|
Post by raynon on Oct 26, 2008 18:05:07 GMT -5
Lol we "betrayed" our Illyrian heretige by pulling off a miracle of modern warfare against insane odds makes sense people simply dont know. they just. don't. know. dude, besides that war, if you's are so illyria, how comes you're all trying to be followers of the virgin mary or "French". lololol what's up with the fleur de lys on your flag? That was originally a symbol of virgin mary then, taken up by french king clovis after he became christian. Aren't you Muslims? At least most of you? Whats up with that virgin mary/french coat of arms symbol on your flag? What does illyrian blood have to do with virgin mary/french royal symbols? Yeh, you not only betrayed your illyrians in that war, you betrayed your religious orientation, culture and beliefs with the symbols you adopted for your first flag.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Oct 26, 2008 18:12:02 GMT -5
I'm not trying to be Illyrian. The lily is used in a bunch of European nations not just France. In Bosnia it can be found engraved even 2,000 years ago, and yes most likely by Illyrians. In France and other places it was a very Christian symbol, while in Bosnia it was more of a native symbol since the "golden lily" as we call it is native to Bosnia. Bosnians sucked at religion because they were isolated by geography, and our native church was considered heretical, hence why it was so easy to convert them to Islam. Catholic and Orthodox church competed for converts during that time. Just like in Albania. Lilium Bosniacum en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilium_carniolicum_var._bosniacumOur King Tvrtko adoped it officialy in the 14th century but it was used long before that like I said. It's all over our stecaks "ancient and medieval tombstones", it's all over crests and coats of arms of big Bosnian families, it's basicly everywhere. My own family crest had and has a bunch of lilies. It's the single most Bosnian symbol there is. All Bosnians used it widely it's just in recent years Bosnian Serbs and Croats kinda abandoned it mostly cuz of it's association with us. They mostly use their neighbors/couzins symbols. It is a national symbol, it has nothing to do with religion. The religious symbol of Bosniaks is the green crescent. The Lily is the oldest and most known national symbol. So that's like me telling you muslim Albanians can't wave the eagle cuz it's an old symbol of Christian kingdoms. Religion and nation = two different things. America doesn't have f**kin' crosses on it's flag lol. You don't gotta come at me so hostile man, relax. Seriosly Bosnians as a whole don't represent ourselves as Illyrians or Slavs or Thracians or anything else, just Bosnians. We use our native symbols and native culture. www.spiritofbosnia.org/?lang=eng&x=17&y=22
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Oct 26, 2008 20:40:46 GMT -5
Lol we "betrayed" our Illyrian heretige by pulling off a miracle of modern warfare against insane odds makes sense people simply dont know. they just. don't. know. dude, besides that war, if you's are so illyria, how comes you're all trying to be followers of the virgin mary or "French". lololol what's up with the fleur de lys on your flag? That was originally a symbol of virgin mary then, taken up by french king clovis after he became christian. Aren't you Muslims? At least most of you? Whats up with that virgin mary/french coat of arms symbol on your flag? What does illyrian blood have to do with virgin mary/french royal symbols? Yeh, you not only betrayed your illyrians in that war, you betrayed your religious orientation, culture and beliefs with the symbols you adopted for your first flag. WTF are you talking about?
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Oct 26, 2008 20:45:02 GMT -5
Even if bosnians prove they are thru and thru Illyrians, they sure disproved it during their war with serbia. If anything, they proved they were Jews by their actions, not Illyrians. Same goes for croats and slovenians. Only Albanians proved thr Illyrian mettle during that balkan war. Serbs proved their barbaric slav ancestry and were treated as such by the west. So anyone who opposes the Serbs is a Jew? Serbs act most like Israelis, there whole history is caught up in there victimization, which allows them with inpunity to dehumanize others so long as they aren't Jews (or Serbs)... Nations like this who's whole idenity is wrapped up in there losses and historical wrongings act out in nationalistic criminal ways to prevent "it" from happening again. Please don't use the Srebrenica or the recent war as an example, it is ongoing and unresloved and not the idenity of Bosniaks and there history.
