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Post by Shmajser on Nov 3, 2008 5:49:30 GMT -5
"Kosovo is Serbia", "Ask any historian" read the unlikely placards, waved by angry Serb demonstrators in Brussels on Sunday. This is rather flattering for historians: we don't often get asked to adjudicate. It does not, however, follow that any historian would agree, not least because historians do not use this sort of eternal present tense. History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue. What is true is that they ruled Kosovo for about 250 years, until the final Ottoman takeover in the mid-15th century. Churches and monasteries remain from that period, but there is no more continuity between the medieval Serbian state and today's Serbia than there is between the Byzantine Empire and Greece. Kosovo remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word. But legally, Kosovo was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006. Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosovo had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosovo had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system. Almost all the other units have now become independent states. Historically, the independence of Kosovo just completes that process. Therefore, Kosovo has become an ex-Yugoslav state, as any historian could tell you. · Noel Malcolm is a senior research fellow at All Souls College, Oxford. He is the author of Kosovo: A Short History www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/26/kosovo.serbia
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 3, 2008 6:19:58 GMT -5
History, for the Serbs, started in the early 7th century, when they settled in the Balkans. Their power base was outside Kosovo, which they fully conquered in the early 13th, so the claim that Kosovo was the "cradle" of the Serbs is untrue.
This is the key part,it is also worth mentioning that Serbs were not really a people in the 7-th century,they were simply a social status back than. ;D
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 6:21:34 GMT -5
typical UK mentality.....its kind of funny that countries without any culture or history have a complete different outlook on how things operate in this world The UK mentality caused global hotspots like: Kashmir, Cyprus, Afghanistan, Iraq, and of course the famous Israel/Palestine conflict. Now this asshat is talking about kosovo...as if he has a clue about the region or history.... It makes you wonder...how they havnt figured out whats wrong with their foreign policy yet
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 3, 2008 6:29:19 GMT -5
These are historical facts my friend,i don`t see how Britts and their culture is relevant here. If you want to badmouth Britts,do it somewhere else. Millitary conquest does`t grant you a historical right to a certain country,imagine than how big Germany would be today or Turkey if that was the case. Same thing with churches and cultural monuments,
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 6:38:58 GMT -5
^^ i also posted historical facts. The brits had a major role in those present day conflicts that we live in. Brits culture is very relevent....they have none. So they cannot understand how other countries that do have " culture " operate....thus the conflicts that we have. I agree...military conquest does not give anyone the right to certain country...but I dont see you directing this comment to your other friends...like uncle sam and company anyway, the churches and monestaries in kosovo should be independent like the vatican is....or else you'll just have some hoodlum pissing in them or destroying them like we have seen our finest neighbors do in the past...
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 6:40:23 GMT -5
oh and by the way...how do you think kosovo got its independence ? wasnt miliitary actions the cause for this ? Isnt kosovo nato's little proxy country now ?
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 3, 2008 7:10:23 GMT -5
Every country in the Balkans is or will be a protectorate of some sort in the near future, Balkan countries are to small and insignificant to govern themselves, once we privatise (sell everything of value to the foreigners for pocket money) our souverenity will be a joke. At the end we will all be slaves of IMF and MMF(America )Action in Kosovo had to be taken in order to prevent mass expulsion of Albanians and a humanitarian disaster.Because of the Serbian "culture" and barbarism ,it was necessary. This may not be the reason why Americans bombed Serbia,but this is the case where both Albanian and American interests coincide, the end result of the Serbian military campeign would be Kosovo without Albanians.It`s as simple as that.
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 7:31:48 GMT -5
There may have been certain serbian paramilitary groups that were " out of bounds " in defending kosovo, but so were the americans in fallujah Anyway, we all know we live in a world that is politically correct. It works well for some groups while it causes pain and heartache for others. You are right about the fact that balkan countries are too small to govern themselves...thats the whole reason why the division of the balkans was a priority for our anglo saxon friends. And instead of being smart about it....certain groups in the balkans jumped on the opportunity just to smite their neighbor How can we go forward when we involve strangers to our own problems ? Divide and conquer still works well to this day...
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Post by engers on Nov 3, 2008 7:33:21 GMT -5
KOSOVA IS INDEPENDENT, and who claim that Kosova isn't INDEPENDENT it's typical serbian menthality (killer menthality).
