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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 7:28:20 GMT -5
This has been discussed before but no conclusion has been reached. I will like to ask a few questions: how is Dobrotitsa pronounced in Bulgarian? (give all the dialectal versions you know of; capital letter stands for stressed vowel and y for schwa-like in ygyl-also spelled ugul, agal-corner): DobrotItsa, DobrotItsy, DubrutItsa, DubrutItsy, DubrotItsa, DubrotItsy, DobrutItsa, DobrutItsy (all stressed on the 3rd syllable) Is there a possibility for this word to be stressed on other syllable? In one of the many Bulgarian dialects? Second question: Do you know if Dobrotitsa's name was ever mentioned as Tobrotitzas? This Romanian guy who contributes to Wikipedia says so. Go to this page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrujaclick on Discussion and the on Despot Dobro... Here is the quote: "The name used in contemporaneous sources: in byzantine ones (John Cantacuzenus' History i think) Ôïìðñïôéôæáò (yes, with a T... also some coins attributed to him bear a "T", supposed to be his initial. However, a hundred years latter Chalcocondilas calls Dobruja Äïâñïôßêåù ôïῦ Ìõóïῦ ÷þñá), in genoese and venetian ones Dobroticie, Dobrodisse or Dobrodize. In savoyard documents he appears as Desbrodicze, and in hungarian ones (written in latin) as Dobratich. Probably we should stick to Dobrotici/Dobrotitsa (even if i think that all variants are attempts to render "Dobrotitsə" ) Anonimu 21:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)" Well, now I just google Ôïìðñïôéôæáò and he seems to be right. Here are links: books.google.ro/books?id=NuUPAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA585&lpg=RA1-PA585&dq=%22%CE%A4%CE%BF%CE%BC%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%B6%CE%B1%CF%82%22&source=bl&ots=DLiw7YUhBT&sig=WenBuJ9OwHlPfn3LGRolLhbRKzI&hl=ro&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=resultbooks.google.ro/books?id=N-UPAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA62&lpg=RA1-PA62&dq=%22%CE%A4%CE%BF%CE%BC%CF%80%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%84%CE%B6%CE%B1%CF%82%22&source=bl&ots=13xRtdK-zn&sig=p9K9DmK6-pvxgbSqaUz-wVDbugA&hl=ro&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=resultStrangely the word seems to bear no accent. I wonder how was it stressed?
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Atan
Amicus
Posts: 307
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Post by Atan on Jan 9, 2009 7:50:44 GMT -5
Serban,
If I remember right you were quite good in Bulgarian ;D. Dobrotitsa is pronounced as you have suggested - stress on third sylable. It is all the same in every Bulgarian dialect. By the way it was common I think to put such ending in the names in Middle Ages Bulgaria - for example Ivanitsa (Ioanitsa) was other name of Kaloyan.
I know little of this guy - I know only he had small despotate in Dobrudja before he fell under the Turks. He ruled as independant ruler - one of the several small Bulgarian kingdoms which often fought each other and thus eased tremendously the Turks in their advance on the Balkans.
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 8:00:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliment. OK, so the stress on the third syllable. DobrotA-DobrotItsa? But how about the vowels? When I was in Bg I heard both dobrE and dubrE. How is dobrotA pronounced? DobrotA, dubrotA, dubrutA or dobrutA? Romanian claim that he was Romanian because we have bulgarian-origin names like DObrotã, DrAgotã, TrAncotã, TrOncotã (ã is similar to unstressed bg schwa, second y in ygyl or a in nova) and we also have diminutive suffix -iþã (IonIþã-little Ion=John, GheorghIþã-little Gheorghe=George) However Dobrotitsa expanded his statehood southwards, even south of Varna where there was impossible for any Romanians to have existed (if I'm not mistaken his statehood stretched far south of Jirecek line during its apogee).
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Post by rusebg on Jan 9, 2009 8:07:02 GMT -5
Both are correct, depends on the region. I don't know what the linguistic term for this is but 'o' becomes 'u', 'e' becomes 'i' and 'a' becomes the sound as in 'first'.
DobrotA.
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 8:10:00 GMT -5
Thank you Ruse and Atan. So there dubrota, dubruta, dobruta are not present in any Bulg. dialect? Even the people who say dubrE, pronounce dobrotA?
