albania, the Illyrians, through an anthropological study of 93 human skeletons of different periods. Based on the available typological data the author comes to the conclusion that the Illyrians of the Albanian territory constituted an Adriatic-Mediterranean population with Nordic and Alpine minorities. The results of this study throw light on certain historical phenomena, which are linked with the origin and formation of the Illyrians" This survey have shown that Albanians of today are the direct descendents of Illirian-Thraco race! Link: Survey of anthropological features of the Illyrian...[Anthropol Anz. 1987] - PubMed Result Stuyin 6 universitete: 1-Charite - Universitaetsmedizin Berlin, Medizinische Bibliothek, Germany 2-Universitaets- und Landesbibliothek Duesseldorf, Germany 3-Biblioteche Universitarie e dell' Area di Bologna , ITALI
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Post by bosna505 on Apr 6, 2010 11:17:16 GMT -5
BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS!!!
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bato2
Moderator
Art Changed The World
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Post by bato2 on Apr 12, 2010 13:59:12 GMT -5
BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS!!! Bosnians are slavs
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Post by bosna505 on Apr 16, 2010 11:03:31 GMT -5
Albanians have more Slavic Blood than Bosnians Albanians have Slavic Names like Krasniqi this Name is from Slavic Name Krasnic and many other things connect albanians with Slavs more than Bosnians with Slavs albanians must learn to look thwe truth in Eyes and not only live in Fantasys.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
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Post by MiG on Apr 16, 2010 12:52:36 GMT -5
^ Alright, since Albanians have more Slavic in them than Bosnians; What's your last name? Or at least, what does it end with?
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Post by Username on Apr 16, 2010 14:12:43 GMT -5
bosna505 seems like a less radical tito.. as stupid as he seems to be, it is nice to have someone like him on the forums.. someone's gotta fill the void but yeah, we are Slavs bosna!
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Post by redbaron on Apr 16, 2010 22:52:25 GMT -5
BOSNIANS ARE ILLYRIANS!!! Which Bosnians? Cause Croatians and Bosnians Muslims don't care that much and are happy with their identities.
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Post by bosna505 on Apr 17, 2010 5:52:12 GMT -5
bosna505 seems like a less radical tito.. as stupid as he seems to be, it is nice to have someone like him on the forums.. someone's gotta fill the void but yeah, we are Slavs bosna! You Slavs??? Okay Why Not I have only said albanians have some slav influence like Names, Blood but you said you feel slav than i will accept it.
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Post by bosna505 on Apr 17, 2010 5:57:13 GMT -5
I will said one thing Adem Jashari or Adem Jasarevic its the absolut same but Krasnic or Krasniqi is orgin Slavic.
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bato2
Moderator
Art Changed The World
Posts: 1,352
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Post by bato2 on Apr 17, 2010 7:48:37 GMT -5
I will said one thing Adem Jashari or Adem Jasarevic its the absolut same but Krasnic or Krasniqi is orgin Slavic. Dude you jut getting anoying...Illyrian troll
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