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Post by kapetan on Jul 11, 2008 17:37:50 GMT -5
kapetan you called my maps propaganda which more authentic like that you can't about find balcan maps even. 2) i said give me that genetist that claim you but you can't because dont have such claim...and who say here bull s**t? i can posts even from greek historians (even are famous) who claim Albanians are real Greeks and Modern Greeks dont have connection, or have theory Albanians are descedand of Macedonians and Geeks dont have nothing about Macedonians and even Greeks...they were themself historian Greek even famous in USA. Why in your Wikipedia dont alloved Ancient Macedoniansa and Ancient Greeks that have writet more article than Dacian theory? those such claim are just tinny majority of Illyrologist (read: the historian who is specialitet only illyrian history) almost 99% agreed about illyrian origin. No I said "we can all post maps and propaganda" but all that really matters is what EXPERTS SAY. I never said your maps ARE propaganda. And no offense but Albania has never exactly been the center of cutting edge science and academics. That type of thing is best left to Western science. And for the 3rd time, I'm not arguing with you, but you want it to be true so bad that you just get upset when anyone says anything different. It's kind of sad. All those people I named support the non-illyrian theory. The geneticist you ask for isn't one person but the results of mapping the Human genome. Look it up if you don't belive the results on Wiki. But they'll be the same. The best and pretty much only comprehensive and widely known book on the Illyrians is the one by John Wilkes.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 11, 2008 17:48:20 GMT -5
Here's a part that adresses the linguistics. The linguistic associations between Illyrian & Albanian rest on the few associations between Illyrian toponyms & Albanian vocabulary. But Albanian & Illyrian languages belong to two different linguistic branches of Indo-European: Illyrian - centum; Albanian - satem, making them mutually exclusive of one another. Wilkes elaborates: "In the case of Illyrian, the problems appear to be multiplying: if Illyrian belongs not to the satem group but to the centum, the common etymology of Gentius and gens must be discarded. There is no evidence in fact that Illyrian belongs to the satem group but the argument that it does is crucial to the case that modern Albanian is descended from Illyrian".Centum (western branch) Germanic Venetic Illyrian Celtic Italic Greek Tocharian Satem (eastern branch)Baltic Slavic Albanian Thracian Phrygian Armenian Iranian Indian A centum language cannot evolve into a satem language anymore than Swedish can evolve into Sanskrit. Illyrian could not possibly evolve into Albanian on the exact same grounds. John Wilkes concludes his book with a caustic condemnation of the state of Albanian Archaeology, accusing Albanian scholars of deliberately distorting the facts: "On the other hand, it is hoped that the unfortunate distortions which have marred outstanding progress in Albanian Archaeology will soon be corrected. As new guidebooks are demonstrating, the Albanian culture, as fascinating and varied as any in that quarter of Europe, is an inheritance from several languages, religions and ethnic groups known to have inhabited the region since prehistoric times, among whom were the Illyrians." John Wilkes The Illyrians Chapter: Prehistoric Illyrians Page: 280 Blackwell Publishers 1992
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 11, 2008 17:54:00 GMT -5
Listen kapetan i have very good informacion about Genetic and i know alot genetist but no one of them said about that your claim, you just misformed here in forum by any retard serb (like hajduke or any)
John Wilkes talk generally about illyrians and their History but he dont deny illyrian origin of Albanians (like your famous archeolog Semir Osmanagic) howerer he is not Illyrolog, right? read what say majority of Illyrologs.
Did you read book of your archeolog Semir Osmanagic, read what say he that skeletion that examinated in Bosna he say were close to Albanians and him and he claim my ancestor were illyrian...is not hard to find him book in Bosna if you live there.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 11, 2008 17:59:35 GMT -5
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Post by kapetan on Jul 11, 2008 17:59:36 GMT -5
I was looking for excerpts of the book, that's the only site that had it. I have no idea if someone else used that for whatever purpose. Unless you wonna buy the book and read it yourself?
You'll notice I erased any crap about Anatolian cuz I only wanted the parts of the book not what that guy thinks ont he site.
Semir Osmanagic is loon who talks about Atlantis who gives a s**t about what he thinks.
Illryain tribes (some of the most important) lived in Bosnia yes, that's no secret. Like the Breuci, Daesitiates etc.
But I think I'm sticking to Western sources and scientists like I said. Balkan scientists aren't exactly first class.
