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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 16:01:26 GMT -5
Hellenas (in 'DNA of Cyrpiots' topic) Both Thracians and Dacians were anthropologically Hellenes. Correct plus Illyrians (judging by what Coon said here carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-02.htm ) were originally Doloco-Cephalic group ( mainly Danubians with Corded influence). They appear brachi-cephalized later by Capadocian/Alpine stabilized blend called Dinarics and or Alpines. The Illyrians (Chapter VI, section 2) "The Hallstatt crania from Austria, including those from the type site itself, form a reasonably homogeneous, entirely long-headed group. 16 (See Appendix I, col. 32.) This group is the legitimate, local successor to the Aunjetitz, and like the latter it resembles the Danubian Neolithic series in many respects. " "Let us turn to the specific problem of the Illyrian racial composition. So far, we have been dealing entirely with the Hallstatt remains from Lower Austria. The Hallstatt cemetery itself dates from the middle and later thirds of the period; but the neighboring Early Hallstatt site of Statzendorf, from which a series of five crania have been taken, contains nothing but long-headed examples, and these are the same as those from the type site itself. So the Hallstatt site is racially typical of the entire period." "When we move to southern Germany, however, which was equally involved in the development of this culture, we find no such racial uniformity. Crania from Württemburg, Bavaria, and the Bavarian Palatinate include, with the usual Austrian Hallstatt type, a large minority of brachycephals which may be considered as survivals from the Bronze Age. 18 These include both planoccipital crania of the original Bell Beaker type, and a curvoccipital brachycephalic type which shows a Borreby relationship. It would appear, then, that in southwestern Germany, Hallstatt Nordics had invaded the region and had mixed with the Bell Beaker Dinarics and the old Borreby sub-stratum. " "Let us turn southeastward and follow the Dinaric Alpine chain in the direction of the Balkans. In the mountainous section of southern Austria, the Hallstatt Nordic type is in the minority. Out of six skulls from Carniola, three are round headed and one is mesocephalic. The brachycephalic types seem without question to be predominantly Dinaric. In Croatia, however, seven adult skulls are all long healded, of the usual Hallstatt type, while two infantile skulls show brachycephaly" In Bosnia, we come to the famous site of Glasinac, 21 where a comparatively large series of relatively late Illyrian remains contains again a mixture of types. The majority of the skulls are long headed and these show the same mixture of Danubian and Corded elements which we have already seen at Hallstatt itself. A few of the individual crania are very large, and reproduce the Corded prototype quite accurately. The brachycephalic skulls, although in the minority, are numerous enough to permit one to determine their racial affiliation with some accuracy. Almost all belong to what might be called a modern Dinaric racial type. The skulls are moderately large with flattened occiputs, straight side walls, rather broad foreheads, and a very prominent nose, in the one instance in which the nasal bones were preserved. 22 The jaws are very broad with an excessive bigonial diameter, but not noted for their depth. "Metrically, these brachycephalic crania resemble the Bronze Age series from Cyprus, but are, on the whole, a little larger. They fall, as a matter of fact, into an intermediate position between the Cyprus series and the Bell Beaker group from the upper Rhineland, but in morphology are identical with both. There is no doubt that we are dealing in this instance with a form of Dinaric which anticipates the modern population of Bosnia." "This is the first occurrence of crania of this type in the Dinaric Alpine region in any considerable numbers. We have already seen, however, that this same type had entered these mountains by the beginning of the Bronze Age, in connection with the eastward movement of the Bell Beaker peoples. The round-heads at Glasinac and in Carniola may have been the descendants of these Bell Beaker refugees. It is also possible that this racial type may have been reënforced by migrations from the southeast, but there is no archaeological evidence to favor such a theory. " "As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today. In a small series of early Christian crania from a site near Split on the Dalmatian coast, 23 both Dinaric brachycephals and a few long-headed crania are represented. In Albania, a country which is almost completely unknown archaeologically, a single skull which belonged to a Romanized Illyrian group has been found in an Iron Age site in the tribe of Puka. 24 This skull is mesocephalic, and seems, insofar as we may judge, intermediate between the Illyrians of the old type and Dinarics. " "The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one. By this term we must understand that the Illyrian central type was similar in cranial dimensions, proportions, and general form to that of the Germans of the Völkerwanderung period. Historical evidence as to the pigmentation of the Illyrians is conflicting, 25 and insufficient to warrant the formation of an opinion on this matter. This "Nordic" type is no special or separate race, but merely a variant of the larger Mediterranean family, of an intermediate metrical position. " "It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients. " carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-02.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 16:03:34 GMT -5
Related topics Greeks show influences, among others, by Danubians (like Illyrians), Corded (like Illyrians) and Cypriot Dinarics ('Illyrian' dinarics morphology is compared to that of this type as identical and this Cypriot Dinaric type is original Dinaric type as we know it today in western Balkans). Chapter V, section 4) The Greeks In the early Metal Age, immigrants from the Cycladic islands, of Asia Minor origin, introduced copper to Greece, with the mother goddess cult, and settled on either side of the Isthmus of Corinth. In the meanwhile, Painted Pottery people of Danubian cultural origin came down to Greece from the north, driven by Corded people. Thus, by 2000 B.C., there were, from the cultural standpoint, three elements in the Greek population: (a) local Neolithic Mediterranean; (b) Danubian from the north; (c) Cycladic people of eventual Asia Minor origin. Between 2000 B.C. and the period of Homer, Greece was invaded three times more: (a) the Corded people (Myres calls them “Kurgan” people), who came from the north about 1900 B.C., and who, Myres thinks,20 may have brought the Indo-European basis of Hellenic speech; (b) by Minoans from Crete, who founded the “long genealogies”; dynasties of rulers at Thebes, Athens, Mycenae, and elsewhere. Most of these entered Greece about 1400 B.C., although some may have dated back to 1700 B.C.; (c) by “divineborn” foreigners, such as Atreus, Pelops, etc., who came from across the Aegean in ships, learned Greek, usurped thrones, and married the daughters of the kings of Minoan ancestry. The skeletal record can, in part, supplement the evidence of reconstructed history. Six skulls from Hagias Kosmas near Athens represent the period of amalgamation of Neolithic Mediterranean, Danubian, and Cycladic elements, between 2500 and 2200 B.C.21 Three are dolichocephalic, one mesocephalic, and two brachyceplialic. The faces of all are narrow, the noses leptorrhine, the orbits high. One may conclude that a Cretan type of Mediterranean and the Cypriote Dinaric form were both present. The long heads are not of uniform type; some, with large vaults and strong browridges, with deep nasion depressions, remind one of the larger varieties of Neolithic dolichocephals, of both Long Barrow and Corded types; and Fürst feels that a number of them are very similar to the Late Neolithic crania from Scandinavia, of about equal age. Needless to say, both Corded and Megalithic people were present in Denmark and Sweden at about this time. Forty-one Late Helladic skulls, dated between 1500 and 1200 B.C., and coming likewise from Argolis, may include those of some of the “divineborn” invaders. Among these, one-fifth are brachycephalic, and apparently largely of the Cypriote Dinaric type. Of the long-headed skulls, a large number belongs now to the larger, more heavily marked varieties, and fewer to the smaller Mediterranean The similarity to the northern types, and especially to the Corded, is even stronger than before. This increase in a non-Minoan direction may perhaps be attributed to the arrival of the ancestors of Homer's heroes. This survey carries it,, through the Bronze Age. The racial history of Greece in full classical time is not as well documented as that of the periods just studied. Until the inception of the slave trade23 in Athens and other centers of manufacture and export, there can, however, have been little population change. In Argolis, the Mediterranean racial element is the only one clearly shown in six proto-geometric and “Hellenic” crania.24 According to Koumaris's compilation of cranial indicies,25 mesocephaly reigned everywhere in Greece during the classical period, and into Hellenistic and Roman times. The mean index for Athens in the great period was 75.6, on 30 crania. This mesocephaly probably conceals the presence of a varied racial amalgam, with Mediterranean strains predominant. The Greek colonies in Asia Minor show much the same combination of types which we have seen in Greece itself.26 Mixture with Asiatics must have been masked by the essential racial similarity of the populations on either side of the Aegean. The Minoan convention of a high-rooted nose and a lithe body passed over into classical Greece as an artistic ideal, but the portrait busts of individuals show that it cannot have been common in life. Villains, comical characters, satyrs, centaurs, giants, and all unpleasant people and those not to be admired, are often shown in sculpture and in vase painting as broad-faced, snub-nosed, and heavily bearded. Socrates, who belonged to this type, was maliciously compared to a satyr. This type may still be found its Greece, and is an ordinary Alpine. In the early skeletal, remains it is represented by some of the brachycephalic crania. On the whole, one is impressed, after looking at the portrait busts of Athenians, and the clay masks of Spartans, with their resemblance to present-day western Europeans. This resemblance becomes less marked in the art of the Byzantines, however, where modern near Eastern faces are more frequent; but the Byzantines lived mostly outside of Greece. As will be shown later (Chapter XI, section 14), the modern inhabitants of Greece itself differ surprisingly little from their classical predecessors. carnby.altervista.org/troe/05-04.htm------------- MinoansThis type (akin to ancient Egyptians and very culturally advanced for its time) has contributed to Greek composition and it is distant from Illyrians, Thracians, Macedonians and generally much of original Hellenic types due to the apparent Egyptian influence. (Chapter V, section 3) The Minoans The earliest land to receive metal which is considered part of Europe was Crete, and there the Bronze Age Minoan civilization began a century or two before 3000 B.C. Crete had been occupied in earlier times by Neolithic peoples, of whom unfortunately no physical traces remain. The Metal Age was introduced by immigrants from two directions—from the Egyptian Delta, about the time that Menes was extending his power northward, and from the mainland of Asia, presumably from Palestine. The Cretan manner of metal-working was largely of Asiatic rather than of Egyptian inspiration.14 Although Neolithic remains are absent, the Minoan Age is represented by one hundred and more skulls, and a smaller number of long bones,15 as well as a considerable body of very realistic fresco painting and sculpture in the round. The Cretan skulls found at various sites on the island belong to a fairly uniform type; this is a small Mediterranean variety with a mean cranial index of about 72. Metrically, they could fit perfectly into a number of Egyptian collections, from the Naqada predynastic to the Middle Empire. On the whole, these Cretan crania are a little smaller, shorter-faced, and less leptorrhine than the majority of the Egyptian series, and show leanings in the direction of the Copper Age skulls from Alishar, and the Early Bronze Age ones from Palestine. The mean type was somewhere between Danubian, Cappadocian, and Egyptian forms. That this was a short-statured variety of Mediterranean