KOSOVA IS INDEPENDENT
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 7:34:49 GMT -5
It may be independent....but you did not earn it with honor. And that is something that will go down in history...kosovo is an american creation...nothing more
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 3, 2008 8:32:30 GMT -5
Well, if we apply that logic entire Europe is American creation,if it wasn`t for them we would all be speaking German right now. ;D To make a long story short,Yugoslavia had to be dismantled,one way or the other,i would prefer that it was done like in the former Chekoslovakia,the peaceful way,but NOOOOOOOO Serbs and their "advanced culture" had to mess things up,they had the backings of JNA which was essentially Serbian peoples army,there was nothing Yugoslav about it,they have misjudged the situation,they thought that Greater Serbia would be achieved in a very short period of time,they had the means to do it, and the international support in the beginning.We all know how it ended. Greater Serbia ideology is still very much alive in Serbia,i am afraid only medicine against that sickness is NATO.
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 3, 2008 8:42:19 GMT -5
Well, if we apply that logic entire Europe is American creation,if it wasn`t for them we would all be speaking German right now. ;D To make a long story short,Yugoslavia had to be dismantled,one way or the other,i would prefer that it was done like in the former Chekoslovakia,the peaceful way,but NOOOOOOOO Serbs and their "advanced culture" had to mess things up,they had the backings of JNA which was essentially Serbian peoples army,there was nothing Yugoslav about it,they have misjudged the situation,they thought that Greater Serbia would be achieved in a very short period of time,they had the means to do it, and the international support in the beginning.We all know how it ended. Greater Serbia ideology is still very much alive in Serbia,i am afraid only medicine against that sickness is NATO. To suggest that America or UK saved europe from the Nazi's is seriously overblown. They came in in overtime of the game and cherry picked the goal if you know what I mean... The nazi's lost in russia in the cold and not on the beaches of normandy. Anyway...why did yugoslavia have to be dismantled ? Due to nationalism maybe ?, or can it be due to outside forces ?. Can you imagine if every federal republic had to dismantle due to some problems.. I liked the idea of a yugoslavia...i think with some reforms it couldve gone a long way....instead of dealing it with a death blow. As if now its any better....
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 3, 2008 12:47:02 GMT -5
Noel Malcom never fails. Nice article
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Post by kapetan on Nov 3, 2008 15:19:24 GMT -5
LOL @ there being no british culture
wtf
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Post by captainalbania on Nov 3, 2008 15:40:35 GMT -5
Brits ruled the world. What have you Greeks done lately?
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Post by meltdown711 on Nov 3, 2008 21:25:11 GMT -5
Shmajzers corner... how pathetic...
As for what Greeks have done... bitch and moan and call for Brits to help them... On top of getting raped by Turks from 1920 until the recent EU ruling towards the Turkish minority in Thrace.
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 4, 2008 8:31:47 GMT -5
LOL @ there being no british culture wtf name one aside from Fish & Chips....
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Post by Shmajser on Nov 4, 2008 12:07:44 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/Yugoslavias-Bloody-Collapse-Causes-Consequences/dp/0814712886if you are interested in former Yugoslaia i suggest you buy this book, i might scan some pages for you in a couple of days. Anyway...why did yugoslavia have to be dismantled ? Due to nationalism maybe ?, or can it be due to outside forces ?. Can you imagine if every federal republic had to dismantle due to some problems..I think it`s the combination of both nationalism and foreign interests,Yugoslavia as a whole had a potential of becoming a regional power,and we can`t have that now can we,so it had to be dismantled,as i said it didn`t have to come to all this bloodshed,it should of been resolved peacefully,it`s better to negotiate for 10 years than to make war for a single day,but tell that to someone who had all the weapons on his side, and an ambition to create a greater Serbia.Now we have banana republics with huge debts and whoever controls the money(Imf,MMF,foreign investors=America) controls the power,money makes the world go `round,world go `round lool. ;D You can make fun of Kosova all you want,but is Serbia really that different? Hmm www.cnbc.com/id/27515904Now ask yourself this question,why would anyone give money in order to "help" another country when they know perfectly well that they will never be able to pay it back,and that debt will only rise,is it out of godness of their heart and genuine wish to help out, nah, don`t think so. Is it because they are stupid,nah,bankers are many things but stupid is not one of them. IT`S ABOUT CONTROL Now they can say,well we`ll ease up your debt,if you agree to sell telekom Srbije for a "reasonable" price,if you sell Zastava(car factory) fo an "acceptable price",if you lick my left nut we will see what we can do LOOL That is how you create a banana republic,simple isn`t it.
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Post by chalkedon on Nov 4, 2008 15:53:11 GMT -5
exactly fyrom, kosovo, montengro,ect... so why play their game and become proxy states ? the shame is why ppl decided the need to be seperated instead of working out reforms that could of saved yugo as a whole. but like you said..it would of been a regional power and thats a big "no no" didnt they have a huge army ? i think the biggest in europe at the time...
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