What douchebags like these "e-scholars" (lmao) don't realize is, if it was that easy to prove something like this about the language, without a doubt, and if your dumbass could do it, it would've long been proven by actual people in the field and historians and it would be accepted fact. The Balkan wouldn't be a mystery then, as it is now. But it's more logical for this cetnik dipshit to think he is the genius who proved it first and everyone should listen to him as he struggles to find simmilarities in language.
Now WATCH, him respond with another pathetic attack.
Ok, if if kish is an albanized form of kilisa, a turkized form of the greek ecclesia, then an albanized form of a turkified greek word appearing in the Caucasus is proof of an albanian-speaking population there. You lojavi clowns are so desperate to make me look bad that you missed the connection.
Caucasian Albania was one of the earliest Christian states in history:
The first Christian church in the region was built by St. Eliseus, a disciple of Thaddeus of Edessa, in a place called Gis (believed to be the modern-day Church of Kish, near Sheki).
In 498 AD (in other sources, 488 AD) in the settlement named Aluen (Aguen), present day Agdam region of Azerbaijan, an Albanian church council convened to adopt laws further strengthening the position of Christianity in Albania.
Albanian churchmen took part in missionary efforts in the Caucasus and Pontic regions. In 682, the catholicos Israel led an unsuccessful delegation to convert Alp Iluetuer, the ruler of the North Caucasian Huns, to Christianity. The Albanian Church maintained a number of monasteries in the Holy Land.
The Albanians have been in the Caucasus since at least 1500 AD. There in the mountains, much as in Europe, they maintained their Indo-European language and uniqueness, resisting assimilation.
Then they re-emerged as a major regional power in the Caucasus after 800 years of silence and assimilated with the non-Indo-European natives. This happened to the European branch, too where Albanians 'suddenly' appear in the Middle Ages.
The kingdom of Caucasian Albania (Aghbania, Aghvania) was founded in the late 4th - early 3rd century BC. Albanians are mentioned for the first time in 331 BC at the Battle of Gaugamela as participants from the satrapy of Media. Parts of Caucasian Albania, including Utik on the right bank of the Kura river were conquered by the Armenians, in the 1st century B.C.
Physical Anthropology & toponymic data give me advantages other scholars dont have. But you lojavi Sipci & Balije go ahead & ignore that. I'm not saying that European Albanians descend from these Caucasian Albanians, just that the research points to one branch of the ancestral Albanian tribe of the Dardanians remaining in the Caucasus while the other went westward.
The terms Dardan and Dardanian in classical writings were synonymous with the term Trojan, the Dardans being Trojans, an ancient people of the Troad in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardans derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania (Asia minor), an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanians.
The Royal House of Troy was also divided into two branches, that of Dardania, and that of Troy (or Ilium). The House of Dardania was older than the House of Troy, but Troy later became more powerful than Dardania. Aeneas is referred to in Virgil's Aeneid interchangeably as a Dardan or as a Trojan, but strictly speaking Aeneas was of the Dardanian branch. Many rulers of Rome claimed descent from Aeneas and the Houses of Troy and Dardania.
The strait of the Dardanelles was named after the Dardans, who lived in the region.
The ethnic affinities of the Dardans (and Trojans) and the nature of their language remain a mystery. The remains of their material culture reveal close ties with Thracians, other Anatolian groups, and Greek contact.
Dardania has also been defined as "a district of the Troad, lying along the Hellespont, southwest of Abydos, and adjacent to the territory of Ilium. Its people (Dardani) appear in the Trojan War under Aeneas, in close alliance with the Trojans, with whose name their own is often interchanged, especially by the Roman poets."
Bibby says the the Dardanians migrated from Anatolia to Europe:
They called themselves Sardinians, Dardanians, Philistines and Tekelians and they were big, brown-haired warriors with amber-mounted hilts to their long bronze swords…the fighting men roamed the streets with their predatory eyes on the virgins of the town…
Therefore, many of them banded together and struck down the amber route to the Adriatic…to northern Greece and Albania.