Now answer my post above and explain it please. The one about language.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 11, 2008 18:08:09 GMT -5
Ok no problem about hajdukes web like you or not Semir Osmanagic is most famous historian from your country that is know in Europe. kapetan 99% of western Academic and scientists support illyrian theory..... Dacian or Thracian theory are supportet by neighbors are generally Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians (is only one linguist-historian Gorgiev who support because bulgarians themself claim thracian origin), Serbs and Greeks but still majority of Romanian-Bulgarian Acedemics support illyrian origin.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 11, 2008 18:12:29 GMT -5
Ok no problem about hajdukes web like you or not Semir Osmanagic is most famous historian from your country that is know in Europe. kapetan 99% of western Academic and scientists support illyrian theory..... Dacian or Thracian are generally Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians (is only linguist-historian Gorgiev), Serbs and Greeks but still majority of Romanian-Bulgarian Acedemics support illyrian origin. We both know that's a huge exagaration. Or why don't you prove it? You asked me for proof, so I'm asking you. Show me that 99% of respected world scientists agree Albanians are Illyrians. Keep in mind nobody is denying that A PART of your heretige is Illyrian.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Jul 11, 2008 18:18:12 GMT -5
Ok no problem about hajdukes web like you or not Semir Osmanagic is most famous historian from your country that is know in Europe. kapetan 99% of western Academic and scientists support illyrian theory..... Dacian or Thracian are generally Romanians, Russians, Bulgarians (is only linguist-historian Gorgiev), Serbs and Greeks but still majority of Romanian-Bulgarian Acedemics support illyrian origin. We both know that's a huge exagaration. Or why don't you prove it? You asked me for proof, so I'm asking you. Show me that 99% of respected world scientists agree Albanians are Illyrians. Keep in mind nobody is denying that A PART of your heretige is Illyrian. do you live in Bosna? you can find easy if not from osmanogic but can by Croatian historians (and are alot bosnians balkanolog but i cant remember their name): Milan Šufflay, Henrik Baric, Alexander Stipcevic there you have all you want to learn (all were Illyrologs) oh man here i can post alot articles if you 300 i can, is not hard to find in google like you do you can find alot from Western.
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 12, 2008 2:13:08 GMT -5
Excuse me dudez, Is there a faculty of ILLIRIAN language and literature in ANY univ in our globe?
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 12, 2008 5:45:20 GMT -5
yeah, its called the albanian language
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Kralj Vatra
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Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
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Posts: 9,814
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 12, 2008 5:50:40 GMT -5
LMAO!
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Fender
Commanding Moderator
Hardarse
Posts: 2,653
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Post by Fender on Jul 12, 2008 6:11:30 GMT -5
As we all should know, Asia Minor is now Turkey.
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Post by bordura on Jul 12, 2008 11:29:40 GMT -5
Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu. God damn it! You call the above people experts? They are self taught enthusiast, above average brains, but in no way trained or experts in linguistics, archeology, history, ethnography or any related field. Lubonja is one that I had the chance of meeting personally (not just me and him). He would talk about theory of relativity with the same "expertize" as for Illyrian. The guy is in no way an expert an authority nor educated or trained in any of the concerning issues. Just an amateur or enthusiast of science and literature. What he says it might make for a interesting controversial TV talk show but, nothing on scientific level. They are joined by many international critics: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others.This guys i don't know so i can't say anything. but just from the above example you can judge how fishy Internet dialog can become since by just throwing a name in debate some one creates the illusion of competence. Kosovo/a means nothing in Albanian. But because has a Serb meaning the land doesn't become Serbian. If we apply this logic then Greece can claim half of Mediterranean coast as Greek land. Morocco might claim some Spanish cities. and so on. If cultures overlap some territory the exchange names. If y keep this logic then give up Nish to Rome ;D And Dardania means perfectly Land of Pears in Albanian.
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Post by srbobran on Jul 12, 2008 12:30:56 GMT -5
I have, in this thread, already posted numerous sources listing Serbs (and other South Slavs) as being called Illyrian up until the 19th century. Tell me:
1. Why does modern genetics disprove your claims to Illyrian heritage? In reality, this is all that matters.
2. Why is there a five hundred year gap in between when the Illyrians stopped being mentioned and the Albanians started being mentioned?
3. If the Albanians are descended from the Albanoi (which is ludicrous considering that you call yourselves Shqiptars), then why do you claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes (such as the ones that dwelt in Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia) with whom the Albanoi may have absolutely no contact or relation with. On this ground, Albanians have no right to claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes because their lineage (or so they say) stems from only ONE.