|
|
|
Post by raynon on Oct 26, 2008 23:02:37 GMT -5
Even if bosnians prove they are thru and thru Illyrians, they sure disproved it during their war with serbia. If anything, they proved they were Jews by their actions, not Illyrians. Same goes for croats and slovenians. Only Albanians proved thr Illyrian mettle during that balkan war. Serbs proved their barbaric slav ancestry and were treated as such by the west. So anyone who opposes the Serbs is a Jew? Serbs act most like Israelis, there whole history is caught up in there victimization, which allows them with inpunity to dehumanize others so long as they aren't Jews (or Serbs)... Nations like this who's whole idenity is wrapped up in there losses and historical wrongings act out in nationalistic criminal ways to prevent "it" from happening again. Please don't use the Srebrenica or the recent war as an example, it is ongoing and unresloved and not the idenity of Bosniaks and there history. dude, learn to read. Oppose? That was not my answer. You proved to be more "Jewish" in your actions because Bos. did not prepare its people/nation for war with serbia after doing your independence gig. After seeing serbia attack Slovenia, Croatia, did you bosnians once think that serbia wouldn't attack you guys? That's where you come off like Jews of the past. You went to your own slaughter, commited by your own, never prepared for the worst after seeing so many Croats and Slovenes killed by serbian fire a a year earlier and what serbs did to Albanians when they were attacked and shut down after their first independence vote. You guys never took notes on how to do your Bosn. independence vote and separation right, and prepare yourself for the worst from what you saw happen to your neighbors and co -yugoslavians. Jews too, went to their own slaughter, led by some of their own leaders and to top that off, commited/planned by a Hitler who was of Jewish blood himself. Even after seeing so many pogroms, mass killing, shoved into ghettos/shtetls for 2,000 years, they still believed in their "Jewish leaders" and followed them to their own slaughters. Israelis are hardly like original Jews. Just like modern Greeks, both hardly resemble the honorable and brave people of the ancient world. Also, Jews, like Bosnians--all 3 nat'l groups--cannot live with or without their 'enemies'. If they reject their enemies, they could lose their world support and ultimately their argument to keep their land. If they accept their enemies, then, they definitely lose their national - religiious identity. Yep, just like the Jews. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
|
|
tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
|
Post by tyson on Oct 26, 2008 23:32:44 GMT -5
slovenians werent slaughtered. the only slovenians that were killed were like a couple soldiers, and thats it. it was like 1 day of crossfire, on the border between slovenia and croatia and it was finished.
croatians on the other hand suffered terribly
|
|
|
Post by raynon on Oct 27, 2008 9:55:54 GMT -5
^^ you need to address those who address you. I was addressing Blackswans.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Oct 28, 2008 3:35:48 GMT -5
So anyone who opposes the Serbs is a Jew? Serbs act most like Israelis, there whole history is caught up in there victimization, which allows them with inpunity to dehumanize others so long as they aren't Jews (or Serbs)... Nations like this who's whole idenity is wrapped up in there losses and historical wrongings act out in nationalistic criminal ways to prevent "it" from happening again. Please don't use the Srebrenica or the recent war as an example, it is ongoing and unresloved and not the idenity of Bosniaks and there history. dude, learn to read. Oppose? That was not my answer. You proved to be more "Jewish" in your actions because Bos. did not prepare its people/nation for war with serbia after doing your independence gig. After seeing serbia attack Slovenia, Croatia, did you bosnians once think that serbia wouldn't attack you guys? That's where you come off like Jews of the past. You went to your own slaughter, commited by your own, never prepared for the worst after seeing so many Croats and Slovenes killed by serbian fire a a year earlier and what serbs did to Albanians when they were attacked and shut down after their first independence vote. You guys never took notes on how to do your Bosn. independence vote and separation right, and prepare yourself for the worst from what you saw happen to your neighbors and co -yugoslavians. Jews too, went to their own slaughter, led by some of their own leaders and to top that off, commited/planned by a Hitler who was of Jewish blood himself. Even after seeing so many pogroms, mass killing, shoved into ghettos/shtetls for 2,000 years, they still believed in their "Jewish leaders" and followed them to their own slaughters. Israelis are hardly like original Jews. Just like modern Greeks, both hardly resemble the honorable and brave people of the ancient world. Also, Jews, like Bosnians--all 3 nat'l groups--cannot live with or without their 'enemies'. If they reject their enemies, they could lose their world support and ultimately their argument to keep their land. If they accept their enemies, then, they definitely lose their national - religiious identity. Yep, just like the Jews. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. No offense friend, but you don't seem to have the basic knowledge of what happend. Serbian army wasn't directly invovled in the Croatian or Bosnian War. Bosniaks didn't follow anything, they were simply unlucky cuz most of the weapons fell in Serb regions. But there was plenty of people who prepared a defense long before the war broke out. People like Sefer Halilovic and the Patriocitc League. Without men like him Bosnia would've fell in a week if not less. But chetniks never took Sarajevo (although it was super close at one point), thanks to guys like him and countless others. You're not knowledgable enough to know the details but trust me when i tell you that considering the situation and insane disadvantages we had, we pulled off, a genuine miracle of warfare.