Wilkes agrees that the Dardanains migrated from Anatolia to Europe:
In the Greek and Roman world…the Dardani…came to be linked with a people of the same name who dwelt in Asia Minor and who gave their name to the district of Dardania from which the modern name Dardanelles is derived. Other coincidences of ethnic names supported notions of a connection between the Balkans and Asia Minor. A current explanation cites as a likely context the large-scale movement of peoples…(around 1200 BC) when some of the well-established powers around the eastern Mediterranean were afflicted by attacks of the ‘sea-peoples’.
It looks as if, besides the Asiatic stocks, there was another element in the ruling classes of Anatolia…This is by no means inconsistent with the traditions connecting Moesians, Bythinians and Dardanians to north Balkan peoples when we recall the northerly extension and Trojan connections of the culture we call proto-Hellenic. Page: 64 www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/childe_64.jpg
Hence it looks as if an Asiatic population occupied the whole of the plateau. The Anatolian culture as a whole should be ascribed to this stock and we may recognize their descendants among the Dardanians who resemble the Hittites in some features. But this Anatolian culture cannot be wholly regarded as Indo-European. Page: 133 www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7681/childe_133.jpg
The Aryans V. Gordon Childe Chapter III, Section 2 B&N, New York 1922
Albanians and Anatolians share a peculiar cultural practice, too:
There has been much discussion upon the subject of occipital flattening, both in Albania and in Asia Minor; there are two definite schools, one which believes that it is natural and racially determined, the other that it is a form of artificial deformation caused by cradling.
Carleton Stevens Coon Races of Europe (Chapter XII, section XIII) Albania and the Dinaric Race Macmillam Press 1939
The Balkan Dardanians and the related Dardic tribes who dwelt in Albania are the only tribes of the Illyrian conglomerate who can be etymologically be traced directly to Albanians for certain, so it is only a matter of figuring out the origin of the Dardanians to understand the origin of the Albanians.
And once we've established that they migrated from Anatrolia to Europe, it is not that difficult to grasp that they migrated to Anatolia from the Caucasus, especially when we have Coons report from the Caspian coats of Iran, which does for Albanian ethnogenesis what his Coon's observation of Sphakiots and Montenegrins does for the ethnogenesis of the Serbs.
Physically, the people looked more European than any others I had seen in the Middle East, both in their facial features and in their clothing. Many of them particularly resembled northern Albanians, a people whom I had studied in 1929 and 1930 and I soon saw one reason why.
In Albania, mothers strap babies to cradles, which they carry with them as they go to the market or go about their work. Although the infants’ heads are no bound, the immobilization of their shoulders forces them to lie on the back of their heads. As a result the heads are flattened in infancy and this condition is retained throughout life. As soon as I saw a pair of young mothers carrying their babies in such cradles, I knew why these people looked so much like Albanians.
There could be no question of this culture having come from Europe. The whole trend of history has gone in the opposite direction.
Lojav is a descriptive word; stemming from loj, which is sheep fat/lard used in cooking and it applies ot only to the fat/lard itself but to the strong smell that it produces when it is being heated. Muslims use it instead of oil and they use too much of it which gives them a distinct lojav smell. Lojav essentially means 'sheep-lard stinking'.
Ofcourse, now olive and sunflower oil is common and only small number of poor rural Muslims use it, at least in the Balkans. It is my favourite way to refer to people whose ancestors converted to Islam for money and power, although probably 50% of Muslims in Serbia and Bosnia descend from Jannissaries, who were brainwashed after being kidnapped as babies.
But let's not allow this thread to get sidetracked. I just want to be clear:
I've probably analyzed less tan 9% of available toponymic data and look at the results.
The Old Caucaian theory stating that Albanians came to Europe in the Middle Ages doesn't explain the few important similarities between Albanian and Illyrian languages, whereas the Illyrian theory doesn't bother to explain the huge differences in physical type, language and onomastic discrepancies. None of these theories address the key issue: the origin of the Dardanians. It is by undertanding the Dardanians that we come to understand the Illyrians and the origin of the Albanians.
Never before in history has an international directory of cities and towns been available and never in the history of Albanology has Physical Anthropology been referenced, because it is not politically correct. These two tools make the mystery of Albanian ethnogenesis into something that isn't mysterious at all.
