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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 21, 2012 10:16:57 GMT -5
Become informed : vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdfI = Bosnian Hercegovina Croats 71% , Bosniaks 43.5% , and Serbs ( not surprisingly the lowest) 30%. Back to reinterpreting history for Greater Serbia. Genetics isn't working for you. Fixed. Liar. Btw, Bosnian Croats form a distinct minority in the overall Croat ethnogenisis. A genetic study by an actual Croat even came to the conclusion that Croats cluster in two distinct genetic populaces. Babylon, what you may not know is that the genetic grouping of Croats also coincides exactly with the differences already noted in physical anthropology, as well as coinciding with the different language grouping of Croats (look into the Stokavian dialect). Now, what Prijosanin is claiming in this thread is that Croats from Hercegovina/Dalmatia are the original and true Croats whilst the much larger Pannonian majority are Croatianised random slavs. Now, this difference in genetics, language and physical anthropology between Croats simply does not exist between Serbs from Hercegovina/Bosnia/Montenegro(Dalmatia) to Serbs in Serbia proper anywhere near the extent it exists between Pannonian and Dalmatian Croats. Caslav , nobody believes this crap you just posted. You look at the Bosnian Croats today and assume that they have always constituted a minority among Croats. Simply not true. For one , about every 1 in 4 Croats living in Croatia can trace their lineage back to BiH. It is well documented that a lot of Croats were evicted from BiH during the Ottoman conquest and then replaced with Orthodox settlers ( basically your ancestors). Banja Luka , Bihac , Prijedor, Sanski Most , etc used to all be the beating heart of medieval Croatia. And then the old language 'argument.' Serbs keep on beating this dead horse as if it has any evidence for Greater Serbia. But then its funny when Serbs see no problems in claiming the Torlaks of eastern Serbia as 'Serbian speaking' or even the Macedonians as 'Serbian speaking.' Geopolitical division of our people and influence in dialect doesn't mean squat when talking about the people as a single unit. Serbia and Bosnia were under the same state for centuries ( Turkish Empire) while Croatians were divided between at least three empires speaking three different languages, naturally were going to have more flavor in our language than you. Look at the study , genetically Bosnians differ from Serbs in Serbia. Serbia has far more eastern influences. The only solid continuity is between the Dalmatians , Bosnians , and some Herzegovians , and they form a single cultural unit which is different from other parts of Croatia or Serbia. Vojvodians and Slavonians also form a single unit. I did not call the Dinarics exclusively Croatian , this Serbophile babylon enigma called it exclusively Serbian which simply IS NOT the case and I presented hard evidence to the contrary.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 21, 2012 10:21:05 GMT -5
Also its clear that the study shows that the Bosnian Croats are BiH's oldest residents of the three major ethnic groups. But unlike the Greater Serbian mouthpieces , I don't care to make some historical claim on all of BiH , just a legit claim on Croatian inhabited parts today. The Serbs and Bosniaks can split the rest between themselves and for phuck sake lets move on.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 21, 2012 10:25:21 GMT -5
Become informed : vetinari.sitesled.com/bosnia.pdfI = Bosnian HercegovinaCroats 71% , Bosniaks 43.5% , and Serbs ( not surprisingly the lowest) 30%. Back to reinterpreting history for Greater Serbia. Genetics isn't working for you. Fixed. Liar. Btw, Bosnian Croats form a distinct minority in the overall Croat ethnogenisis. A genetic study by an actual Croat even came to the conclusion that Croats cluster in two distinct genetic populaces. Babylon, what you may not know is that the genetic grouping of Croats also coincides exactly with the differences already noted in physical anthropology, as well as coinciding with the different language grouping of Croats (look into the Stokavian dialect). Now, what Prijosanin is claiming in this thread is that Croats from Hercegovina/Dalmatia are the original and true Croats whilst the much larger Pannonian majority are Croatianised random slavs. Now, this difference in genetics, language and physical anthropology between Croats simply does not exist between Serbs from Hercegovina/Bosnia/Montenegro(Dalmatia) to Serbs in Serbia proper anywhere near the extent it exists between Pannonian and Dalmatian Croats. Babylon, historically speaking there's also much more reason to believe that the Pannonian Croats were actually the original Croats. For instance their first written text was in the Chakavian text of the Pannonian Croats. Prijosanins trip is that he's discovered that he personally belongs to the I haplogroup & now he obviously tries to claim is as Croat as possible which is utterly ridiculous Also , you clearly don't know what you're talking about since Chakavian was primarily in Dalmatia even as far south and remote as Lastovo. Chakavian was also found in historically in NW BiH which is Serbianized and Bosniakized now.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 21, 2012 10:27:23 GMT -5
The text you speak of is the Bascanska Ploca and that was found among the Dalmatian Croats , not Pannonian Croats. While were speaking of 'first written texts' you might also want to mention that the first genuine stokavian written work was called the 'Croatian Prayer book' and is still archived in the Vatican to this day.