race is shown by the long bones; local means vary from 156 to 162 cm. Hence, the Cretans were shorter than the Egyptians as well as lower faced. The bodily build of the Cretans is well known from fresco painting and sculpture; the local ideal of a small waist and wiry, light, but vigorous musculature, which occurs so constantly in the Minoan art, must have been based to a large extent on reality. Nevertheless, there was a variant minority with broad bodies, and, in the women, large breasts;16 this departure from the usual Mediterranean form was also seen in Egypt, and does not necessarily imply the presence of an alien race. The Minoans were prevailingly brunet in hair and eye color, but in Late Minoan times, at least, blondism was known, but apparently not common.17 The skin is represented by Minoan painters as a deep terra cotta for men, and white for women. This exaggerates the difference between outdoor and indoor habits of life. It again reflects Egyptian influence. The Egyptians, however, rarely colored the wall paintings of their women purely white; except in the case of goddesses and such rare mortals Hetep Heres II, the usual color is a pinkish yellow. The facial features of the Cretans, if one discounts the conventions of the artists, were purely Mediterranean; the straight, prominent nose, with its high root, the smooth profile of the forehead, and the lightness of the mandible are all clearly shown. The hair form is wavy or lightly curled and the beard, usually clean shaven, was apparently scanty. A variant racial type, which may indicate an Alpine element similar to that found in Greece (see following section), is seen in a broad-faced form, associated with a lateral bodily habitus, and an occasional snub nose. Although the physical type of the Cretans has changed somewhat since the fall of the Minoan power, the features of the happy and athletic people shown on the frescoes at Knossus, and the preoccupied frown of the snake goddess, are still familiar to us, for they reflect the common heritage of the Mediterranean race elsewhere. Most of the Early Minoan skulls belong to the Mediterranean type just described, which shows a blending between the usual Neolithic variety and the convex-nosed type prevalent in the Near East. In some sites, as at Hagios Nikolas and Patema, the population was exclusively Mediterranean. In others, a few brachycephalic examples occur, and these apparently belong to the same type found at Cyprus. In the later Minoan periods the brachycephals increased in numbers, but never formed more than a minor element in the population, probably not more than a sixth at most. Since 70 per cent of the population of Cyprus may have belonged to this type, the Cretans must have kept themselves fairly free from eastern admixture after the initial establishment of their national culture and power. At the time of the Dorian invasions, as today, the Cretans were still predominantly Mediterranean. Toward the end of the Early Minoan period, somewhat before 2100 B.C., strong Cycladic influences entered Crete, and it is possible that some of the Middle and Late Minoan skulls of unusual size and Megalithic conformation may be derived from this movement. The present population of Crete belongs largely to a tall Mediterranean type, which may partially antedate the Dorian arrival.18 carnby.altervista.org/troe/05-03.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 16:03:52 GMT -5
Related topics on Dinarics-------- Here we have first or original Dinarics (Capadocian hook nosed Med types mentioned here in association) located in Cyprus which are compared to Albanian Dinarics (and therefore western Balkan Dinarics). Circa 2000-1000BC. Chapter V: The Bronze Age The Bronze Age in Western Asia In the second and third periods at Alishar, dated between 2300 and 1500 B.C., and called the Early Bronze Age, brachycephalic skulls appeared, and these persisted through the period of the Hittite Empire, for several centuries after 1500 B.C. The crania are large, low vaulted, and only moderately brachycephalic, with lambdoid flattening, and moderate browridges. The faces are of medium length, and narrow, although somewhat broader than those of the earlier Danubian type. The stature of the one male observed was tall, 174 cm.3 The latter probably came in earlier times from the highland belt of which Anatolia forms a part. Shortly before 2000 B.C., a moderately brachycephalic type, with tall stature, entered Anatolia from regions yet to be determined, followed by a low-vaulted, hawk-nosed Mediterranean form, which we have named Cappadocian,” and which is well known in the present day Near East. True Armenoids or Dinarics were not, apparently, common in early times. The round-headed element in Cyprus, which appears identical with that from Alishar, is numerous enough to warrant statistical comparisons. Fürst calls the skulls Armenoid, and they do resemble Iron Age and modern Armenians quite closely in vault size and proportions, but the the faces and noses of the Cypriotes are smaller in both height and breadth. At the same time, they resemble modern Alpines in vault size, while the faces are narrower. The bloc of early brachycephals of western Europe and North Africa which includes Afalou, Ofnet, and the Borreby skulls is quite different, being much larger in vault size and in facial dimensions as well. The Cypriotes notably lack the heavy mandible of western European brachycephals. The position of the Cypriotes in the modern racial scheme falls into the brachycephalic group of moderate vault size, including Alpines, Armenoids, and Dinarics; the most notable feature is the small face, notable for its narrowness, and the light jaw. It is more like the modern Dinarics than anything else, since it diverges from the Armenian standard in the same way as do modern Albanians. The stature12 was tall, as with modern Dinarics, and the long bones slender. The brachycephalic people who entered the Anatolian—Eastern Mediterranean region in the latter part of the third millennium B.C. were, therefore, an early form of Dinaric; as, one suspects, were the so-called “Armenoids” who came into Mesopotamia at the same time. This is our first meeting with the Dinaric race. Its appearance in western Asia seems quite abrupt, but was probably the result of*gradual development, followed by an overflow or evacuation from the seat of its characterization. Where this may have been is still unknown. carnby.altervista.org/troe/05-02.htm-------- On Bell Baker (Dinaric branch) Again, here we can see that the region known in antiquity as Illyria was initially strictly dolichocephalic (Corded mentioned). Bell Baker type is compared with Cyprus Dinaric series (which are smaller in size). It originates in today's central Germany and it's Dinaric form is created when Med is fused with Borreby (unlike Greek region Dinarics who are created when Med form is fused with Alpine). The Copper Age in Europe North of the Mediterranean Lands: Danubian Movements and Bell Beakers (Chapter V, section 7) The inhabitants of Yugoslavia during the Copper Age were, like those of Hungary, also uniformly dolichocephalic.59 Unfortunately, here also we have no further information of racial significance. As one approaches the mouth of the Danube, however, this dolichocephalic uniformity disappears. Four skulls from Russe in Bulgaria, include one male of Corded type, a mesocephalic male, and two brachycephalic females.60 From this evidence, such as it is, we may deduce that the people who brought copper into the Danube Valley at the close of the Neolithic period came from two centers, southern Russia and the Caucasus, and Anatolia, by way of Troy. The chief carriers were the Corded people or some others equally dolichocephalic, while brachycephals from Asia Minor were of little importance from the racial standpoint. While Copper Age civilization was thus spreading westward along the Danube and the lands to the north, a countermovement in the form of the Bell Beaker invasion travelled eastward from the Rhine to the Danube, and as far as Poland and Hungary. The remains of these Bell Beaker people occupy single graves or groups of graves, rather than whole cemeteries; they were apparently wandering traders, trafficking in metals, for their gold spirals have been found in Danish graves of the corridor-tomb period. They were thus in all likelihood rivals of the Battle-Axe people in their search for amber. From the Rhine Valley as a center, Bell Beaker expeditions moved eastward into Bohemia, Austria, Poland, and Hungary; those who took part in these movements were eventually absorbed into the local populations. The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. The Bell Beaker physical type is known to us from sixty or more skulls from scattered burials in Germany, Austria, Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, and Hungary.62 Of these, about one-third are truly brachycephalic, while the others are, almost without exception, mesocephals. In the Rhine country around Wörms, three-fourths or more of the Bell Beaker crania are brachycephalic; in Austria, one finds an equally high ratio; but in Bohemia and Poland the high brachycephaly becomes less frequent, and at Tököl in Hungary, in a series of ten crania, four are mesocephalic and six are dolichocephalic.63 So high is the mesocephalic ratio, and except for Hungary, so infrequent the truly long-headed crania associated with this type, that the mesocephals are clearly one branch of the main type, and not the product of local mixture with long heads. Morphologieally, the mesocephals are essentially Bell Beaker. The series of skulls from the Rhineland, including nine adult males, is the most suitable for comparison (see Appendix I, col. 21). It is identical in the cranial index mean with that of Furst's forty-four male Bronze Age skulls from Cyprus, which have already been studied, and which have been called Dinaric. The Rhenish crania are a little larger in vault dimensions, and particularly in height; hut are almost identical facially. Morphologically, the two groups are also similar, but the Bell Beaker group is more extreme in many ways; the browridges are often heavy, the general ruggedness frequently greater. The faces are characteristically narrow, the orbits medium to high, the nasal skeleton high and aquiline; the occiput frequently flat. The stature for six males reached the high mean of 177 cm. The deviation of the Rhenish Bell Beaker skulls, such as it is, from the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean Dinaric form, lies in a Borreby direction. It is, therefore, more than likely that the invaders mixed with the descendants of the earlier Neolithic brachycephals, whose territory stretched along the North Sea coast from southern Sweden to Belgium. On the whole, however, at the period represented by the Wörms crania, the eastern or Dinaric element was the more important. The Spanish Bell Beaker problem now stands in a somewhat clearer light than before. The Dinaric type, with which the Rhenish Bell beakers are associated, is one which entered the western Mediterranean by sea from the east, and eventually moved, by some route yet to be determined in an accurate manner, to the north, and eventually to central Europe. The paucity of brachycephals in Spain may be due to the paucity of remains of this culture in general. It is still possible, one might add, that certain North African elements became involved in the Bell Beaker racial type, but such an accretion is unnecessary and hardly likely. The Bell Beaker people were probably the first intrusive brachycephals to enter the Austrian Alps, and the mountains of northeastern Bohemia, for the push of Lake Dwelling Alpines southeastward toward the Balkans happened later in the Bronze Age. It is, therefore, possible that the present Dinaric populations of the Dinaric Alps and the Carpathians may be derived in part from this eastward irvasion. The small numbers and scattered burial habits of the Bell Beaker people on the more densely populated plains of Europe must have made them of much less ethnic importance there than in the mountains. carnby.altervista.org/troe/05-07.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 16:05:16 GMT -5
Related Subjects Aunjetitz culture "It grew out of beaker roots" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture------ Beaker culture Looking at inherited dental traits, she found that only in Northern Spain and the Czech Republic were there demonstrable genetic links between immediately previous populations and Bell Beaker populations. Elsewhere there was a genetic discontinuity en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_people-------- Urnfield culture "Some scholars consider them to be the ancestors of the Celts."