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Oct 18, 2008 16:29:10 GMT -5
how about Bardh = white Bardhyll (Illyrian Kings Name) = Bardh (white) yll (star)
You suck highduke ahahahah you need to go to a mental institution and get a life you are waisting all your life proving that albanians are this or that instead of spreading serbian culture, at least the good in your culture.
And out of all the people in the balkans you could chose to do this to, you chose the albanians, why? you feel threatened? hahahaha
Oh and who said that we are Dardanians? We are Illyrians dumbass! lmaoooo
Exactly he's wasting his time doing something thatwill neer bear any fruit, spiting others, insted of contributing something usefull to his own. Like he's gonna force Albanians to Caucases or some shit.
You made two terrible mistakes and the time you spent for your imaginary theory was waste of time.
Mistake number one: Kisha means church in albanian and its moust proppably and logically from greek word Ecclesia.
Mistake number two: "Bardha" does not mean star, it means "White"!, and albanian word for star is "Yll".
Your amater and imaginary theory does not prove that in the region of Azerbaijan some people once spoke the indo-european language albanian.
Which time period is in question highduke? in which time period did your imaginary ancestors of european albanians lived in caucasus? whats the time period of your work?
As far as i remember you tried to claim that albanians came from caucasus in middle ages with ottomans or with maniakos but you failed, how deep in time are you now? ad? bc? but you must remember that deeper than 7th century is not going to help your case. I know what drives you for all these absurd theories of your, its the very well recorded migration of serbs in to balkans in 7th century but there is not a single proof or record of albanians/arbanasi/shqiptars or arbanasi language outside of balkans!.
Post by PrijesDardanian on Oct 19, 2008 14:32:08 GMT -5
kish is latino/saxon word (and mean church and is not albanian/illyran word) and church gived name cause of modern name of village (not ancient...in ancient called GIS not KISH)
for your information KISH and SHEKI originates from the name of the Saxon (Modern English) tribes that wandered from the north side of the Black Sea through Derbend passage and to the South Caucasus and from there to the Asia Minor in the 7th century B.C.. www.world66.com/europe/azerbaijan/saki/history
Kish is indo-european word (in particular Latin) and dont mean nothing in caucasus language...you know that Armenia/Georgia/Caucasia was conquest from Romans and Macedonians (Alexander the Great)
Kish is just village and originatet from Saxon tribes.
NEXT TIME I WILL NOT TAKE THE TIME TO EDIT BUT WILL DELETE YOU OUTRIGHT ...ACT CIVIL...THANK YOU.
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Oct 19, 2008 18:10:20 GMT -5
So whats wrong with that? Your people renamed a lot of ancient cities and villages to slavic names so you can erase all the proof that we existed there before you just like highduke is doing right now, we are just renaming them to their original names!
Ehem, to the OP, you have issues... It does not matter who and what and where Albanians are, no poeple has a "pure" history. Albanians live in the Balkans, hell, to me people from South Serbia and Kosovo/Albania look alike, strange huh, you think that anyone in the Balkans has pure blood? Wanting to justify politics on medival history is insane in my book...
Demonel, none of those words mean anything in Armenian. Why should they? Ive known of these toponyms for years & researched their etymology.
Ilir & Luma, my mistakes you pointed out have been corrected and the consistency of the research has not been altered.
Luma, I already mentioned twice in this thread that Dardanians split into Anatolian & Caucasian branches in 1500 AD, long before Caucasian Albania was founded.
Ilir, Dardanians & Illirians merged but the Dardanians had different origin, names & language.
In the matter of physical character, skeletal evidence from prehistoric cemeteries suggests no more than average height (male 1.65 m; female 1.53). Not much reliance should perhaps be placed on attempts to define an Illyrian anthropological type as short and dark-skinned similar to modern Albanians.
Illyrians & Dardanians were two separate people even in antiquity.