And, if you read the book, John Wilkes actually suggests that Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, and Montenegrins are the closest living descendants of the Illyrian peoples.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jul 12, 2008 14:36:00 GMT -5
yeah, its called the albanian language Illyrians were either Romans or Greeks. Since Albanian is nothing like Latin or Greek, I can safely assume that the Albanian language is in fact not Illyrian in origin.
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Post by terroreign on Jul 12, 2008 14:41:55 GMT -5
^That was a stupid conclusion
Because illyrians weren't romans nor greeks, according to roman and greek documents...
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 15:11:47 GMT -5
I have, in this thread, already posted numerous sources listing Serbs (and other South Slavs) as being called Illyrian up until the 19th century. Tell me: 1. Why does modern genetics disprove your claims to Illyrian heritage? In reality, this is all that matters. 2. Why is there a five hundred year gap in between when the Illyrians stopped being mentioned and the Albanians started being mentioned? 3. If the Albanians are descended from the Albanoi (which is ludicrous considering that you call yourselves Shqiptars), then why do you claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes (such as the ones that dwelt in Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia) with whom the Albanoi may have absolutely no contact or relation with. On this ground, Albanians have no right to claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes because their lineage (or so they say) stems from only ONE. And, if you read the book, John Wilkes actually suggests that Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, and Montenegrins are the closest living descendants of the Illyrian peoples. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he specificly claim Bosnia as the closest? By Bosnia I mean all Bosnians. I can't remember. From the genetic chart from the human genome project, Bosnian-Herzegovians (And mainland Croatians) dwarf every other group in the amount of Haplogroup I which is belived to have arose in Europe since it doesn't really exist anywhere else except in super tiny amounts. Herzegovinians = 63.8% Bosnians = 42% Croatians = 38.1% Serbs = 29.2% Albanians = 23.8% Kosovar Albanians = 2.7%
It can be found in most present-day European populations, with greatest density in Scandinavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Sardinia. The haplogroup is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe.Isn't that interesting? That specificly herzegovinians too have waaay more then anyone else? With Bosnia region trailing behind as 2nd place. I mean genetics don't lie. And if anyone doubts these findings check where they come from at the bottom of the page in the References section. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groupsANYONE WHO'S GONNA ARGUE AGAINST THIS PLZ READ MY WHOLE POST AND ARGUE WITH SOME VALID POINTS AGAINST THIS INFO. NOT RANDOM POINTS WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS LIKE "HEY LOOK AT THIS MAP".So this would indicate all the people of Bosnia have much more in common with eachother then they do with their Serbia and Croatia and other Balkan counterparts, geneticly at least, not in the other ways obviosly. Which makes sense we've lived together forever. And it was confirmed in another study which specifcily examined Bosnia-Herzegovina. On the whole, the three main groups of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in spite of some quantitative differences, share a large fraction of the same ancient gene pool distinctive for the Balkan area. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=16266413&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google
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libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
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Post by libofsha on Jul 12, 2008 16:33:44 GMT -5
I have, in this thread, already posted numerous sources listing Serbs (and other South Slavs) as being called Illyrian up until the 19th century. Tell me: 1. Why does modern genetics disprove your claims to Illyrian heritage? In reality, this is all that matters. 2. Why is there a five hundred year gap in between when the Illyrians stopped being mentioned and the Albanians started being mentioned? 3. If the Albanians are descended from the Albanoi (which is ludicrous considering that you call yourselves Shqiptars), then why do you claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes (such as the ones that dwelt in Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia) with whom the Albanoi may have absolutely no contact or relation with. On this ground, Albanians have no right to claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes because their lineage (or so they say) stems from only ONE. And, if you read the book, John Wilkes actually suggests that Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, and Montenegrins are the closest living descendants of the Illyrian peoples. serbs descendants of the illyrians? they why do you use an outright slavic language, exhibit slavic traditions, bear slavic features which do not pertain to a group of people which are native of the balkans, greeks, romanian and albs all to a certain extent bear physical similarities whereas you can single out slavs with minor effort, fro slavs to pass themselfs off as the offspring of the illyrians defies logic, genetics, linguistics and all sorts of sciences, when the slavs moved into the balcans penninsula, the illyrians were driven back into a nucleous of their territories, there were many wars, the slavs eventually outmuscled them because illyrian tribes were a lot more sporadic and far between as you move further up north and away from the coast, whoever regards serbs as the illyrian lineage is a clown and deserves to be ridiculed but its more pityfull some of these slavs actually buying into these fictional fables that some pseudo experts cook up, give it a rest with these garbage claims and lets get serious, who is claiming that albs descended from a single illyrian tribe? this kind of crap would incense the most neutral of people? albanians never stopped regarding themselves as the continuation of the illyrians, we only emerged out of the fall of the byzantine empire with a different name, which may have been bestowed upon us by others rather than us there is no account to attest to a move of albanian tribes into the balcans at the turn of the new millenium, there was not a single person that witnessed such a thing happening, our language is unique and does not resemble any other language in the world, serbo-croat is proven to be of slavic origin, so in spite of all these things you still continue to indoctrinate yourself with ridiculous claims, go ahead indulge yourself
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Post by Novus Dis on Jul 12, 2008 16:40:21 GMT -5
^That was a stupid conclusion Because illyrians weren't romans nor greeks, according to roman and greek documents... What documents?