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Post by rusebg on Jan 9, 2009 8:15:23 GMT -5
They are different words. Dobrota means goodness, kindness and dobre means hell lot of things: good, well, right, ok, all right, fine etc.
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 8:19:32 GMT -5
Yes, but dobre comes from dobyr and dobrota also from dobyr. What I wanted to know is if dobrota is the only existing version. Even for the people who say dubre.
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Atan
Amicus
Posts: 307
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Post by Atan on Jan 9, 2009 8:20:36 GMT -5
You are welcome serban ! Actually sometimes you might hear something like "dobruta" but its wrong (although one might hear "dobru" in some old folklore songs). As Ruse wrote - its pronounced and written "dobrota" - since the dialects are slowly diminishing and replaced by official Bulgarian I guess its the only form of "dobrota" left . Be healthy mate !
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 8:25:54 GMT -5
Thanks again. So there is dobruta. That's why it's Dobruja and not Dobroja (because Dobrotitsa was probably pron. dobrutItsa. Are you sure there is no dubruta or dubrota? In eastern dialects: around Ruse, Shumen, Varna maybe?
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Post by rusebg on Jan 9, 2009 8:29:49 GMT -5
Probably dobruta but in the village areas. Even I who have an Eastern accent can't pronounce it in the ways you ask.
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 13:07:48 GMT -5
interesting, thanks again
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Post by serban on Jan 9, 2009 19:25:29 GMT -5
Serban, If I remember right you were quite good in Bulgarian ;D. Dobrotitsa is pronounced as you have suggested - stress on third sylable. It is all the same in every Bulgarian dialect. By the way it was common I think to put such ending in the names in Middle Ages Bulgaria - for example Ivanitsa (Ioanitsa) was other name of Kaloyan. I know little of this guy - I know only he had small despotate in Dobrudja before he fell under the Turks. He ruled as independant ruler - one of the several small Bulgarian kingdoms which often fought each other and thus eased tremendously the Turks in their advance on the Balkans. This is very interesting. How was Kaloyan called in Bulgarian (or other Slavic, if there are any) documents? Ivan, Ivanitsa or only Kaloyan? Could it be possible for the Greeks to use the diminutive version of Bulgarian rulers although they named themselves with the non-diminutive word? I mean could it be possible for Dobrotitsa to call himself Dobrota (like Strahota, Nravota, Belota) instead of Dobrotitsa? Do you know if the Greeks only used diminutives for Bulgarian rulers or for rulers belonging to other nation (Greek, Italian-Venician, Genoese- etc.)?
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Atan
Amicus
Posts: 307
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Post by Atan on Jan 10, 2009 2:14:11 GMT -5
Serban, We know Kaloyan as Kaloyan - that's how he was known also in past. However there are names of his - the mentioned Ivanitsa/Ioanitsa which were also used to address the same person. I don't really think this is Greek ending....It is very archaic form and I may be wrong but my opinion is that this is the more kind form (sorry don't know the exact word in English)....like if you address a kid or young man. More warm way of calling someone... So there is Dobrota, Strahota - but if I hear these names I would connect them to a grown adult man. Fiersome is some cases - especially when bearing the name Strahota ;D! And also there is Dobrotitsa etc. which doesn't project so much respect ;D. This is how I would interpretate the things. However I am not really sure of this. Maybe some other Bulgarian forumers could help more?
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Post by rusebg on Jan 10, 2009 2:48:00 GMT -5
I can't help at all. All words that end on 'itsa' in Bulgarian are of feminine gender, some of them diminutive but most not.
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Post by Edlund on Jan 10, 2009 2:48:29 GMT -5
Dobrotitsa is pronounced as you have suggested - stress on third sylable. It is all the same in every Bulgarian dialect. I've always known the name with a stress on the second syllable - DobrOtitsa. It's written with this stress in the book for Bulgarian names that I use (Bylgarski imennik - Jordan Zaimov). I've never heard somebody pronounce it DobrotItsa. I think the form Dobrudja comes from Turkish.