"The origins of the cremation rite is commonly believed to be the Balkans, where it was widespread in the eastern part of the Tumulus culture. Some cremations begin to be found in the Proto-Lusatian and Trzciniec culture."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_cultureInteresting that Apian connects Celts with Illyrians in Greek mythology. Appian, Illyr. 2.3–4:“It is said that the country received its name from Polyphemus' son Illyrius; the Cyclops Polyphemus and Galatea had the sons Celtus, Illyrius and Galas; they left Sicily and ruled over the peoples who were named after them: the Celts, the Illyrians, and the Galatians. This mythological story pleases me the most, although many others are also told by many writers. (4) Illyrius had the sons Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, Perrhaebus and the daughters Partho, Daortho, Dassaro and others, from whom arose the peoples of the Taulantii, Perrhaebi, Enchelei, Autariatae, Dardanians [and Maedi], Partheni, Dassaretii and Darsi. Autarieus himself had a son Pannonius or Paeon, who in turn had Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations also were descended who were named after them. But I shall leave this subject to the antiquarians.”
www.msh-alpes.prd.fr/balkans/Resumes/SaselKos.htm
Read more: webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l-7JzMo4dkMJ:illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi%3Fboard%3Dilirijaillyrikonillyria%26action%3Ddisplay%26thread%3D3220+celtus+illyrius&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#ixzz1BF1UvDCZ
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 16:05:40 GMT -5
Related topics On modern former Yugoslavs and Albanians ------ (Chapter XII, section 12) The Living Slavs (c) Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes ----------- The Slovenes,118 who are the westernmost of the southern Slavs, are linguistically closest to the Croats, whom they border on the south and east. They arrived in their present territory in the seventh century A.D., and absorbed the remnants of the Keltic and Illyrian peoples who had persisted in one form or other through the invasions and turmoils of the preceding centuries. Their chief area is the former Austrian province of Carniola, where they form 94 per cent of the population; beyond its borders they extend into Styria and Carinthia, and in the south they occupy part of the peninsula of Istria. In stature, head form, and pigmentation, they cannot be distinguished from the Austrians upon whose territory they touch; their mean height being 168 cm., their cephalic index 83.4, and almost half having medium brown to blond hair, while light and light-mixed eyes total nearly 70 per cent. The length and breadth dimensions of the head, however, fall at the small end of the Alpine and Dinaric ranges, with means of 183 mm. and 154 mm.; furthermore, their facial dimensions are rather small, with a total face height no greater than 120 mm., and a bizygomatic diameter of 140 mm. A nasal index of 68 is accompanied by a 25 per cent incidence of concave nasal profiles. The metrical characters detailed above indicate that while the stature and head form of the general Dinaric area are approximated by these Slavs, the Neo-Danubian type which has reëmerged so completely in northern and eastern Slavic territory is also to be reckoned with here. The Slovenes provide a partial breach in the Dinaric racial continuity, comparable to that provided by the Germanic element in Austria. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm------- This continuity is, however, partially restored by the Croatians,119 who, with a mean stature of 170 cm., and a mean cephalic index of 85, are intermediate in many respects between the Slovenes and the Serbs. The pigmentation of the Croatians is equivalent to that of the Slovenes; their faces are longer and wider, however, their noses longer, and nasal concavity is reduced to 15 per cent of the whole. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm------- The Serbs, who live for the most part to the north and east of the main Dinaric Alpine chain, and immediately east of the Bosnians and Montenegrins, founded a kingdom, alter their invasion from the north in the seventh century, in the country drained by the headwaters of the Lim and White Drin rivers, in what is now the Ipek region of eastern Montenegro, and the Mitrovitza country.120 The previous occupants were Romanized, Latin-speaking descendants of Illyrians and Thracians, and of colonists from other parts of the Roman Empire planted there by the emperors. During the twelfth century the Serbs expanded southward onto the plain of Kossovo, whence they made further conquests. Old Serbia, which arose as an important kingdom during the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, had as its centers Skoplje and Prizren, which, for the last five centuries, have been mostly inhabited by Turks and Albanians. The Serbs expanded, during the period of their efflorescence, into Albania, Macedonia, and Thessaly; the arrival of the Ottoman Turks, however, in the latter part of the fourteenth century, terminated this period of expansion, and many of the Serbs fled northward, while others became Turkicized and Albanized. The Albanians, many of whom were converted to Islam, worked with the Turks rather than against them, and after the flight of the Serbs from the plain of Kossovo, this region was soon colonized by Albanians, many of whom still remain there. The once important Serbian influence in Albania has left few vestiges, other than Slavic place names, and the presence of a few islands of Moslem Serb speakers in the mountains, as in the Gora district of Luma. In studying the racial history of the Balkans, it must be borne in mind that here more than elsewhere in Europe, linguistic and ethnic boundaries are constantly changing; there have been many wholesale emigrations and immigrations; whole countrysides have changed not only masters, but also peasantry, in mass evictions and mass colonizations. The Balkan peoples change their languages and ethnic identities with difficulty and only after bitter oppression; it is easier to transplant than to alter them; once converted, however, they become as ardent partisans of the new allegiance as of the old. The Serbs have been subjected to these disturbances as much as have the others. Their position as the dominant people of Yugoslavia has only been won through centuries of retrenchment and struggle; their present effort to Slavicize by force the minorities within their boundaries is a commonplace of Balkan history. The modern Serbs, like the rest of the Yugoslavs, fall more into the Dinaric racial classification than any other.121 Not as tall as the inhabitants of the mountain chain itself, they attain a national stature mean of about 168 cm., which varies somewhat regionally, reaching the figure of 170 cm. and over as one approaches Bosnia and Montenegro. The bodily build of the Serbs, as with most other southern Slavic peoples, is neither thick-set nor lean as a rule, but of moderate European proportions. A relative sitting height mean of 52.8 and a relative span of 102, emphasize the relative length of leg and shortness of arm. These are the proportions that one finds in southern Germany, rather than in northern Slavic countries. The Serbs, for their stature, have, even more than the Slovenes, relatively small heads. The mean length is only 182 mm., the breadth 184.5 mm., while the auricular height mean is only 123 mm. These are smalla than the heads of most Alpines, and of most western Dinaric groups. The cephalic index mean of 85 is of fully Dinaric elevation. The faces are also small, but longer than those of Slovenes and Croats, with a mean menton-nasion height of 122 mm. The bizygomatic breadth is likewise restrictat the mean of 140 mm. or less is no greater than among Nordics and Neo-Danubians. The noses are moderately leptorrhine (N. I. = 63), and small. (53 mm. X 33 mm.). The nasal profiles are usually straight, with a 25 per cent convex minority, and about 12 per cent of concave. The nasal root is almost always high, and the tip is inclined horizontally in most cases, but downward more frequently than upward. The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians; 45 per cent of eyes are pure brown (Martin #2-4), as against 20 per cent which are pure or nearly pure light. Over 55 per cent have black or dark brown hair, while light browns and blonds come to less than 10 per cent. The beards are, of course, often lighter than the head hair. The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total. It is unlikely that the prevalence of brunet pigmentation among the Serbs came from a Slavic source, and as we shall presently see, the high incidence of dark eyes can hardly be called Dinaric. By elimination we must suppose that the Serbs, in their sojourn in northern Macedonia. accumulated a strong brunet tendency. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm------- Bosnia consists of the six provinces, Bihac, Banjaluka, Tuzla, Travnik, Sarajevo, and Mostar, which lie between western Croatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, and the Slavonian plain. The southernmost province, Mostar, includes, the territory known as Herzegovina, which lies nearest to Montenegro. The Bosnians serve racially as an approach to the nucleus of Dinaric giantism in Montenegro.122 Tuzla, in the northeast, has a mean stature of 171 cm.; Bihac and Banjaluca, in the northwest, of 172 cm.; in Travnik and parts of Mostar it rises to 173 cm., in Sarajevo to 174 cm., and in Herzegovina to 175-176 cm., approaching the Montenegrin level. The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84). The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic123 and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam. In hair and eye color the Bosnians are intermediate between Croatians and Serbs; they are darkest in the northeast, and fairest in the regions nearest Montenegro. Since they form but an extension of the Montenegrin nucleus, it will suffice here to point out their near identity with the inhabitants of that former kingdom, and to leave a detailed description for the latter. On the steep and narrow coast of the Dinaric Alps, the zone of Dinaric racial concentration tapers off abruptly. The mean stature of the coastal people, from Istria along the Croatian shore and through the length of Dalmatia almost to the border of Albania, rises regularly from about 166 cm. to 171 cm., as one proceeds southeastward.124 Although the head form, with a mean cephalic index of 83-84, remains brachycephalic, the extreme short-headedness of the mountain interior is not present. The pigmentation changes gradually but extensively from a prevailingly blond condition in Istria to a prevalence of dark-mixed and dark eyes, and of black or dark brown hair, in southeastern Dalmatia. One may attribute the lesser Dinaricism of the Dalmatians to Italian or to Vlach blood, or to both,125 but this cannot be the only explanation. Dalmatia is the home, in solution, of a strong Atlanto-Mediterranean strain comparable to that found in northern Italy, which must go back in both places to a considerable antiquity. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm-------- The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintainingnheir Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion. Although the Montenegrins are divided geographically into several sections, the racial differences between these are not great, and for the present purpose the Montenegrins will be dealt with as a whole. Where there are regional differences, the Old Montenegrins, who show the most extreme development in typically Montenegrin characters, will be referred to.126 The mean stature of adult male Montenegrins reaches the figure of 177 cm., and in some districts it rises to 178 cm. The mean weight of a large series whose average age is 40 years is 160 lbs.; hence they are probably the heaviest as well as the tallest people in Europe, being even heavier than the Irish. Although their legs are very long, their trunks are correspondingly high, and a mean relative sitting height of 52 is at least 4 points higher than that for the long-legged Tuareg, who are the only white people of pure Mediterranean origin to approach them in stature. The Montenegrins' mean shoulder breath is 39 cm., and their chests are correspondingly large. The relative span of 101 is extremely low, indicating that their arms are short in proportion to either leg or trunk length. The hands and feet are, as is to be expected, usually of great size. These huge mountaineers are not as a rule slender, leptosome people; they are often thick-set, and are large all over. As is to be expected among men of their stature and bulk, the Montenegrins have large heads, but these are not quite as large as those of the somewhat shorter Irish, Icelanders, or Fehmarners. The mean head length is 188 mm., the breadth 160 mm., the auricular height about 128 mm. The cephalic index mean is 85, about the same as for Croatians, Bosnians, and Serbs. The head length, however, is at least 7 mm. greater than that for these other Yugoslavs, excepting the Bosnians, who fill an intermediate position; the head breadth is about 6 mm. greater. The faces are correspondingly large; the minimum frontal mean is 112 mm., the bizygomatic 147 mm., and the bigonial 112 mm. The total face height, 127 mm. in Old Montenegro, rises to a mean of over 130 mm. in Brda and the northern border tribes; the nose height reaches the remarkable elevation of 61 mm., while the breadth is 36 mm. The facial index, in view of the great size of both component diameters, lies at 89 in Old Montenegro, on the border between mesoprosopy and leptoprosopy; it rises to 91 in Brda and the northern border tribes. The upper facial index, 53 in Old Montenegro, has a mean of 55 in the north. The nasal index is hyperleptorrhine, with tribal means ranging between 58 and 60. The widest faces, the shortest faces, and the lowest upper facial indices, as well as the widest foreheads and jaws, are concentrated in the southwest, Old Montenegro. These excesses are not typically Dinaric; they suggest only one possible relationship, and that is with the unreduced Upper Palaeolithic races. The Montenegrins are prevailingly dark brown in head hair color; in Old Montenegro some 45 per cent of adult males belong to this class, while 20 per cent are medium brown, and 26 per cent auburn, or brown with a perceptible reddish tinge. The tribesmen of Brda and the northern border are somewhat darker, and show less rufosity. The beards are much lighter than the head hair; among Old Montenegrins 43 per cent are reddish brown, and 8 per cent contain a pure red element; only 17 per cent are dark brown. In Brda golden-brown beards are extremely common, as frequent as 39 per cent; in the northern border tribes, 24 per cent. The rufosity of the Montenegrins, and their tendency to golden blondism, is not only extreme, but is particularly unusual for this part of Europe. It will be recalled that the Serbians, traditionally close relatives of the Montenegrins, are much darker haired, and that the Slavs in general, when blond, favor the ash-blond side of the scale, being almost entirely deficient in rufosity. Twenty-five per cent of Old Montenegrins have pure dark eyes, and 10 per cent pure light ones. The pure darks are almost all mixtures between dark brown and light brown shades, while the pure lights are grayish blue. The mixed class, by far the largest, consists of 37 per cent green-brown, 20 per cent blue-brown, and 6 per cent gray-brown. The northern border tribes and BMa are lighter eyed than Old Montenegro, with only 20 per cent of pure darks. On the whole the Montenegrins have lighter eyes than the Serbs, and fully as light as the Slovenes and Croatians. Over 80 per cent have pinkish white unexposed skin color, ranging from von Luschan #3 to 7, 8, and 9; a small minority have skins which are as dark as light brown. About 25 per cent show some freckling, as is to be expected in association with rufosity. The head hair is straight or nearly straight among half the Old Montenegrins, wavy among the rest; in the other tribes the ratio of straight runs higher. The beard and body hair are, as a rule, moderate to abundant; the glabrosity of the eastern Slavs rarely appears here. Baldness, either partial or involving the whole crown of the head, is quite common. The eyebrows are as a rule thick, and concurrent in 80 per cent of the group. Exceptionally heavy browridges, rare among other Slavs, are found in about 20 per cent. The eyes are frequently deep set, with a narrow opening between the lids; three men cut of four have external eyefolds. A low orbit, a quite un-Dinaric character, seems frequent. The nose again in many cases diverges from a Dinaric standard; deep nasion depressions are common, and the nasal root is often of only moderate height and moderate breadth. The bridge is frequently but by no means always high, and of medium breadth. Among the Old Montenegrins, non-Dinaric nasal characters are commoner than among the other tribal groups. Fifty-two per cent of convex nasal profiles, however, retain the Old Montenegrins as a whole in the Dinaric class; the ratio is higher elsewhere. Fifteen per cent are concave, and 4 per cent definitely snubbed. The tip is of medium thickness in most cases, and inclined downward more frequently than upward. It must be remembered that in this case we are dealing with a series of men whose mean age is 40 years, and that among Dinaric peoples the depression of the nasal tip is a phenomenon of advancing age. On the whole the Montenegrins show a variety of nasal forms: the large hawk-beak for which they are famous is the most common, but alongside it is a large-tipped, low-bridged form which is less frequent but even more characteristic. The lips are usually of moderate integumental and slight membranous thickness; eversion is usually slight, and this last feature may be associated with a 25 per cent incidence of the primitive edge-to-edge manner of dental occlusion. Although the malars are rarely prominent in the forward plane, the zygomatic arches frequently jut widely to the side; the gonial angles are of exaggerated prominence in nearly half the group. In the back of the head, occipital protrusion is usually slight to absent; occipital flattening is present in 43 per cent of the Old Montenegrins, and even commoner in some of the other groups. Lambdoidal flattening is even more frequent; few heads show no flattening in either the lanibdoid region or below it. The Montenegrins, after a detailed examination, are seen to be far from typical Dinarics in many features; they are too large-bodied, too large-headed, and too broad-faced; their noses are too frequently broad and thick-tipped. They are also far too rufous for the ordinary Dinaric type. Taking the Montenegrins individually, one finds many who do conform to standard Dinaric specifications, but are all taller than most Dinarics elsewhere; there are also some short, thick-set Alpines, and a minority of tall, brunet dolichocephals or near dolichocephals whom we shall also find farther south in Albania. But the Montenegrin of distinctive type, concentrated in Old Montenegro, is a very tall, large-bodied man, with a large, full-vaulted head abbreviated at the rear; his face is very broad, his jaw heavy, his brows overhanging, and his nose large and thick-tipped. It is this type which bears the rufosity in hair color, the freckling, and a tendency to light-mixed eye color. Most of the Montenegrins are intermediate between this type and a more conventional Dinaric. The Old Montenegrin type, concentrated in the southwestern mountain fringe of Montenegro, just north of the Lake of Scutari, in the most conservative part of the kingdom culturally, and the ethnic center of the Montenegrin nation, is nothing more nor less than a local unreduced brachycephalized Upper Palaeolithic survival or reemergence, comparable to those found in northern Europe and northern Africa. Its growth to an extreme size is a local specialization, in which selection may have played a part, as well possibly as nutritive factors associated with life on a limestone mountain. Mixture with this Borreby-like type, and a response to the same selective and environmental influences, have elevated the stature of the accompanying Dinaric factor as well. Montenegro is not, therefore, simply a Dinaric nucleus; it is a Borreby-like or Afalou-like outcropping within a Dinaric nucleus. We know little or nothing of the prehistoric archaeology of Montenegro. So far there is no evidence to prove or disprove the presence of an Upper Palaeolithic European racial strain in this region. How this strain got to Montenegro, far from its other centers of survival, is a problem which cannot be solved without further facts. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm------- (Chapter XII, section 13) Albania and the Dinaric Race
The kingdom of Albania, lying directly south of Montenegro, contains a population of roughly one million people; another million at least live outside the borders of their own country, mostly in Yugoslavia, although there are large colonies in Greece and in Rumania, as well as in the United States. They are divided into two distinct ethnic groups, each with its own variety and dialects of the Albanian language, its own costume, and its own particular pattern of culture. These are the Toscs in the south, and in the north and on the plain of Kossovo, the Ghegs. The Ghegs still preserve their system of exogamous patrilineal clans, comparable to that of the Montenegrins; they are divided into ten tribes of which at least part of each lies in Albania itself, and three or perhaps more outside. The ten in Albania include Malsia ë Madhë, Dukagin, Malsia Jakovës and Has, all north of the Drin, and reading from west to east. Both Has and Malsia Jakovës extend eastward into Old Serbia, north of Prizren; Malsia e Madhe has clans in Old Montenegro. Entirely outside of Albania, in Montenegro and the Kossovo country, are Peia, Podrima, and a number of clans in the neighborhood of Mitrovitza. South of the Drin are Zadrima, immediately southeast of Shkodra; Puka, Mirdita, and Luma, part of which is Serbian-speaking; south of this band are Mati, the tribe of King Zog, and Dibra, which occupies the slopes on either side of the Black Drin. Seventy per cent of the Albanians in Albania are Moslems, nearly all in Yugoslavia are. The remaining 30 per cent are equally divided between Catholics and Greek Orthodox. The Catholics are all Ghegs, the Orthodox all Toscs. Of the Ghegs, all of Mirdita, all of Dukagin, and parts of Zadrima, Malsia ë Madhë, Puka, Malsia Jakovës, Has, and Mati are Catholic. The Catholics are the most conservative culturally, and as a rule the most remote in their habitat. Neither Catholicism nor Islam have inhibited the functioning of the Gheg social system, which operates in an unusual manner. Each tribe is divided into geographical and political divisions known as bairaks, but independent of this is another concept known as the fis. The fis is an exogamous patrilineal kinship group, without geographical attachment; several whole bairaks may belong to one fis, and thus be excluded from intermarriage; on the other hand one small village may contain branches of several fis, some large and national, other small and local. MAP 15: Tribal Divisions in Northern Albania The Albanian language, a hybrid between Illyrian, Thracian, Latin, Slavic, Turkish, and other elements, reflects the ethnically composite origin of the Albanians. The stature of the Ghegs is extremely variable geographically; the tribes which touch Montenegro have means of 173 cm. and 174 cm.; the northernmost bairaks of Malsia ë Madhë and Dukagin, which lie closest to Old Montenegro, are taller than the southern ones within their own tribes.127 On the south side of the Drin the means fall to 169 cm., and continues to the level of 167 cm. in Mati and Mirdita. The stature level of the Montenegrins