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Post by groet on Mar 21, 2012 16:05:41 GMT -5
Claiming ethnic characteristics for haplogroups doesn't work, there's no "Serb" haplogroup or anything of the the such. The same goes for mixing phys. anthropology with ancestral dna, the genes that show ancestry is junk DNA, meaning it performs no purpose, therefore your Y-DNA or MtDNA won't affect appearance. Ironically, as noted by Priso, that haplogroup doesn't even peak among Serbs.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 21, 2012 18:33:56 GMT -5
Everything I wrote is correct, including calling Prijosanin a liar. He didn't even rebuke anything in this theory Babylon posted or what I said. I just noticed he also lied about the haplogroup percentages pertaining to Bosnian Serbs (try adding 10%). And no, it was no honest mistake. What we can argue about is the various interpretations of data but as usual Prijosanin went on his usual scattered rambling monologue. Babylon even tried to counter his ramblings but he just went on another tangent as usual.
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Post by Novus Dis on Mar 21, 2012 22:15:22 GMT -5
Everything I wrote is correct, including calling Prijosanin a liar. He didn't even rebuke anything in this theory Babylon posted or what I said. I just noticed he also lied about the haplogroup percentages pertaining to Bosnian Serbs (try adding 10%). And no, it was no honest mistake. What we can argue about is the various interpretations of data but as usual Prijosanin went on his usual scattered rambling monologue. Babylon even tried to counter his ramblings but he just went on another tangent as usual. The anti-Serbs are being unreasonable and throwing a tantrum?! That is so out of character for them!
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 22, 2012 6:12:57 GMT -5
Claiming ethnic characteristics for haplogroups doesn't work, there's no "Serb" haplogroup or anything of the the such. The same goes for mixing phys. anthropology with ancestral dna, the genes that show ancestry is junk DNA, meaning it performs no purpose, therefore your Y-DNA or MtDNA won't affect appearance. Ironically, as noted by Priso, that haplogroup doesn't even peak among Serbs. Yes of course. Most of these haplogroups have been well mixed amongst cultures since the stone age. So as fun as it is, the whole thing just seems like an excercise in pseudoscience to me. Just like any anthropology really. Your point is something more that Prijosanin needs to take note of anyway since he's been pushing I2a as Croat since he's been on these boards. I'm just more interested in countering the mumbo jumbo he comes up with to support this. In this case he's even completely fabricated information.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 22, 2012 6:24:07 GMT -5
^^ people fail to see that it is culture that create blood and not vice versa. They are happy and eager to lubricate their ass in order to be fertilized by an american/german cock, but at the same time they tear their clothes for their originality and genetic superiority (albs, greeks, croats, etc...) OTOH, superior cultures do not even need deal with such stupid concepts like genetics. Genetics are fine only to prove the Serbian physical superiority and excellence in sports, apart from that not too many uses...
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Mar 22, 2012 14:11:40 GMT -5
Caslav you can't call me a liar especially when I presented direct researched evidence to another one of your ( and Babylon's) Greater Serbia claims. The distribution of this halpolgroup has been already looked into and scientifically sampled and the results do not favor the Greater Serbia claim which is why you are upset. I'm sorry it doesn't fit into your little fantasy image of Bosnian history but it would be healthier for you to drop the fantasy and look at it just a bit more objectively especially in the face of strong evidence.