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Post by serban on Jan 10, 2009 3:23:33 GMT -5
Thank you Edlund. This is complicated. I will post the explanation of Bulgarian historians later on today. We have to clarify how Dobrotitsa is stressed in Bulgarian because apparently it was stressed on the third syllable in Greek. Please all of you take a look at the Greek forum: illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=15439Is Tobrotizas the nominative case, the one we find in dictionaries? Does the stress move to other syllables in other cases? Can you tell me if in Byzantine Greek there was a habit of changing the "d" in foreign toponyms or anthroponyms with "t" when introduced in Greek texts? For instance: the town Drastar (or Drustur), now Silistra in Bulgaria was written Tristris, Trestris. As far as I know there is no "d"-sound in modern Greek, only when preceded by "n" spelled "nt" and in loanwoards. Was that the same in Byzantine Greek? Another thing the medieval ruler now commonly spelled Dobrotitsa appears for the first time in documents as Tomprotitzas whereas in Latin documents variants with 2 "d"s are mentioned: Dobrodicii, Dobrodich, Dobrodics, Dobrodisse. and illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=15444In Tobrotitzas the stress is on -i-...Tobrotitzas.
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Post by serban on Jan 10, 2009 3:31:27 GMT -5
I can't help at all. All words that end on 'itsa' in Bulgarian are of feminine gender, some of them diminutive but most not. Edlund said when we first discussed the name Dobrotitsa that the suffix -itsa was a common diminutive suffix in medieval Bulgarian used for both male and female names. This suffix was borrowed by medieval Greek. So in Bulgarian this suffix is never stressed? IvAn-IvAnits, Petyr-Petritsa. How about three syllable names: Dobromir (btw how is this stressed?) Another thing is whether the -itsa suffix was always stressed in Greek: IoannItsa, DobrotItsa?
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Post by serban on Jan 10, 2009 3:53:25 GMT -5
so, dobrotA but the name DobrOtitsa? Are you sure Edlund? How was the male name Dobrota stressed then? DobrotA (like the common noun dobrota=kindness) or DobrOta? Maybe the first names in -ota were/are? not stressed on the same syllable like the common words in -ota: dobrota, chistota This is very complicated, it depends whether the Greek suffix borrowed from Bulgarian was always stressed on "i" -Itsa
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Post by Edlund on Jan 11, 2009 5:27:18 GMT -5
I thought the stress was on the second syllable - DobrOta, but the book says on the first syllable - DObrota.
I'm not sure, but I suppose that this is true.
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Post by serban on Jan 11, 2009 7:02:23 GMT -5
I thought the stress was on the second syllable - DobrOta, but the book says on the first syllable - DObrota. I'm not sure, but I suppose that this is true. I'm sorry i didn't keep my promise and post the explanation of Bulgarian linguists yesterday but i didn't find the book until today. OK Dobrotã is porn. dObroty in Rom. so I am not sure your books's author wasn't influenced by Romanian. What does the Imennik say about the pron. of the word Dobrotitsa? Is it dobrotItsa (like in Greek) or dobrOtitsa? If Dobrota was pron. dObrota in Bulg. then shouldn't Dobrotitsa be pron. dObrotitsa (1st syllable stress)? What does the imennik say about the pron. of Nravota, Strahota? Do you have another example in -ota with three syllables (like Dobrota) in the book? This are the 2 explanations that apparently are flawless (see Istoriya na Dobrudzha, tom 2, pag. 389-390, g. 2004: Dobrudzha is Turkish word with Bulgarian etymology French scientist L. Lamouche has this theory: Dobrotisa-> (turk.) *Dobrotidzha (like Yoanitsa->Yenidzhe)-> *Dobrotcha (this is what the French says, Dobrot-cha, ch stands for English ch (tsh) not French ch (sh), i would have expected *Dobrotdzha not *Dobrotcha)->*Dobrocha-> (through analogy with Kyostendzha and Yenidzhe) *Dobrodzha (with eastern Bulg. pron.) Dobrudzha. However it doesn't explain why the Turks use Dobrudzha and not Dobrodzha (it only explain why Bulg. use Dobrudzha, because of the eastern dialect pron.) *Dobrotidzha had stress on the last syllable in Turk. and that's why the "i" falls resulting *Dobrotcha (not Dobrotdzha!) Bulg. B. Simeonov has this theory: Bulg. -itsa becomes -idzhe, -idzha in Turk. but the "i" is eliminated when in weak position after (!!!) the stressed syllable. So according to the French guy *Dobrotidzha had final stress but according to the Bulgarian guy it was stressed on the second syllable.
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