|
|
|
Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Oct 28, 2008 4:06:29 GMT -5
Sefer Halilovic and the Patriocitc League.
Sounds so Rambo!!
|
|
|
Post by sweetnugs on Oct 28, 2008 6:26:37 GMT -5
Sefer did much for Sarajevo, yeah but.. Kerim Lucarevic 'Doktor' did far more. There was one battle where Sefer pretty much threw Kerim into a mission of no return but thankfully Kerim and his boys survived and lived to tell all about it. If it wasn't for Kerim, Alipasino Polje, Dobrinja, Mojmilo (Mladeni) and surrounding areas would have fell into the hands of Serbs right away. Juka Prazina disobeyed orders from Sefer almost constantly and he only listened to Kerim. For some reason, Juka feared and respected him. Sefer did a lot sure, but if you ask me, he doesn't compare to Kerim and his boys. Read 'Bitka za Sarajevo'. Great book which shines a lot of light to most Sarajevo battles and some other areas like Zvornik. The book is available in English as well via www.lulu.com, search for 'battle for sarajevo'.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Oct 28, 2008 7:27:44 GMT -5
Sefer did much for Sarajevo, yeah but.. Kerim Lucarevic 'Doktor' did far more. There was one battle where Sefer pretty much threw Kerim into a mission of no return but thankfully Kerim and his boys survived and lived to tell all about it. If it wasn't for Kerim, Alipasino Polje, Dobrinja, Mojmilo (Mladeni) and surrounding areas would have fell into the hands of Serbs right away. Juka Prazina disobeyed orders from Sefer almost constantly and he only listened to Kerim. For some reason, Juka feared and respected him. Sefer did a lot sure, but if you ask me, he doesn't compare to Kerim and his boys. Read 'Bitka za Sarajevo'. Great book which shines a lot of light to most Sarajevo battles and some other areas like Zvornik. The book is available in English as well via www.lulu.com, search for 'battle for sarajevo'. I agree and you have some good points... Karim Lucarevic embellished a bit in the book. Regardless he was an advocate of the Liberation war concept of total defense total victory in BiH, instead of the stall and pause tactic and hope that the international community is drawn into the war. He as well as others who supported this idea Dragan Vikic, Jovan Divjak were sidlined and marginalized.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Oct 28, 2008 14:06:05 GMT -5
When it comes to overall planning the defense of the country and everyting else.... Sefer is the God. And of course I could name COUNTLESS heroes in the defense of Saajevo and bosnia like Smajo Sikalo and Hujka and Talijan....but Sefer was the "brain" of it overall before anyone.
Mehmed Alagic is is a g too.
Seferovo Ratno Doba = good book about it. detailed.