The excerpt below is worth reading because it sheds light on how different Dardanians were compared to the Illyrians who surrounded them. For example: out of 20 place names (toponyms) in Dardania: 4 are definitely Thracian and 8 Illyrian. This means that 8 / 20 Dardanian place names are neither Illyrian nor Thracian - nor are they Greek or Dacian. They simply cannot be grouped into any classical Balkan language:
This makes any neat apportioning of the Dardanian onomastic material less plausible and suggests that the Dardanians are better regarded as a separate onomastic province. The problems are no less in regard to the place names of the region... Out of 20 place names 4 are definitely Thracian...and 8 Illyrian. The two groups are distributed in a pattern similar to the personal names: Thracian only in the East and Illyrian mainly, but not entirely in the West.
As modern scholarship becomes more skeptical of simple theories of how change occurs in the remote past, so the homogeneities of prehistoric and historic formations have been revealed as false of illusory.
John Wilkes The Peoples of Europe: The Illyrians Page: 144, 145 1992 Blackwell Publishers
Wilkes suggests that "the Dardanians are better regarded as a separate onomastic province". In other words, they did not speak an Illyrian dialect, at least not originally.
There is also the matter of personal names. Wilkes says that Dardanian rulers always had Illyrian names. But a number of other Dardanian names have no parallel outside the area:
The ethnic affinities of the Dardanians, from whose name is said to derive the modern Albanian word for 'pear' (dardhe) as revealed by the names of their territory have been examined by Papazoglu .. The recorded names Dardanian leaders during the Macedonian and Roman wars...are all Illyrian. Native names on Roman tombstones of the 2nd to 3rd centuries are unevenly distributed in Dardanian territory, with several areas entirely devoid of evidence.
In the matter of distribution, the Thracian names are found mainly in eastern Dardania...although some Illyrian names do occur. (They) are entirely dominant in the western areas...while Thracian names are absent. In favor of (Illyrianization) may be the close correspondence of Illyrian names in Dardania with those of the 'real' Illyrians to their west including the names of the Dardanian rulers... Other Dardanian names are linked with the central Dalmatian group...
Yet this leaves a number of Dardanian names with no parallel outside the area:
Prijesdardanian, no links please. Luma, my timeline is not a problem. I already mentioned twice that Dardanians split into Anatolian & Caucasian branches in 1500 AD, long before Caucasian Albania was founded.
As for questions of how influential my internet activity, specifically my website, let me
My website gets 20 000 visitors annualy.My website will be divided in 3 manuscrips. 1/3 of my websites traffic is repeat visitors who have my website set as their homepage. That is being taken seriously. Ask me to make the stats available. It scares you that the Lessons learned on this forum go way beyond the 30 Serbophobes who are its active members.
Im leaving for Serbia in Feb with $25000 I saved in 1.5 years of working 2 jobs and living at home. It costs $1500 to self-publish a book there and ship it to bookstores.
You lojavi are worthless. you band together like rats & attack thinking your numbers give you strength. Bravery & honor can't be attained by descendants of opportunistic converts to Islam for money & power and descendants of brainwashed jannissaries. Bravery means speaking the truth when outnumbered & outgunned even if it hurts you. Balije betrayed the Kotromanici. Sipci betrayed Skenderbeg. Both deny reality. Both hate Srpstvo. Both are essentialy Serb-derived fuly or partialy. You deserve to be holocausted.
hellboy87: Hey Kanariiiisss!!!!
May 6, 2017 19:57:32 GMT -5
Kanaris: Hellboy whats up and how old are you now?
May 9, 2017 6:42:02 GMT -5
Kanaris: 87 is your birth year that means you're 30....
May 9, 2017 6:42:46 GMT -5
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May 14, 2017 15:02:17 GMT -5
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May 14, 2017 15:02:43 GMT -5
pirro2017: Dear Administrator, do not forget that today`s Greek population are 30% arvanites -or orthodox albanians, aprox-20& slavs, and 20% vlahs, other part of population are from egyptus and Anatolia. So Haplogroups are close to these ethnys.
May 16, 2017 12:12:02 GMT -5
Πορφυρογέννητος: Stupid people are like glow sticks. I want to snap them and shake the fvck out of them until the light comes on.
Jul 16, 2017 12:32:05 GMT -5
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Jul 29, 2017 10:18:47 GMT -5