tapers off much more rapidly to the south of its nucleus than it does to the north. The descent in stature level is steepest on the western side of the mountains; on the eastern side, from Has to Dibra, there is a drop of only 2 cm. The stature of the Albanians is chronologically constant; there is no internal evidence of recent increase. The relative span of the Ghegs is 104, higher than that of Montenegrins, and more in accordance with Dinaric standards. The relative sitting height of 52.8 is much the same, and show no regional differences of any importance. As in Montenegro, bodily build is not controlled by stature; the most thick-set individuals are often the tallest. The shoulder breadth-stature ratio is in fact highest in the tribes adjoining Montenegro. The mean cephalic index of the Ghegs is 85, as with most Dinarics. Geographically, however, the highest indices are found in the west, in Malsia Jakovës, Zadrima, and Mati, the three tribes situated on the coastal side of the mountain chain; here the means lie between 86.5 and 87. A zone of relative long-headedness is found in the east, in Malsia Jakovës and Luma, where the means are 83. Thus the progression is from west to east, and not north to south, as with stature. As one would expect, the head dimensions vary with stature; the mean head lengths in the north range from 186 mm. to 190 mm.; in the south from 183 mm. to 185 mm. The head breadths run from 162 mm. in Malsia ë Madhë to 165 mm. in Luma. The widest heads are thus found in proximity to Old Montenegro. The vaults of the Ghegs are moderately high; ranging from 129 mm. in the north, to 126 mm. in the south. The facial diameters show both a north-south and an east-west progression: the minimum frontal mean, for example, is 112 mm. in Malsia ë Madhë and 110 mm. in other tribes north of the Drin; elsewhere it falls to 107 mm. and 108 mm. The bizygomatic, with a mean of 144 mm. in the northwestern tribes, falls regularly to 140-141 mm. in the south and cast. The bigonial follows a similar progression from 109 mm. to 107 mm. In these facial diameters, as in stature, the northwesternmost Ghegs form a continuation of the oversized racial area of Old Montenegro; elsewhere there is a rapid tapering to a normal Dinaric condition. It is to be noted that among these Dinarics, patently the descendants of pre-Germanic and pre-Slavic mountain peoples, the forehead is wider than the mandible, and the face takes on the characteristic form of an inverted triangle. Once outside the Montenegrin area, the face loses its excessive height; the mean menton-nasion diameter of the Ghegs is 124 mm., comparable to face heights in southern Germany and Switzerland. The greatest heights, reaching a mean of 126 mm. in Has, are found in the east, along the edges of the plain of Kossovo; the shortest, reaching 121 mm. in Mirdita, are located in the central mountain nucleus, from Dukagin to Mati. This regional pattern is clearly shown by the facial index, which runs from 86 in the center and west, to 89 in the east. All tribes but Has, however, are mesoprosopic. The upper facial index is even more variable: the mean for Mirdita is 49; for Has 54; this range is nearly as great as that for all of Europe. The noses of the Ghegs, 58 mm. high by 34 mm. wide, are among the world's most leptorrhine, with a mean nasal index of 58. Metrically the Gheg tribes present a complex situation; the rapid progression from north to south in stature and in the breadths of the head and face show that the Borreby-like nucleus of Old Montenegro does not extend far southward into Albania. The tall, northern tribesmen are the most heavily built, the shorter southern ones the most sparely; a conven-tional Dinaric build goes with the shorter stature level. In the eastern tribes there is strong evidence of a moderately tall, long-faced, dolichocephalic element; while a short-faced element, metrically suggestive of Alpines, is centered in the very remote mountain valleys of Mirdita. Almost all of the Ghegs are light-skinned, with the von Luschan #3 and 7 most frequently represented. Freckling, common in Montenegro, is rare here; what little there is is confined almost entirely to the tribes nearest Old Montenegro, and here it reaches but 5 per cent. The head hair is usually brunet, with black or near black reaching 40 per cent, and dark to medium brown 45 per cent. Light brown or blond hair, which is almost always on the golden or slightly rufous side, accounts for the other 15 per cent. Only two men out of 1100 were found to have ash-blond hair. As in Montenegro, the beards are much lighter than the head hair; the black contingent is reduced to 6 per cent, while 36 per cent are reddish brown or auburn, 3 per cent red, and 30 per cent golden blond or light brown with a golden tinge. The rufous tendency, while not as pronounced as in parts of Montenegro, exists to the virtual exclusion of ash-blondism. Regionally, the darkest hair is found in Mirdita and in the eastern border; the lightest in the west and south. Seventeen per cent of Ghegs have pure brown eyes, and 7 per cent pure light ones. Half the group has green-brown iris combinations and 20 per cent blue-brown. Of the mixed eyes, 30 per cent are dark-mixed, and 48 per cent predominantly light, the rest nearly even. The Ghegs are, therefore, thoroughly mixed, or almost completely intermediate, in eye color, with the blond element or elements slightly more important than the brunet. The darkest eyes are found in Dukagin, and in Malsia Jakova, on the border of Old Serbia; there 25 per cent of eyes are brown. Elsewhere there is little regional differentiation. The head hair of the Ghegs is usually wavy, and medium to fine in texture; it is of greater than average abundance for Europeans on mustache, cheek, jaw, and on the body; at the same time the correlative tendency to baldness is strong here. The eyebrows are usually thick, and are concurrent in 70 per cent of the group. As in Montenegro, the foreheads are seldom very sloping; the browridges are usually on the heavy side of medium. External eyefolds, found in 35 per cent of the group, are commonest in the tribes which form a continuation of the western mountain zone south of Old Montenegro; elsewhere the high Dinaric orbit precludes their development in most cases. The nasal morphology of the Ghegs is usually more strictly Dinaric than that of the Montenegrins; the root and bridge are more consistently elevated, and the tip as a rule thinner. Well over 50 per cent have convex profiles; only 6 per cent concave. Less than half the tips are inclined downward; only in Malsia ë Madhë, closest to Montenegro, are depressed tips in the majority. With the thin nasal tip goes a high ratio of compressed nasal wings; the Gheg nose is truly leptorrhine morphologically as well as metrically. The faces of the Ghegs often lack the strong bony relief so noticeable among Montenegrins; the lateral jut of the zygomatic arches is usually restricted, and the gonial angles are usually of but medium prominence. The cheeks are usually drawn and thin, and while this condition may be partly nutritional, it has its racial implications. The plump, fat-padded cheeks of the Ukrainian peasants stand at the opposite European extreme. The morphology of the occipital region among the Ghegs, in view of their general Dinaric character, is of particular interest. The occipital protrusion is as a rule slight to medium; it is least in the western tribes. and greatest in the eastern. Actual occipital flattening is found in only 30 per cent of the group; tribal incidences range from 50 per cent in Malsia ë Madhë to 20 per cent in Dukagin, Malsia Jakovës, and Puka. On the whole the distribution is definitely west to east. Lambdoid flattening is found among 44 per cent of the Ghegs; it is thus more frequent than the occipital form. Its tribal distribution is exactly opposite to that of occipital flattening; the two phenomena are usually complementary, and a minority only of individuals lacks either. There has been much discussion upon the subject of occipital flattening, both in Albania and in Asia Minor; there are two definite schools, one which believes that it is natural and racially determined, the other that it is a form of artificial deformation caused by cradling. My own position lies between these two extremes;128 occipital flattening is without doubt a phenomenon associated with the entire mechanical orientation of the cranium in the Dinaric race, and especially with the position of the foramen magnum to the rear of that usual in most races. As such, it is undeniably inherited. At the same time, the use of the Albanian cradle, in which the shoulders are bound but the head is not, may in some instances have caused an intensification of this flattening, since the heads of some living Albanians are unquestionably deformed. However, since cradling practices are regionally uniform in Albania, the geographical distribution of this character is wholly racial in pattern. At this point there arises the entire question of Dinaric origins, which may be approached on the basis of a statistical analysis of the Gheg material. Attempts to intercorrelate metrical and morphological characters with each other and with pigmentation reveal the presence of the following types in Ghegnia, each of which shows a tendency for the characters of which it is composed to associate themselves as a unit. 1. A tall, large-headed, brachycephalic, wide-faced type, with intermediate pigmentation, and an especial tendency toward rufosity. This is the Borreby-like type prevalent in Montenegro; in Albania it is almost wholly confined to the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë, and within that tribe is concentrated in the bairak of Gruda. 2. A medium-statured, brachycephalic, short-faced type, with mixed pigmentation, which is fundamentally Alpine. It is found in all tribes, but is commonest in the refuge area of Mirdita. 3. A tall, dolichocephalic or mesocephalic type with dark hair and dark brown eyes, a straight nasal profile, and a tendency toward a lesser leptorrhiny than the total group. This is an Atlanto-Mediterranean racial type which is also prevalent in other Balkan countries. It may also be sorted out of available statistical series of Greeks, while it is common in Bulgaria and easily distinguishable among Serbs. It, or a similar type, also occurs with Dinarics in northern Italy and the Tyrol. In northern Albania it is commonest in Malsia Jakovës and Dukagin. 4. A very strongly differentiated type which is characterized by medium stature, exceptional brachycephaly, great narrowness and convexity of the nose, a high incidence of occipital flattening, and a tendency to light brown eye color in combination with dark brown hair. This type may be called Dinaric in the full or specific sense; most of the other Ghegs are Dinarics in a partial or a general sense. This ultra-Dinaric type is commonest in the tribe of Dibra. 5. A blond, brachycephalic, convex-nosed Noric, of standard type. It is commonest in Zadrima. 