|
|
|
Post by PrijesDardanian on Oct 28, 2008 14:48:37 GMT -5
macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/3717/46/Vecer: Macedonians tied to Antic Macedonians, Greeks to Celtic, Germanic, Slavic... Article Index Vecer: Macedonians tied to Antic Macedonians, Greeks to Celtic, Germanic, Slavic... Page 2 Page 1 of 2 Today’s Macedonians are descendants of the Antic Macedonians, says research results from the Swiss Genealogy Institute iGENEA. For a second time an independent research institution confirms what Oxford and Madrid University confirmed a decade ago. iGENEA is the most famous global Genealogy institute who once again frustrated the Greek government by confirming the direct connection between the Macedonians today and in Antic times. The question came from a Greek citizen who asked iGENEA the following question: "What are the roots of today SlavMacedonians". The Institute responded: "Before all, they are Macedonians, not slavMacedonias as you referred to them for political reasons. The largest part of the Macedonians are direct descendants of the Antic Macedonians. Only a minor portion have a Slavic connection". iGENEA backed up their findings with hard numbers. However, tying the today's Macedonians with Antic Macedonians is not the only disappointing information for Greece. According to iGENEA, only 32 percent of Greek citizens have Macedonian, Hellenic and even Arab origin. iGENEA further explains that 31 percent of Greek citizens have Celtic roots, 12 percent Germanic and Slavic origin, while 11% have Illyrian roots. iGENEA also negated the Illyrians roots of the Albanians. In stark contrast to Albanian beliefs, IGENEA says the Albanians have the least Illyrian roots. Only 20 percent of the Albanians have Illyrian roots, while 40 percent of today’s Bosnians have Illyrian roots. In the past several months, the iGENEA Genealogy Institute had been flooded with requests by Greek Citizens who, ironically, did not care for their own origin, but all questions were aimed at the Macedonians' origin. iGENEA in its research uses DNK analysis, historical, archeological, and anthropological sources. //26.09.08 (c) Vecer you are posting fake article from fyromian forum...joke where is original link of IGENEA? because there dont have such article.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Oct 28, 2008 18:38:44 GMT -5
When it comes to overall planning the defense of the country and everyting else.... Sefer is the God. And of course I could name COUNTLESS heroes in the defense of Saajevo and bosnia like Smajo Sikalo and Hujka and Talijan....but Sefer was the "brain" of it overall before anyone. Mehmed Alagic is is a g too. Seferovo Ratno Doba = good book about it. detailed. Hmmm....I agree with some points about Halilovic but I disagree as well. Maybe we should open up a discussion about the heros of the Bosnian armija state 1991/92?
|
|
|
Post by sweetnugs on Oct 28, 2008 18:41:37 GMT -5
Good idea Chris, go for it.
|
|
|
Post by raynon on Oct 28, 2008 22:00:50 GMT -5
[ No offense friend, but you don't seem to have the basic knowledge of what happend. Serbian army wasn't directly invovled in the Croatian or Bosnian War. . Maybe not the serbian army, but even in that doc. about the yugo breakup, you have the Croatian leader threatening a referendum to milosevic. You saw milosevic and his serbian military chief threatening the Croatian leader flat out with an attack on Croatia by the jna military. Later, the military chief showed hesitation to slobo about attacking Croatia bec. of his belief in yugoslavia idea. You can believe as you like. But Serbia not involved in the wars in Croatia and Bosnia is another fantasy Serbs like to keep feeding to themselves and anyone who listens. [ Bosniaks didn't follow anything, they were simply unlucky cuz most of the weapons fell in Serb regions. But there was plenty of people who prepared a defense long before the war broke out. People like Sefer Halilovic and the Patriocitc League. Without men like him Bosnia would've fell in a week if not less. But chetniks never took Sarajevo (although it was super close at one point), thanks to guys like him and countless others. You're not knowledgable enough to know the details but trust me when i tell you that considering the situation and insane disadvantages we had, we pulled off, a genuine miracle of warfare. Maybe, but Bosnia was just not organized or decisive enough to go all the way and take command of all your lands and keep it all under your leadership.
|
|
|
Post by givemebeer on Oct 28, 2008 22:03:09 GMT -5
I think we should make Hashim Thaçi the president of Bosnia and Serbia
|
|
|
Post by raynon on Oct 28, 2008 22:09:54 GMT -5
^ He just might be, one day soon. At least he will keep Bosnia without internal borders. And for sure he'd free Voj. and Sanxhak. And make Preshevo/Bun./Med part of Kosova. ;D
|
|
|
Post by givemebeer on Oct 28, 2008 22:11:47 GMT -5
^ He just might be, one day soon. At least he will keep Bosnia without internal borders. And for sure he'd free Voj. and Sanxhak. And make Preshevo/Bun./Med part of Kosova. ;D I like you, do you like me. I know I am a Slav, but I still like you, I want to have your children!
|
|
|
Post by bosna505 on Jan 19, 2010 16:12:18 GMT -5
in 1991 john wilks (expert on illyrians) said that bosnians are of illyrian decend. ten years after ALBANIAN accademics agreed with him: Kaplan Resuli, Fatos Lubonja, Ardian Qosi and Ardian Vebiu also other experts worlwide like: Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others. And then we got the genetic facts from Igenea, genograpic and familytreedna.
|
|