Caslav , it is not MY fault that your Bosnian ancestors probably were eastern Orthodox sheepherders that were placed into Bosnia AFTER the Ottomans. It is not my fault that your ancestors had nothing to do with medieval Bosnia but mine did. It is not my fault that 70% of your people seem to have origins outside of medieval Bosnia. Honestly I don't care , Serbocetniks are never gonna accept anything outside of their little narrative 'Srbija do Tokija' so rationalizing with you guys is a bit like trying to teach a kindergardener Newtonian Physics. I don't bother with your kind because of that reason and I'm sorry that your so personally offended by the evidence but that's not MY fault.
I care about today and really historical interpretations of some 1000 years ago mean very little to the average struggling citizen in BiH today. I'm all for Serbs having full independence and keeping RS ( although I'd argue for some land rightfully returned to Croats but that's another issue) and I would like to see both our peoples freed from Sarajevo's BS. Bosnia is an unstable state and cannot survive in its current form without force holding it together from the outside or another Tito.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 22, 2012 18:49:41 GMT -5
OmG lol. This thread clearly captures you lying. For all posterity. You presented Bosnian genetics as typical for Croats and you reduced the Serbian figures for your precious haplogroup by 10%. Either you don't know what you are talking about or you attempted to deliberately misconstrue data. You have been caught lying pure and simple. And when I point this out your response is this disjointed ramble well done.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 22, 2012 18:51:39 GMT -5
I really don't know why people feel it necessary to engage in conversation about Pyrros's ass. Just don't feed it.
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Post by ulf on Mar 22, 2012 19:39:36 GMT -5
Prisojanin that "research" you shown here is forgery
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 22, 2012 20:40:22 GMT -5
Yes of course. Most of these haplogroups have been well mixed amongst cultures since the stone age. So as fun as it is, the whole thing just seems like an excercise in pseudoscience to me. Just like any anthropology really. Your point is something more that Prijosanin needs to take note of anyway since he's been pushing I2a as Croat since he's been on these boards. I'm just more interested in countering the mumbo jumbo he comes up with to support this. In this case he's even completely fabricated information. Since stone age? Stone age cro-magnons were more homogenous than a random village from Europe nowdays. You're taking a jewish marxist view. Blood=nature is everything. Nature vs nurture, nature always wins. Here's a bible refrence for you (coined by me), "The tower of babel always falls".
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 22, 2012 20:45:15 GMT -5
Prisojanin that "research" you shown here is forgery I don't know if the study is fake, I doubt it. But there have been raised valid points of biases in the study. I opened to see it (last time I looked it was years ago) and the Serbian samples are clearly biased, there all from northern Bosnia near the Slavonian plane. Why not include samples from hardcore Serbian areas like Hercegovania, and their cousins Krajina? I wouldn't waste time with Prijosen, new samples in the future will settle the issue.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 22, 2012 20:48:04 GMT -5
^^ people fail to see that it is culture that create blood and not vice versa. Yeah any one can be Serb, including you.
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Post by Babylon Enigma on Mar 22, 2012 21:27:47 GMT -5
This is a tree of R1a clades. Fits well with the western Slavs=Vends theory.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Mar 22, 2012 22:00:32 GMT -5
Since stone age? Stone age cro-magnons were more homogenous than a random village from Europe nowdays. You're taking a jewish marxist view. Blood=nature is everything. Nature vs nurture, nature always wins. Here's a bible refrence for you (coined by me), "The tower of babel always falls". You can see here that a broad range of haplogroups are hypothesized for cultures of the Neolithic period; www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtmlAnd I support nurture and free will over nature.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 23, 2012 4:09:58 GMT -5
I really don't know why people feel it necessary to engage in conversation about Pyrros's ass. Just don't feed it. As if i care about an ex-serb-hater's inner issues... You think you can use me when i do a pro-Serb historical research (that is beyond your wildest dreams) and throw me away when i do not fit your agenda Your stance is not Serb. You got issues? speak them... you cant? STFU.
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Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Mar 23, 2012 4:10:41 GMT -5
^^ people fail to see that it is culture that create blood and not vice versa. Yeah any one can be Serb, including you. i am not yet one, and you will never be.
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