6. A few light brown-haired Nordics, centered in Luma. As a result of the foregoing division of the Gheg material into natural sub-racial compartments, it becomes apparent that the Dinaric race, in the sense of a tall, convex-nosed, long-faced population inhabiting the mountain zone which stretches from Switzerland to Albania, is a composite aggregation of racial types. The specific nature of the Dinaric population of any given segment of this zone depends upon the local elements involved; thus there are regional Dinaric sub-types. There is one dominant set of characters which pervades the Dinaric group; high brachycephaly, nasal convexity, occipital flattening, and a tendency toward the attenuation of extremities. Aside from these features, the original ingredients in the Dinaric blend tend to retain their old linkages. The peculiar facial and cranial features of the Dinarics seem to be the results of differential inheritance in hybridization; the primary mixture which brings them about is apparently an Alpine-Mediterranean crass, with Mediterranean used in the widest sense of the word. The Asiatic Dinarics, who appeared early in the Metal Age, were apparently Alpine-Cappadocian hybrids; many of those went to Europe and settled in widely separated places, including sections of the Dinaric Alps. The exaggerated Dinaric type of Albania, with its tendency to light brown eye color may conceivably be derived from this source. It is also to be found in considerable numbers in the Tyrol. All European Dinarics, however, cannot be traced to this Near Eastern origin; most of them must be the result of primary blendings on European soil. Here the two principal ingredients are the tall, dark brown-eyed Adanto-Mediterranean which seems old and basic in southeastern Europa and an ordinary Alpine. Nordic accretions produce a Noric, Borreby-like accretions an Old Montenegnn. Neo-Danubian Slavic additions product the small-faced type common in Slovenia, Croatia, and Serbia. The blending of the Dinarics is never perfect in a chemical sense; in any Dinaric population there are ordinary Alpines and a few Atlanto-Mediterraneans along with their blended brethren. When the proportions of the ingredients are wrong, the type which is present in excess may be found in some numbers in its original form. That is why there are so many Alpines in France and Switzerland, and so many Atlanto-Mediterraneans in Malsia Jakovës. Dinaricism is not a quality pertaining to a single race, it is a condition. This condition is common in Europe; it is also common in western Asia. Furthermore, it is not confined to the white racial stock; the principle of hybrid inheritance which produces Dinarics in Europe has also produced Papuans in New Guinea, the Arii aristocrats in Polynesia, and many American Indians. The southern half of Albania, the homeland of the Toscs, lies outside the Dinaric racial area in the strictest sense. The Toscs are dwellers in compact villages, wearers of pleated kilts like the Greeks, and frequent emigrants to other lands. Like the Mzabites in Algeria, and the Hadhramis of southern Arabia, many of the male inhabitants of several southern Albanian towns, notably Korça, migrate to distant lands in their youth, work in factories or run shops, and return when they have accumulated enough money. It was this system which first led Albanians to migrate to America, a system which the Toscs share with the Greeks. The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastër and its neighborhood.129 These Aginocastrians are on the short side of medium in stature, with a mean of 164 cm.; they are long-bodied, with a mean relative sitting height of 53.7, and medium in arm extension (rel. span = 103.4). They are, as a rule, medium to lateral in bodily build. Their cephalic index mean, 90.8, is by far the highest recorded in Europe. Their head length, 177 mm., is extremely small, its breadth, 161 mm., great. The auricular height of 122 mm. is moderate to low. The forehead is rather broad, with a minimum frontal of 109 mm., the mandible less so, with a bigonial of 107 mm., while the face breadth, 141 mm., like the other facial dimensions, falls into the Alpine range. The face height, 119 mm., is moderately short; the facial index, 84.4, barely mesoprosopic. The nose, however, with a length of 56.3 mm. and a breadth of 34.4 mm., is very leptorrhine, in a typical Albanian manner, with a nasal index of 61. Toscs measured in Rumania have a mean cephalic index of 87; members of the Tosc colonies of southern Italy, who fled across the Adriatic from the Turks in the sixteenth century, a mean of 80. It seems probable that the extreme index mean of the Gjinokastër neighborhood is higher than that for the Tosc country as a whole; yet individual Toscs measured in Massachusetts run well into the 90's. The Italian Toscs may owe their relative dolichocephaly to (a) mixture with Italians, (b) selection at source of migration, or (c) the possibility that the high brachycephaly of the Tosc country may be a recent phenomenon, as in southern Germany, Bohemia, and so many other central European countries. It is very possible that the high brachycephaly of the Toscs at home may be partly due to cradling; it is a commonplace in the Albanian colony of Massachusetts that the newer generation born in Stockbridge and Brockton licks in many cases the extreme occipital brevity of its parents. Further exposition concerning the physical anthropology of the Toscs must take the form of subjective observations and remarks, which are permissible only in lieu of adequate data. In the first place, the fundamental Tosc type is Alpine. The head form, with or without occipital flattening, is usually globular, the forehead high and often bulbous, the face frequently round in contour. The nose in many cases lacks the high-bridged Dinaric character found among the Ghegs, as well as the common depression of the tip. This Alpine type is well represented by photographs on Plate 14. Beside the Alpines, there are many Dinarics in southern Albania, but they probably form a minority, and in any case are extremely variable. In Albania it is very easy to distinguish a Gheg; they have a racial hall-mark which is hard to define and easy to recognize; the Toscs are much less homogeneous, and in America they pass for the most part unnoticed in the general racial hodge-podge. Most Bostonians, who possibly see fifty to one hundred Toscs in a week, are unaware of their presence, while they have definite ideas, formed upon first sight, as to who is an Italian, an Armenian, or a Jew. It is my opinion that the Toscs, in pigmentation as well as in bodily and facial characters, resemble the southern and central French very closely; that they and the French form the two ends of the Alpine racial area in Europe, the center of which is largely taken up by the Dinaric amalgam. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-13.htm------- (Chapter XII, section 14) The Greeks One special group, the Sphakiots, living near the western end of the south side of the island, differ from the other Cretans in a number of characters; they are very tall, with a mean stature of 175 cm., and meso- to sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 81.6. They have especially large heads, with a mean length of 191 mm. and breadth ci 155 mm.; their faces are longer than the others, and equally broad or broader. Morphologically Dinaric types are common among them; they may be compared with Montenegrins and the northernmost Ghegs. According to the general assumption of authorities on Crete, the Sphakioti are the partial descendants of the Dorians who invaded the island at the end of the Minoan period. That some of them do resemble the traditional Spartan type is very likely. One can only derive them from the north, from the region in which the larger branch of the Dinaric race was formed. carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-14.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 16, 2011 19:36:49 GMT -5
Conclusion: Illyrians (judging by what Coon said here carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-02.htm ) were originally Doloco-Cephalic group (mainly Danubians with Corded influence). They appear brachi-cephalized later by Capadocian/Alpine stabilized blend called Dinarics (In Cyprus it is 1st time where they appear as fully developed Dinarics) and or Alpines. Greeks show influences, among others, by Danubians (like Illyrians), Corded Meds (like Illyrians) and Cypriot Dinarics ('Illyrian' Dinarics morphology is compared to that of this type as identical and this Cypriot Dinaric type is original Dinaric type as we know it today in western Balkans). Minoan type (akin to ancient Egyptians and very culturally advanced for its time) has contributed to Greek composition and it is distant from Illyrians, Thracians, Macedonians and generally much of original Hellenic types due to the apparent Egyptian influence. First or original Dinarics (Capadocian hook nosed Med types mentioned here in association) were located in Cyprus which are compared to Albanian Dinarics (and therefore western Balkan Dinarics), circa 2000BC-1000BC. Our Dinarics are genetically not of Bell Baker type. Slovenes are racially like Austrians with strong Slavic neo-Danubian presence intermixed with native Illyrians and Celts. Northern Croatians are medium type between more Slovenes and more Dinaric/'Greek' Serbs (Coon mentions that only source for strong brunet presence with Serbs can be from Greek Macedonia). Serbs (the least), Croats (medium) and Slovenes (most) are influenced also by Slav Neo-Danubians. Bosnians, Montenegrins and Gheg Albanians are Dinaric natives mainly with strong Atlanto-Mediterranean presence in some areas (especially Hercegovina which is not mentioned). Coastal regions such as Dalmatia are also strongly Atlanto-Mediterranean.
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 17, 2011 5:20:19 GMT -5
I definitely see some Greek influence here but its not tremendously large is it? Do you consider Illyrians' ancestors Greek? Is this the basis for your theory that most Yugoslavs are children of ancient Greeks?
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 17, 2011 7:39:54 GMT -5
One special group, the Sphakiots, living near the western end of the south side of the island, differ from the other Cretans in a number of characters; they are very tall, with a mean stature of 175 cm., and meso- to sub-brachycephalic, with a mean cephalic index of 81.6. They have especially large heads, with a mean length of 191 mm. and breadth ci 155 mm.; their faces are longer than the others, and equally broad or broader. Morphologically Dinaric types are common among them; they may be compared with Montenegrins and the northernmost Ghegs. According to the general assumption of authorities on Crete, the Sphakioti are the partial descendants of the Dorians who invaded the island at the end of the Minoan period. That some of them do resemble the traditional Spartan type is very likely. One can only derive them from the north, from the region in which the larger branch of the Dinaric race was formed. i lived in Crete for 7 years. Feel free to ask me questions, but pls dont publicize BS you read left and right. And do yourself a favor. FINALLY GO TO CRETE, and get a first hand experience. Books talk BS, most of the times. Its not only in Sfakia tall, but in Anogia, in Mesara, as well. Its not only in Sfakia blonde, but in Oropedio Lasithiou as well.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 17, 2011 11:49:11 GMT -5
I definitely see some Greek influence here but its not tremendously large is it? Do you consider Illyrians' ancestors Greek? Is this the basis for your theory that most Yugoslavs are children of ancient Greeks? Greek influence? I was talking anthropology. All the elements found in Greece are found in region of ancient Illyria (minus Egyptian influence) such as Corded, Danubian, Dinaric and Alpine. Apart from several Greek (Grecian) colonies on Adriatic coast and islands the rest of Illyria was unaffected by Grecians (Greeks from Greece). Even though, the entire original or southern Illyria was fully Hellenic in culture (clearly compared in antiquity to Macedonia and Epirus in culture-language-religion and these were some of the main epicenters of Hellenism, think Pyrrus and Alexander). The Borreby like (Dinaric variant) type found in Sfakia (Coon did measurements and was not guessing) is found in only Montenegro/NW Albania (and no where else) and this conclusively connects Dorians and Illyrians from that area as being partially a component of Dorian invasion of Greece. Their height is not the only component that makes them that type, not even close. I will quote what I wrote before in the topic about Montenegrin genetics which proves also a strong connection with Greece as well as, more then anything else, with pre-slavic natives ( illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=crnagoramontenegro&action=display&thread=32437&page=1 ) Hellenization and such terms are not what I am after since that is guessing .
