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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 14, 2008 23:49:12 GMT -5
So what are Kosovo Albanian names usually?
Are they mostly Muslim(Arabic) ones or Albanian ones???
Also,how was the naming conventions of Kosovo Albanians during the late Ottoman period? Did they have surnames? Patronymics? Characteristics? a mix of those?
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Post by ILIRI I MADH on Aug 14, 2008 23:58:26 GMT -5
The situation is something like this... Grandfathers and father - Selman Adem Tahir Beqir Nexhmije mostly muslim or middle eastren names their kids - Bujar Besnik Ilir Arben Albana Gezim mostly albanian names
during the ottman period there were only muslim names, with village or cities last names... Hasan prishtina or isa boletini would be some of the examples...
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 15, 2008 0:01:30 GMT -5
Almost all names were Muslim. The Surnames were derived either from the city/region you came from(in case you left it), the clan (such as Berisha etc.) or a patronymic derived one.
I think today there is a strong mixture of Muslim/Arab(including Turkish names) along with Albanian language/nationalist derived ones(such as Fitim, Besnik, Fatmir etc.). Although from my experiences, national names have a very strong edge.
I could be wrong though, perhaps Donnie or another Kosova originated Albanian could add to this.
Actually, Hasan Prishtina's real surname was Berisha. He only received Prishtina(Prishtineli) while he was a member of the Constitutional Congress of the Ottoman Empire. The city derived names were usually came from Turkish. The same thing with the Frasheri(Frasherli) brothers.
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 17, 2008 22:24:10 GMT -5
So basically there was no standardized naming conventions during Ottoman period and that second names,could be a clan name,occupation name,city/region/village name or patronymic(son of/daughter of) But GIVEN names,were mostly or were Muslim(Arabic) along with a few Turkish ones during Ottoman period?
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 17, 2008 23:09:31 GMT -5
Yes...
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 17, 2008 23:29:51 GMT -5
Can you Albanians explain these names to me..........:
Ahmet Pasha Dugakjini Bijikli Ali Pasha Haxchi-Achas Mehmet Pasha Kara Murat Pasha Mehmet Ferid Pasha Vlora Tabani Jassi Mehmet Pasha
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 17, 2008 23:31:53 GMT -5
What about them that you need an explanation...
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 18, 2008 6:37:39 GMT -5
I mean like,the naming styles of the names I listed and the meaning of the words that are not names but part of the names as you see
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 18, 2008 13:14:21 GMT -5
Well as usual, the first name is put first, followed by the title of Pasha, since this person would regularly be called "first name Pasha". Then it followed by the surname and then origin. With Mehmet Ferid, he came from a from a family that the Turks called "Avlonyali"(Avlonya = Vlora, a city in southern Albania). So among people from this family, this appears often(in Turkish Avlonyali appears first: Avlonyali Mehmed Ferid). So the 'Vlora' if anything is a larger family title.
The Kara isnt a name itself, it it tied to Murat(KaraMurat). It means 'black' and one of the most famous names with it is the Serbian king Karageorgevic. Haxchi is probably Haxhi, an addon given to those who make a pilgrimage(for Muslims to the Mecca for Christians to Jerusalem). Im not too sure what Jassi is. Many of these names seem to have some Turkish influence in their order as they were men of high rank.
What you see up there is probably a reworking of their original Ottoman naming order into Albanian...
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 18, 2008 21:56:42 GMT -5
but still,the naming pattern is different for different people.
I know there is a Turkish celebrity or some model,and her name is Aylin Kosovali.So I guess its like that Avlonyali guy.
And then there was that Albanian descended ruler of Egypt whose name was Kavalali Mehmet Ali,from Kavala.I guess this is from a Turkish source as it was KavalaLI.So the LI is the Turkish suffix.
But how is the Albanian patronymic name like???
Is there a site that would show the Ottoman records of ordinary Albanian citizens' names???
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 18, 2008 23:21:30 GMT -5
You pretty much nailed it. For instance, recalling the names of my grandparents' generation, I find only Muslim names. Then we have my father and his sisters and brothers (altogether six persons); of them, two girls have Albanian names while the other Muslim names. My mother's name is Albanian, as are the names of her two sisters, while one sister's name is 'international' and an additional sister as well as her brother have Muslim names. My generation, however, that is me, my brother and sisters and first cousins, almost all have Albanian names; only my brother has a Muslim name and this because he was named after our uncle who died young. This is usually why some young children still have these names; they are named after some deceased relative, for example a grandfather etc.
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 18, 2008 23:23:14 GMT -5
The Muslim names in my family are almost entirely the result of old Albanian naming tradition: naming your son after your father. So my cousins name is Ali because his grandfather had that name.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 18, 2008 23:26:32 GMT -5
Just like elsewhere. If a muslim Albanian was named Haxhi Bala, his son would be called Haradin Haxhiu, or roughly translated, 'Haradin, son of Haxhi'. The same with a Christian Albanian named Gjon Leka, who's son would be called Mark Gjoni. These are just examples.