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Post by kapetan on Jul 12, 2008 17:07:13 GMT -5
I have, in this thread, already posted numerous sources listing Serbs (and other South Slavs) as being called Illyrian up until the 19th century. Tell me: 1. Why does modern genetics disprove your claims to Illyrian heritage? In reality, this is all that matters. 2. Why is there a five hundred year gap in between when the Illyrians stopped being mentioned and the Albanians started being mentioned? 3. If the Albanians are descended from the Albanoi (which is ludicrous considering that you call yourselves Shqiptars), then why do you claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes (such as the ones that dwelt in Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia) with whom the Albanoi may have absolutely no contact or relation with. On this ground, Albanians have no right to claim ALL of the Illyrian tribes because their lineage (or so they say) stems from only ONE. And, if you read the book, John Wilkes actually suggests that Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, and Montenegrins are the closest living descendants of the Illyrian peoples. serbs descendants of the illyrians? they why do you use an outright slavic language, exhibit slavic traditions, bear slavic features which do not pertain to a group of people which are native of the balkans, greeks, romanian and albs all to a certain extent bear physical similarities whereas you can single out slavs with minor effort, fro slavs to pass themselfs off as the offspring of the illyrians defies logic, genetics, linguistics and all sorts of sciences, when the slavs moved into the balcans penninsula, the illyrians were driven back into a nucleous of their territories, there were many wars, the slavs eventually outmuscled them because illyrian tribes were a lot more sporadic and far between as you move further up north and away from the coast, whoever regards serbs as the illyrian lineage is a clown and deserves to be ridiculed but its more pityfull some of these slavs actually buying into these fictional fables that some pseudo experts cook up, give it a rest with these garbage claims and lets get serious, who is claiming that albs descended from a single illyrian tribe? this kind of crap would incense the most neutral of people? albanians never stopped regarding themselves as the continuation of the illyrians, we only emerged out of the fall of the byzantine empire with a different name, which may have been bestowed upon us by others rather than us there is no account to attest to a move of albanian tribes into the balcans at the turn of the new millenium, there was not a single person that witnessed such a thing happening, our language is unique and does not resemble any other language in the world, serbo-croat is proven to be of slavic origin, so in spite of all these things you still continue to indoctrinate yourself with ridiculous claims, go ahead indulge yourself I keep hearing "its been proven" but nobody shows anything. And other Balkan people have slavic language and some slavic tradiitons for the same reason you (and bosniaks) have alot of Turkish influences. That's what happens when someone comes and mixes, assimilates or rules you. They influence you. It's been repeatedly shown that South Slavs aren't as "slavic" as all other Slavs. That the influence is much more culturual(language) and for Serbs religious, then it is genetic or blood wise. Genetic testing has proven this and it's been posted. Look at my post above and notice who has the most Haplogroup I, which is indigenous to Europe. Herzegovinians = 63.8% Bosnians = 42% Croatians = 38.1% Serbs = 29.2% Albanians = 23.8% Kosovar Albanians = 2.7% It can be found in most present-day European populations, with greatest density in Scandinavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Sardinia. The haplogroup is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe How can anyone argue with that? What possible argument can you bring up against blatant genetic proof? In my opinion a part of Albanian heretige is Illyrian or Thraco-Illyrian. But only a part. There's no pure "race" anywhere in the balkan.
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