What is not guessing regarding south Illyria are following elements; (after reading that specific link) illyriancommunities.illyria.net/
01- Being part of Greek mythology (Encheleans, Cadmus, Harmonia, Hillus, Illyrius etc)
02- "corresponds to the type of Greek kingdoms of the Homeric era"
03-"participants of the Trojan war" (was basically Greek civil war)
04-"Peonians being direct neighbor of the Greeks maintained close trade religions and as a result fell early under their cultural influence"
05-"At the year of 306. B.C. king ' Audoleont' (= 'Autoleontos' ?) minted coins that stated the title 'basileus' (='vasileus'?) , in a likewise manner that Hellenic monarchs did."
06-"During his rule Peonia in the sources is called 'koinon ton Paionon' (state-political community of Peonians). 6 Greeks with the legal expression 'koinon' had marked statehood , characteristic for their own (Greek) communities."
07-'The nucleus's of the other cities were old illyrian centers of which some were fully or partly hellenized."
08-"The most noticed royal palace employee he terms by the title 'filoi' (kings friends), just like it was in royal palaces of hellenistic rulers of the time."
09-'With that the diplomacy used greek language and script."
10-"The research has showed that Daorsi were under intense Greek influence. Their center at Osanici near Stolac contains many elements of Hellenistic cities (cyclopean walls, specific urban architecture, agora and related), and also mobile material shows that life was lived in Greek fashion. Special attention deserves the fact that Daorsi minted coin whose iconography fully coincides with Greek coins. On the face is the picture of a head of God Hermes and on the back boat written in Greek Daorson.39 "
After reading this one can easily see that the Greek is only clearly dominant identifiable culture in original or south Illyria (south of Darson). Therefore there is no question that this was a part of the Hellenic world. Anything else (such as "Were they Hellenized and when?"; "What was the original language?" etc) are just domains of speculation (no remains of any separate language) and can not be proven and thus void of importance. Greek influence? It looks like southern Illyrians (the area that was never recorded to become forcefully Hellenized) were also one of the Hellenes together with Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians and other Hellenes.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 17, 2011 12:13:26 GMT -5
In addition, vast majority of the major toponyms in Illyria and Moesia are Greek in origin (author states can be best explains using Greek) as one can see in the bookby Antonije Skokljev - "Bogovi Olimpa Iz Srbije" or "Olymbic gods are from Serbia" where he states that one of the originating points of Hellenes was Danubian region. Greek Toponyms in Balkans / Greek Words in Montenegrin Serbian Dialect (Note:Not even close to being finished inputting data!)greekwords.illyria.net/index.htmlI didn't want to show that link until it is done (and that will take time) but since you guys insist on related topic, here it is. Observe only ones which show Greek origin and page number (which is obviously from his book) and disregard anything else..
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 17, 2011 13:14:24 GMT -5
I guess 10% of your above work is ok. For the rest you defintely need a doctor. examples: Korca is simply Gorica words: Pente, -> insane Rakija, Meze are not greek in the slightest.... (Turkish-Asian) Veranda, Taratsa are 100% Italian, etc.... Varka (Italian)
(as a matter of fact m we (greeks) have absolutely no greek marine terminology. ALL old sea-words are ITALIAN. ALL NEW sea-words are ENGLISH.
PERIOD.
if i would pend 2 more minutes with this i would destroy your fantasy in seconds....
Man.... you are a dreamer .... A self-hating Slav dreamer...
i dont know what to do with you.... cry ?? or get angry???
your love for Greekdom, reminds me my love for Slavdom, however we have a major difference. I know what is greek and what not. what is slav and what not. You dont have that luxury, so your effort will be (best case) a sentimental bubble.
BUT,
there are a lot of words with indoeuropean origin (e.g. Trehein - Trciti, or Voleti - Voulisthai)... and if you work in this (correct) direction, you will find that Russian or western Slavs have a lot of those words as well.
PS for funks sake, your people spreads from the sea of japan to western europe and from mediteranean to north pole... show some sense of reality ...
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 17, 2011 13:56:48 GMT -5
That was research by the author of the book and it seems to be done in great detail. Danubian region also is where Danubian type comes from and that is among the oldest types in Greece mentioned so it makes sense and not to mention that he easily finds connection between ancient Greek mythology and major toponyms. I am not doing this out of romanticism reasons since ancient Greeks are thing of the past and modern Greece is just another small country living in the time of 'barbarian' giants (Russia, Turkey, Germany, UK, USA, China, India, potentially Arab Union etc etc). It would make more sense for me to dwell on greatness of Slavs since Russia is exponentially stronger then Greece and as you said bigger (although this was accomplished many many centuries after the barbarian invasion and thus remains unrelated to us in Balkans). But this is not about today but about discovering the past. In the past Slavs were but another primitive people who did not even have a city of their own before coming to Balkans as neither did Scandinavians. These were primitive Swamp dwelling (Slavs) and Forest dwelling (Germanics) populations who were nowhere as numerous as city dwelling Greeks or Romans. Celts were a tad more culturally elevated and had villages inside of forests but still were in numbers vastly bellow the cultured people of Romans and Greeks. The difference in technology at the time between the two would be like comparing American Natives of Great Plains (say Sioux who in this case would become Slavs, Scandinavians or Celts for the sake of comparison -- take your pick) and much more numerous urban dwelling descendants of European colonists known as Americans (actually far more drastic then even that since these American pioneers were far more brutish). Slavs were only lucky that Byzantines did not have their sights set out on only them but primarily on also numerous and cultured Persians and Arabs in Anatolia where they were fighting wars of survival that forced them to leave Balkans undefended as I posted countless times with links and now posting ye again. How can smaller population impose language on a larger population?
You guys are way too emotional and unable to see what really happened here. Byzantines were fighting wars of survival in Anatolia against first Persians ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Sassanid_Wars#Climax ) and then shortly afterwords Arabs ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Arab_Wars#Opening_conflicts ) . This is used by Slavs and Turkics (Bulgars, Avars etc) who attack Balkans provinces of which many are left undefended (being that Byzantines were at their weakest).
By this time the Persians had conquered Mesopotamia and the Caucasus, and in 611 they overran Syria and entered Anatolia. A major counter-attack led by Heraclius two years later was decisively defeated outside Antioch by Shahrbaraz and Shahin and the Roman position collapsed; the Persians devastated parts of Asia Minor, and captured Chalcedon on the Bosporus.[61] Over the following decade the Persians were able to conquer Palestine and Egypt (by mid-621 the whole province was in their hands[62]) and to devastate Anatolia,[63] while the Avars and Slavs took advantage of the situation to overrun the Balkans, bringing the Roman Empire to the brink of destruction.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine%E2%80%93Sassanid_Wars#Climax
The withdrawal of large numbers of troops from the Balkans to combat the Persians and then the Arabs in the east opened the door for the gradual southward expansion of Slavic peoples into the peninsula, and, as in Anatolia, many cities shrank to small fortified settlements.[52] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire#Heraclian_dynasty
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Interaction with the Balkan population
Prior to the advent of Roman rule, a number of native or autochthonous populations had lived in the Balkans since ancient times. There were, of course, the Greeks south of the Jireček line. To the north, there were Illyrians in the western portion (Illyricum), Thracians in Thrace (modern Bulgaria and eastern Macedonia), and Dacians in Moesia (northern Bulgaria and northeastern Serbia) and Dacia (modern Romania). They were mainly tribalistic and generally lacked awareness of any greater ethno-political affiliations. Over the classical ages, they were at times invaded, conquered and influenced by Celts, Greeks and Romans. Roman influence, however, was limited to the cities, which were concentrated along the Dalmatian coast, in Greece, and a few scattered cities inside the Balkan interior particularly along the river Danube (Sirmium, Belgrade, Niš). Roman citizens from throughout the empire settled in these cities and in the adjacent countryside. The vast hinterland was still populated by indigenous peoples who likely retained their own tribalistic character.[10]
Following the fall of Rome and numerous barbarian raids, the population in the Balkans dropped, as did commerce and general standards of living. Many people were killed, or taken prisoner by invaders. This demographic decline was particularly attributed to a drop in the number of indigenous peasants living in the rural countryside. They were the most vulnerable to raids and were also hardest hit by the financial crises that plagued the falling empire. However, the Balkans were not desolate. Only certain areas tended to be affected by the raids (lands around major land routes). People sought refuge inside fortified cities, whilst others fled to remote mountains and forests, joining their non-Romanized kin and adopting a transhumant pastoral lifestyle. The larger cities were able to persevere, even flourish, through the hard times. Archaeological evidence suggests that the culture in the cities changed whereby Roman-styled forums and large public buildings were abandoned and cities were modified (i.e. built on top of hills or cliff-tops and fortified by walls). The centerpiece of such cities was the church. This transformation from a Roman culture to a Byzantine one was paralleled by a rise of a new ruling class: the old land-owning aristocracy gave way to rule by military elites and the clergy.[12]
In addition to the autochthons, there were remnants of previous invaders such as "Huns" and various Germanic peoples when the Slavs arrived. Sarmatian tribes (such as the Iazyges) are recorded to have still lived in the Banat region of the Danube.[10]
As the Slavs spread south into the Balkans, they interacted with the numerous peoples and cultures. Since their lifestyle revolved around agriculture, they preferentially settled rural lands along the major highway networks which they moved along. Whilst they could not take the larger fortified towns, they looted the countryside and captured many prisoners. In his Strategikon, Pseudo-Maurice noted that it was commonplace for Slavs to accept newly acquired prisoners into their ranks. Despite Byzantine accounts of "pillaging" and "looting", it is possible that many indigenous peoples voluntarily assimilated with the Slavs. The Slavs lacked an organised, centrally ruled organisation which actually hastened the process of willful Slavicisation. The strongest evidence for such a co-existence is from archaeological remains along the Danube and Dacia known as the Ipoteşti-Cândeşti culture. Here, the villages dating back to the 6th century represent a continuity with the earlier Slavic Pen'kovka culture; modified by admixture with Daco-Getic, Daco-Roman and/or Byzantine elements within the same village. Such interactions awarded the pre-Slavic populace protection within the ranks of a dominant, new tribe. In return, they contributed to the genetic and cultural development the South Slavs. This phenomenon ultimately led to an exchange of various loan-words. For example, the Slavic name for "Greeks", Grci, is derived from the Latin Graecus presumably encountered through the local Romanised populace. Conversely, the Vlachs borrowed many Slavic words, especially pertaining to agricultural terms. Whether any of the original Thracian or Illyrian culture and language remained by the time Slavs arrived is a matter of debate. It is a difficult issue to analyse because of the overriding Greek and Roman influence in the region.
