|
Post by SKORIC on Aug 24, 2011 10:42:50 GMT -5
Thought id refresh an old topic
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 24, 2011 11:07:08 GMT -5
WW2 is much like the recent war in the sense that there are many interpretations on what happened and why.
Lets clarify something there was no Yugoslavia during most of WW2 , that country effectively ceased to exist on April 10th , 1941 and the monarchy from that point was politically dead forever.
In its place rose the "Independent" State of Croatia which was under German and Italian control and the Serbian kingdom which was under German control as well. Bosnia was annexed to German/Italian controlled Croatia while large portions of Dalmatia , Istria , and Slovenia were annexed directly by Germany & Italy. Serbia remained a rump kingdom without Montenegro , Vojvodina , Macedonia ,and control over Kosovo.
My 2 cents:
Prince Paul authorized the singing of the 'pact' with Hitler to avoid German invasion of his kingdom. The kingdom was already falling apart from within only held up by the fragile Macek-Cvetkovic agreement. The Germans were already more likely to support the extreme Croat organizations , most of whom were already abroad and this meant that Serbia would lose control over land outside of Serbia where Serbs lived.
Prince Paul , despite what Serbs might say , was still thinking like a Serb nationalist but he was thinking practically. At the time Germany was a powerhouse and could modify the politics of almost any country it saw fit , especially fragile Yugoslavia which meant the Germans could favor the Croats over the Serbs if they directly administered the country. Prince Paul and Milan Nedic didn't see an allied victory as reality early in the war which is why the sided with the Germans to avoid having Serbia completely dismantled.
Mihailovic and co had a different view. They were already promised aid by the allies and believed the allies would emerge victorious when the smoke cleared. Mihailovic believed that the English would be sympathetic to their relations with the Serb monarchy and fully back a Serbian centered kingdom after the war - much a return to the grueling life non-Serbs faced between the wars. Had Hitler been behind the formation of a Great Serbia ( i.e. allowing BiH and Macedonia to be part of Serbia rather than Croatia or Bulgaria) then Mihailovic would've directly worked with the Nazis from day one I think. The Serbs ( as well as the Croats) cared little for the Jewish question , Nazi ideology , or Stalinism. What mattered to them was 'which side' best helped them achieve their own goals.
Most Croats welcomed the German 'liberation.' When compared to how they lived before an overthrow of the monarchy was a welcomed situation. This is why most of the Croat ( and Muslim) citizenary either passively or actively supported the new regime... Germany offered them their own country. Not all Croats were enchanted with this prospect though as in Dalmatia where Italians brutalized the local Croat populace with the aid of Cetniks.
Croats formed one of the first anti-fascist and pro socialist resistance groups in all of Europe , not for Yugoslavia but for their own country. Serbs joined as well.
Either way this region was screwed. Too far and too insignificant for the allies to have any direct interest it was left to the whims of the Axis , the Soviets , and the local warlords. Democracy didn't have a prayer when faced against socialism-communism , tyrannical monarchism , or a brutal Oligarchy/dictatorship like the Ustase.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 24, 2011 11:11:33 GMT -5
"In its place rose the "Independent" State of Croatia which was under German and Italian control"
A small contradiction... being independent and at the same time under the control of foreign powers.
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Aug 24, 2011 11:34:50 GMT -5
Hence the quotation.
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Aug 24, 2011 11:54:53 GMT -5
Priso i agree with everything you say except this.
Mihailovic was an outspoken anti nazi for years before the war, to say he wouldve changed his mind and worked with them if they let serbia have bosnia and macedonia after operation punishment that left belgrade in rubble is simply incorrect. In 1939 he was even arrested by nedic and spent a few days in military prison for speaking out about the nazis and proposing plans incase there were a nazi take over, luckily though nedic didnt have support to court martial him and had to release him.
|
|
|
Post by Anittas on Aug 24, 2011 12:24:32 GMT -5
Sorry, I missed those. Anyhow, I'm not sure why you even included Bulgaria as a possibility of being forced by Hitler to be part of Yugoslavia (unless I'm misunderstanding again). Hitler and Bulgaria were great buds. He gave them land for free. From Romania, of course. And they were allowed to keep it. Okay, sorry again. This is not supposed to be about Bulgaria.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Aug 25, 2011 3:24:09 GMT -5
^ Its o.k Anittas, you can speak your mind here. Tell you something, if Nazi Germany had won, half of Serbia would now be known as BuLgarska. Entire Bosnia would now be known as Croatia and Greater Albania as an entity.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 3:57:06 GMT -5
Mihailovic was an outspoken anti nazi for years before the war, to say he wouldve changed his mind and worked with them if they let serbia have bosnia and macedonia after operation punishment that left belgrade in rubble is simply incorrect. In 1939 he was even arrested by nedic and spent a few days in military prison for speaking out about the nazis and proposing plans incase there were a nazi take over, luckily though nedic didnt have support to court martial him and had to release him. He decided to collaborate with the Ustasa. What would stop him from siding with Nazi Germany if Serbia was favoured over Croatia?
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Aug 25, 2011 4:00:45 GMT -5
He decided to collaborate with the Ustasa.
WTF are you talking about ? who decided to collaborate with the Ustasa ?
