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Post by Dragos Voda on Oct 9, 2008 23:22:05 GMT -5
Do you think the Marxist beliefs about history are true? Will the proletariat ever overthrow the bourgeoisie and establish real socialism? The reason that the communist bloc wasn't real socialism is because it didn't develop in the western industrialized nations but instead in the eastern Europe which was based on rural agriculture.
Because people were reading Marx's writings a whole phase in the natural development of socialism was passed over. It didn't develop in the west because of improvement in living standards brought about by new technology. But that doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 10, 2008 3:40:46 GMT -5
Do you think the Marxist beliefs about history are true? No. The main problem with communism is that it does not encourage technological advances in as many areas and it is hardly as efficient as the free market. In the real world communism is doomed to oppress freedom and inefficiency and thus living standards are not raised in the process. In communism you have two classes. You have the general population which economically share the lowest common denominator and the ruling class which shares the highest possible common denominator. There is no "middle class" so you have the poor “the general population” and the wealthy “the rulers” and that is how it is designed to work.. Marx wrote an analysis of societies and predicted that humankind would move through various stages of development and that as each stage of economic development failed and was superseded by more advanced stages that so societies would move from failed capitalism to socialism to communism and that the forces driving that development were inexorable. It has been proven time and time again that it cannot work. It assumes many flawed principles.
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Post by givemebeer on Oct 10, 2008 7:37:38 GMT -5
was this posted in all the sub forums, lol...
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Post by Dragos Voda on Oct 10, 2008 11:30:40 GMT -5
Arxileas, I think you're confusing Marxist socialism with the ideas with Leninism. There is a difference. You can't say it can never happen because communism didn't work- that's because communism wasn't real socialism. It didn't progress naturally through all the stages of Marxist history because it started in the pre-industrialized Russia. It didn't happen in the west because those countries benefited from colonizing other countries and stealing all their resources. You need to assume there will continue to be technological advances in the future to keep our standard of living high, especially alternatives to fossil fuels if you don't think the proletariat will ever overthrow the ruling class.
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Post by adolfmussolini on Oct 12, 2008 22:10:58 GMT -5
Do you think the Marxist beliefs about history are true? No. The main problem with communism is that it does not encourage technological advances in as many areas and it is hardly as efficient as the free market. In the real world communism is doomed to oppress freedom and inefficiency and thus living standards are not raised in the process. In communism you have two classes. You have the general population which economically share the lowest common denominator and the ruling class which shares the highest possible common denominator. There is no "middle class" so you have the poor “the general population” and the wealthy “the rulers” and that is how it is designed to work.. Marx wrote an analysis of societies and predicted that humankind would move through various stages of development and that as each stage of economic development failed and was superseded by more advanced stages that so societies would move from failed capitalism to socialism to communism and that the forces driving that development were inexorable. It has been proven time and time again that it cannot work. It assumes many flawed principles. Well even in Acnient Greece democracy wasn't for everyone but the elites so it does resemble Communism in a way, most people are too lazy if u give them freedom they will not take advantage of it, why not have the elite superior few rule the average Joes? I certanily wouldn't mind it, providing i was in charge, why shouldnt the wealtheri smarter class rule if they know what's better? every society has rules why not rules that will better civilization...
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Post by Red Brigade on Oct 25, 2008 9:08:46 GMT -5
ticalosul, unfortunately I don't have time at the moment but, as a former marxist, I will write a detailed answer about the various issues that you have raised as soon as I find time. Just remember one thing, you have to judge peoples views, actions & theories in the historical framework that they were expressed or conducted.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 26, 2008 4:56:18 GMT -5
I think the real Socialism took place in the Skandinavian countries and especially in Sweden with Olaf Palme. It was a succesfull system. Kapitalism... unfortunately failed as we saw. And the only reason it failed its because the AngloSaxon greed made it tha take out the worst of it. The cruel part of it... and failed ofcourse. Kommounism... no need to mention.. I also believe in Socialism... but I dont believe it will have a future. Socialism dont allow the rich guys to have super-super profits and super-super porverty and that comes to contradiciton with the AngloSaxon ethics. AngloSaxon had always that "King and peasant" syndrom where one must rule the other. Unfortunately their system rules since they have the power for the time being. For the time being... real Socialism for Europeans is utopia.
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Post by leandros nikon on Oct 26, 2008 6:41:39 GMT -5
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 26, 2008 23:18:48 GMT -5
And now that capitalism has started to collapse,what real alternative is there out there,folks??? Good question, no one knows yet. One thing for sure is that we lost the battle of the classes. Middle classes are being wiped out, lower classes will be wiped out. End result ruling elite ?
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Post by albquietman on Oct 26, 2008 23:50:38 GMT -5
I think we are kind of getting lost in translation here. If you hear the news today, because of the global crisis, people are talking about socialism, and strange enough, even the $700 billion bailout is called as socialistic measure from some conservators here in USA. And always when we spell socialism, the picture that comes in our mind is the east block and the Cuba today...that's what we think, because some are calling Finland, Sweden and even Canada as socialist countries. Now, that's too much, because all these countries in every ones book are capitalist countries, but just because they have some social programs to help the average people, doesn't make them socialist countries.
But the worse is when you hear people from middle class talking the same way, the same way that millionaires talk, and they are doing this for free, they are accepting the fact that some have the right to live on the expense on the others, and they are not not only accepting it, but defending it, and that's the saddest part. I never thought that brainwashing can get to this stage, but unfortunately the human brain is very vulnerable to manipulation.
Anyway, in my opinion, if we get rid of the words and their reputation that we ourselves have created, we can find a solution, because people today are talking about socialism and capitalism, but believe me, most of them do not even know what they mean...
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