Over time, more and more of the Latin-speaking natives (generally referred to as Vlachs) were assimilated (such that, in the western Balkans, Vlach came be a socio-occupational term rather than ethnic term.[13] The Romance speakers within the fortified Dalmatian cities managed to retain their culture and language for a longer time, Dalmatian was spoken until the high Middle Ages. However, they too were eventually assimilated into the body of Slavs. In contrast, the Romano-Dacians in Wallachia managed to maintain their Latin-based language, despite much Slavic influence. After centuries of peaceful co-existence, the groups fused to form the Romanians.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Interaction_with_the_Balkan_population
PS1: Peda ( Pen de in Greek) is a word (related to measurement) for a size that means five or fifth and it is nowhere else present on slavophone areas but in Montenegro. PS2: Do not talk to me as if you know me or as if I owe you something. I was not born a Slav or anything but as a baby like any other. I grow up being though of being that I am a Slav or whatever else propaganda was spoon feed to us at that time to serve pan-slavist agenda. Anthropology and genetics has definitively defeated the notion of us being descendants of actual slavs but has proven that we are descendants of slavized pre-slavic populations that were there. I am not interested in romanticism (which you obviously are) but in what actually happened.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 17, 2011 14:09:25 GMT -5
Grčki naučnik Gergios Mpampinioti, pozivajući se na nemačkog lingvistu Paula Krečmera i austrijskog istoričara Frica Šašermejera, iznosi da u starogrčkom postoje dva temelja: prvi je jezik iz Male Azije (Pelazgi i ostali), drugi je dunavski, sa severa Balkana. Greek scientist Giorgios Mpampinioti, siting German linguist "Paul Krechmer" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer ) i Austrian historian "Fric Shashermejer" ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Schachermeyr ) (I wish Serbs would just write in addition original spelling of these people ) that the ancient Greek has two foundations: first language from minor asia (Pelasgians etc), second is Danubian, from north Balkans. www.politika.rs/rubrike/Drustvo/Stari-Jelini-iz-Lapova.lt.html
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Post by ulf on Jan 17, 2011 15:07:55 GMT -5
haha, and you actually compare Greeks to Germanics and Slavs? That's funny man. First those two nations built Europe as it is today in less then 400 years(and they are still doing it). Greeks(and other people connected to Greeks) on other side haven't do a thing in last 2200 years.
"I'd rather drive old Mercedes then new Hyundai" rule here doesn't stand
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 17, 2011 16:39:17 GMT -5
I am talking about 1400 years ago and you are talking about Hundai. I can assure you that those Slavs and Germanics at that time would be unrecognizable even for their own descendants today in cultural aspect. It is clear that Greco-Roman urbanization and overall culture (which is basically Hellenic culture since Roman become civilized by them) extended north and east in Europe and made these people civilized to make them into what they are today. Germanic settlements were typically small, rarely containing much more than ten households, often less, and were usually located at clearings in the wood.[26] Settlements remained of a fairly constant size throughout the period. The buildings in these villages varied in form, but normally consisted of farmhouses surrounded by smaller buildings such as granaries and other storage rooms. The universal building material was timber. Cattle and humans usually lived together in the same house. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples#Material_cultureRomanization was largely effective in the western half of the empire, where native civilizations were weaker. In the Hellenized east, ancient civilizations like those of Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Judea and Syria, effectively resisted all but its most superficial effects. When the empire was divided into two, in the east where Greek culture was centered, the East Roman (Byzantine) Empire was marked by the increasing strength of specifically Greek culture and language to the detriment of the Latin language and other romanizing influences, even though its citizens continued to regard themselves as Romans. The most romanized regions of the empire were Italy, the Iberian Peninsula, Gaul, Dalmatia and Dacia. Romanization in most of these regions remains such a powerful cultural influence in most aspects of life today that they are described as "Latin countries". This is most evident in those European countries in which Latin derived languages are spoken and former colonies that have inherited these languages and other Roman influences. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_%28cultural%29#Results_of_RomanizationEarly Slavic settlements were no larger than 0.5 to 2 hectares. Settlements were often temporary, perhaps a reflection of the itinerant form agriculture they practiced.[71] Settlements were often located on river terraces. The largest proportion of settlement features were the sunken buildings, called Grubenhauser in German, or poluzemlianki in Russian. They were erected over a rectangular pit and varied from four to twenty square meters of floor area, which could accommodate a typical nuclear family. Each house contained a stone or clay oven in one of the corners, a defining feature of the early Slavic dwellings throughout Europe. On average, each settlement consisted of fifty to seventy individuals.[72] Settlements were structured in specific manner; there was a central, open area which served as a "communal front" where communal activities and ceremonies were conducted. The settlement was polarized, divided into a production zone and settlement zone.[73 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs#Settlement_featuresEurope started becoming civilized again (from barbaric abrahamic dark ages) when many of Byzantine intelligentsia came over to western Europe especially after the fall of Constantinople that was the initiating spark for Renaissance by reintroduction of ancient Greek and Roman ideas. So on one side Byzantines were first decimated and robbed by Latin crusaders and then culturally stagnated (even went backwards) by Ottoman yoke while western Europe flourished under the new influence and after the chains of Abrahamic clericalism have been loosened.. The migration of Byzantine scholars and other émigrés from southern Italy and Byzantium during the decline of the Byzantine Empire (1203–1453) and mainly after the fall of Constantinople in 1453 until the 16th century, is considered by some scholars as key to the revival of Greek and Roman studies and subsequently in the development of the Renaissance humanism.[4] These emigres were grammarians, humanists, poets, writers, printers, lecturers, musicians, astronomers, architects, academics, artists, scribes, philosophers, scientists, politicians and theologians.[5] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_scholars_in_the_Renaissance
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 18, 2011 0:40:15 GMT -5
AADmin, gets educated from wikipedia lol! Admin, go and read some real book man. Some Peter Charanis (he is greek, you will love him) , some Florin Curta. WHEN SLAVS REACHED THE BALKANS< AND ESPECIALLY GREECE THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!!! When Byzantines brought Greeks from Southern Italy some time 900+AD to colonize Ileia in western Peloponese, the Ancient Olympia was already named as SERVIANA. The local greeks renamed it as ANTILALOS. NOBODY HAD ANY MEMORIES OF THE TERM "OLYMPIA" (hint: Olympia was the most famous city in Ancient Greece, the place of the famous OLYMPIC GAMES). IS NOT THAT ENOUGH??? The Greeks in Epiros (my land) HAVE NO MEMORIES OF THEIR TOPONYMS!!! They dont have a clue what huge rivers (Vojusa) or huge mountains (Olytsika, Smolikas) mean.... nothing... currently 500 slav toponyms exist in Epiros, 500 in Peloponese, 700 in makedonia. in 1926 - MASSIVE RENAMINGS WERE MADE...... This is a subset of the situation in 1940+ A lot of still existing toponyms are ommited .... happy reading... my greek www.kroraina.com/knigi/en/mv/here are the renamings : (virtually MOST the modern greek toponyms were made after 1926) pandektis.ekt.gr/pandektis/handle/10442/4968/simple-search?query=doliana
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 18, 2011 0:41:09 GMT -5
PS2: Do not talk to me as if you know me or as if I owe you something. I was not born a Slav or anything but as a baby like any other. I grow up being though of being that I am a Slav or whatever else propaganda was spoon feed to us at that time to serve pan-slavist agenda. Anthropology and genetics has definitively defeated the notion of us being descendants of actual slavs but has proven that we are descendants of slavized pre-slavic populations that were there. I am not interested in romanticism (which you obviously are) but in what actually happened. You dont owe me a thing.However, you owe to DEFEND your theories. That is the true AncientGreek stance. PS ROMANTISM??? ME??? The RESULTS speak for themselves.... WHY WERE YOU SLAVICIZED (if we accept this rediculous theory?) Pls try to answer this (to your self).
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 18, 2011 5:17:04 GMT -5
Only in these areas? Are they not also proportioned differently among the populace?
Illyria's borders have changed over time. How far south from modern day Dalmatia does the Illyria you're talking about extend to? I am also not sure what you mean by 'fully Hellenic?' Can you elaborate? Aside from Adriatic colonies I am not sure if the people in the hinterland this far north were neccessarily Helleni even if we are talking about the same kinds of people anthropologically.
This seems about right. I don't think Hellenic culture was as prounouced further north in the Dalmatian hinterland ( including most of modern day Bosnia-Herzegovina)
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 18, 2011 5:19:41 GMT -5
WHEN SLAVS REACHED THE BALKANS< AND ESPECIALLY GREECE THEY FOUND NOTHING!!!!!
Where is this information coming from? Which Slavic migration are you alluding to specifically?
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Post by Arthur Kane on Jan 18, 2011 5:25:57 GMT -5
I like your comment here. Not for its opinion but for demonstrating that you learned to think for yourself and not be 'told' what to think. That's right. Everyone is born a baby with no agenda whatsoever. I like your objective approach. Keep it up !
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