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 4:05:56 GMT -5
The Chetniks collaborated extensively and systematically with the Italian occupation forces until the Italian capitulation in September 1943, and beginning in 1944, portions of the Chetnik movement of Draža Mihailović collaborated openly with the Germans and Ustaša forces in Serbia and Croatia. -- The three Yugoslavias: state-building and legitimation, 1918-2005 Pg 145
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Aug 25, 2011 4:26:05 GMT -5
If portions of Cetniks collaborated with the Ustasa, Draza most certainly did not.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 4:36:30 GMT -5
If portions of Cetniks collaborated with the Ustasa, Draza most certainly did not. Draza knew this was going on. He hated communists more than the Ustasa, so he decided to side with the Ustasa (maybe temporarily, I don't know) to take down the Communists because they were gaining support and growing stronger than Cetniks and Ustasa combined.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 4:39:02 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Aug 25, 2011 4:47:14 GMT -5
There are no Ustase there, point out one if you can. These are the people in that photo.
* Mustafa Mulalic, Muslim Chetnik representative and member of the Central National Committee of the Yugoslav Royal Army in the Fatherland. * Mustafa-beg Salihbegovic, Muslim Chetnik officer. * Hasan-beg Muratbegovic, Muslim Chetnik officer. * Robert H. McDowell, United States of America Colonel. * Dragoljub "Draza" Mihailovic, the Chetniks' leader. * Mustafa Pasic, Chetnik Muslim officer. * Mahmud-beg Predjilovic, Chetnik Muslim officer. * 1st Chetnik guard of Draza. * 2nd Chetnik guard of Draza. *British Royal Forces Officer that followed Colonal McDowell.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 4:59:47 GMT -5
There are no Ustase there, point out one if you can. These are the people in that photo. * Mustafa Mulalic, Muslim Chetnik representative and member of the Central National Committee of the Yugoslav Royal Army in the Fatherland. * Mustafa-beg Salihbegovic, Muslim Chetnik officer. * Hasan-beg Muratbegovic, Muslim Chetnik officer. * Robert H. McDowell, United States of America Colonel. * Dragoljub "Draza" Mihailovic, the Chetniks' leader. * Mustafa Pasic, Chetnik Muslim officer. * Mahmud-beg Predjilovic, Chetnik Muslim officer. * 1st Chetnik guard of Draza. * 2nd Chetnik guard of Draza. *British Royal Forces Officer that followed Colonal McDowell. (1) Colonel Lucic (2) Major Dangic, formerly of the Yugoslav Army, Chetnik commander, co-operators with the Germans and Milan Nedic’s men (3) Ilija Trifunovic-Bircanin, Mihailovic’s commander for Dalmatia (4) Milorad Ljanovski (5) Daka Tesanovic, Chetnik commander, and (6) Lieutenant Ignjatovic a German Nazi officer
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Aug 25, 2011 5:15:48 GMT -5
Never said there werent chetnik units that collaborated or totally sided with the axis, chetniks in dalmatia collaborated with the italians, Pecanac's chetniks totally sided with the nazis (untill he was captured by Mihailovic's chetniks and executed for treason) but one thing that is totally incorrect is accusing Draza of siding with the Ustase. Partizans with Germans: A Communist Partisan officer, right, with German officers of the 7th SS Mountain Division “Prinz Eugen”:
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 5:21:50 GMT -5
Never said there werent chetnik units that collaborated or totally sided with the axis, chetniks in dalmatia collaborated with the italians, Pecanac's chetniks totally sided with the nazis (untill he was captured by Mihailovic's chetniks and executed for treason) but one thing that is totally incorrect is accusing Draza of siding with the Ustase. I just showed you a picture of Draza with Ustasa. It's not like he supported the Ustasa, he just sided with them in an attempt to take down the Partizans. Partizans with Germans: A Communist Partisan officer, right, with German officers of the 7th SS Mountain Division “Prinz Eugen”: Do you know the story behind this? Three partizan emissaries, Djilas, Velebit and Popovic, signed a document stating that they will stop fighting with the Nazis and instead fight against the Cetniks and leave the Nazis alone. This was part of Partizan strategy (I guess you could call it that) so that they could take on one enemy at time. Later turning on the Nazis once more and completely pushing them out of Yugoslavia.
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on Aug 25, 2011 5:24:27 GMT -5
and what do you think the chetniks were doing when they collaborated? same thing on all sides, just depends which area of yugoslavia we're talking about and i pointed out that none of them are ustase, name one, or just point one out in that photo.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 5:32:33 GMT -5
and what do you think the chetniks were doing when they collaborated? same thing on all sides, just depends which area of yugoslavia we're talking about Yes I know. Too bad that, unlike other resistance groups in Europe, Cetniks fought battles alongside their enemies (Nazis and Ustasa). Cetniks were pretty desperate during WWII.
|
|
|
Post by balkanac on Aug 25, 2011 5:34:26 GMT -5
and i pointed out that none of them are ustase, name one, or just point one out in that photo. Draza Mihailovic fought alongside Alexander Löhr (Nazi commander), Ustasa and Fascist Italy against Yugoslav Partizans. If that isn't direct collaboration, then I'm Hercules.
|
|