Yes, many. They reveal what I just stated above. In the early phase of conversion to Islam, many new converters would still bear Christian patronyms since their fathers had been or still were Christian, e.g. Abdullah Nika, Abdullah Deda, Abdullah Gjoni, Abdullah Leka etc (newconverters were as a rule baptized Abdullah, i.e. 'servant of Allah'). There are still some Muslim families with Christian surnames, i.e. the Nika family of Gllanasella which is a Muslim village.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 18, 2008 23:28:46 GMT -5
The Muslim names in my family are almost entirely the result of old Albanian naming tradition: naming your son after your father. So my cousins name is Ali because his grandfather had that name. LOL, this reminds me of my predecessors who kept switching between two names only for four generations ... 'innovative' ;D
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 19, 2008 0:28:16 GMT -5
wait wait wait
I'm confused........WHAT is the son of in Albanian? In Arab its Bin(mine is Bin too),then you have oglu(Turkish),ian(Armenian),son(English),escu(Romanian) and then the Slavs:ova,eva,ic,ov
But donnie,what about during the time when the Albanians were long already Muslims during the Ottoman empire? The ordinary Albanian Muslim names???
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 19, 2008 0:46:51 GMT -5
In Albanian there is no real "son of", its mostly implied. There is the suffix -i/u that appears in the majority of names(so you have Besmir Ibrahimi, Skender Myftari, Sokol Ademi, Gjon Apostoli, Nikola Marku, Saranda Aliu ) but it is also used in when referring to the person or in a vocative tone, in fact thats how it is probably derived in surnames. Among a number of Albanian groups, the -aj is added at the end of the surname: Besmir Ibrahimaj, Lavdi Mustafaraj, Egzon Mehmetaj etc. etc. Albanians also borrowed the Turkish oglu. So you have Ahmet Zogolli(son of Zog) or Cerciz Topulli(im not 100% on this one). Names like begolli means "son of a beg", or agolli "son of an aga", Dervisholli, son of a Dervish, Hoxholli, son of a Hoxha. But it has never been universal, in fact its been rare, for instance Enver Hoxha's surname implies the samething as Hoxholli. The -olli seems to be most pronounced among short Albanian surnames, as most of the surnames I have found bearing these are no more then 3 syllables long.
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Post by arpagjiki on Aug 19, 2008 16:45:11 GMT -5
Can you Albanians explain these names to me..........: Ahmet Pasha Dugakjini Bijikli Ali Pasha Haxchi-Achas Mehmet Pasha Kara Murat Pasha Mehmet Ferid Pasha Vlora Tabani Jassi Mehmet Pasha Hi! the above written names mostly are of Ottoman style, in fact they are nicknames. For example. " Bijikli Ali Pasha", means Ali Pasha with Moustache, "bıyık" in Turkish means moustache. Or Tabani Jassi Mehmet Pasha means Mehmet Pasha the Wide Paw.. Toskali explained that Kara means black.. etc As for Begolli, Zogolli, Dervisholli, Rizvanolli (found in Gjakova) type surnames... they are also of Ottoman origin. They consist of the name part (i.e. Dervish) and the "son of" part (Olli, in Turkish "Oğlu"). So basically these aren't Albanian type surnames.
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Post by ilirdardani on Aug 19, 2008 19:17:44 GMT -5
My name is Ilir, my brother is named Arber, so basically my parents tried to keep the names Albanian/Illyrian and not go into muslim names like the majority did. When I have kids I'll name them some nice illyrian names (there are plenty of those).
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Post by hellboy87 on Aug 19, 2008 21:03:21 GMT -5
Can you Albanians explain these names to me..........: Ahmet Pasha Dugakjini Bijikli Ali Pasha Haxchi-Achas Mehmet Pasha Kara Murat Pasha Mehmet Ferid Pasha Vlora Tabani Jassi Mehmet Pasha Hi! the above written names mostly are of Ottoman style, in fact they are nicknames. For example. " Bijikli Ali Pasha", means Ali Pasha with Moustache, "bıyık" in Turkish means moustache. Or Tabani Jassi Mehmet Pasha means Mehmet Pasha the Wide Paw.. Toskali explained that Kara means black.. etc As for Begolli, Zogolli, Dervisholli, Rizvanolli (found in Gjakova) type surnames... they are also of Ottoman origin. They consist of the name part (i.e. Dervish) and the "son of" part (Olli, in Turkish "Oğlu"). So basically these aren't Albanian type surnames. Surnames or patronymics??? The Begolli,Zogolli are patronymics, with a Albanianized Turkish suffix olli. OK OK,WHEN,did Albanians officially adopted a surname??? But thank you arpagjiki
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Aug 21, 2008 9:02:10 GMT -5
At the same period as most other nations in the world; when the modern state-nations emerged.
P:s Aylin Kosovali is hot!
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