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Post by kapetan on Jul 9, 2008 18:29:21 GMT -5
Seeing himself as a Croat first and Bosnian second is fine. Black Americans are Black first, Italian Americans are Italian first etc. Or at least they equaly hold each. Race or ethnicity and culture is more personal then a nationality/citizenship but both are important. Who in their right mind would force someone today to ditch their religion or race or ethnic group or culture so they can be a "real" ________ (insert whatever country). Loyalty to your home land and country is all anyone should give really. When the next war breaks out I wonder if you will have the same belief about someone holding their ethnicity over their nationality as you do now. I don't think you understood me. If there's another war he can either support Bosnia as a whole as a Bosnian like some Serbs and Croats who fought in the Bosnian Army, or he can support Croats and their specific agenda. I wouldn't hold either against him really, that's how it works. I would suport Bosnia as a country and anyone else who does so, but obviosly I care about Bosniaks more then Serbs in my personal feelings. Black Americans could rebel tomorow it doesn't make them less American in my mind, they're just looking out for themselves first within their country. You gotta have unity and stability within your own before you can have it with others. But in end I think most people just follow whatever side or path supports their politcal goals, regardless of ethnicity. Same reason Croats and Bosniaks fought together so often.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jul 9, 2008 19:14:02 GMT -5
I don't think you understood me. If there's another war he can either support Bosnia as a whole as a Bosnian like some Serbs and Croats who fought in the Bosnian Army, or he can support Croats and their specific agenda. I wouldn't hold either against him really, that's how it works. I would suport Bosnia as a country and anyone else who does so, but obviosly I care about Bosniaks more then Serbs in my personal feelings. Black Americans could rebel tomorow it doesn't make them less American in my mind, they're just looking out for themselves first within their country. You gotta have unity and stability within your own before you can have it with others. But in end I think most people just follow whatever side or path supports their politcal goals, regardless of ethnicity. Same reason Croats and Bosniaks fought together so often. So you're belief is that the Serb Republic is an integral part of Bosnia because it was created by Bosnian Serbs?
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Post by zgembo on Jul 9, 2008 19:23:34 GMT -5
Loyalty to your home land and country is all anyone should give really. If people actually believed that, we wouldn't have seen the creation of 150 new countries in the 20th century. Loyalty is a two-way street. Citizens give loyalty, the country gives a common identity and loyalty in return. That's the recipe for a functional state. That's the reason Bosnia will never be one.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 9, 2008 19:28:04 GMT -5
I don't think you understood me. If there's another war he can either support Bosnia as a whole as a Bosnian like some Serbs and Croats who fought in the Bosnian Army, or he can support Croats and their specific agenda. I wouldn't hold either against him really, that's how it works. I would suport Bosnia as a country and anyone else who does so, but obviosly I care about Bosniaks more then Serbs in my personal feelings. Black Americans could rebel tomorow it doesn't make them less American in my mind, they're just looking out for themselves first within their country. You gotta have unity and stability within your own before you can have it with others. But in end I think most people just follow whatever side or path supports their politcal goals, regardless of ethnicity. Same reason Croats and Bosniaks fought together so often. So you're belief is that the Serb Republic is an integral part of Bosnia because it was created by Bosnian Serbs? My belif is that Serbs are an integral part of Bosnia just like the rest of us. But no I don't belive in these different countries within countries, it's just segregation. How the hell is anyone ever supposed to move on if they're afraid to even be around eachother and are isolated? Lets just drop the machismo for a second and admit that we'd all be much better off if we could solve our petty problems and get along. Everyone should be trying to reach out and shit not isolate further. That's why the rest of the world looks at us like animals and savages. I'm not saying lets all hug, I'm just saying in the big picture I'd rather we were all Bosnians (croats serbs and bosniaks all) and we got along enough to at least function as a country. cuz lets face it some serbs who are bosnian by birth for generations and generations..always been from bosnia...and STILL look at Serbia like it's their home or something. Their savior. serbs should WANT to be as Bosnian as anyone else. This Bosnia is pretty much along the same borders as the old medieval bosnia and we should try to make it work. not chop it up further.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 9, 2008 19:30:33 GMT -5
Loyalty to your home land and country is all anyone should give really. If people actually believed that, we wouldn't have seen the creation of 150 new countries in the 20th century. Loyalty is a two-way street. Citizens give loyalty, the country gives a common identity and loyalty in return. That's the recipe for a functional state. That's the reason Bosnia will never be one. Bosnia functioned for a long time just fine, even under the thumb of other empires people mostly got along. Not always but mostly they coexisted. And certintly in Yugoslavia there WAS a time at least for a while when almost everyone felt satisfied with our nation and etc. Not the radicals maybe but most normal people. yugoslavia wont and shouldn't ever happen again but a effort in the balkan for countries to work together can.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jul 9, 2008 20:14:56 GMT -5
^ Ma zaboli mene kita sta ti kazes/mislis sinko moj. Ja sam rodjen u Kaknju, i u Bosni sam narasto. Ja imam svako pravo da pricam o Bosni i Bosancima kako ja ocu, i kako zelim. Of course you can but that doesn't mean you have any credibility to judge how much respect someone else has for Bosnia. I'm not debating what respect he has, I am stating that you have no credibility to judge him since you see yourself as a Croat first and as a Bosnian second (if at all). By the by the by, Dodik was the one who agreed to the police reforms and other centralization reforms which is why I stated what I did. So are you, Yankee. Sad malo zavezi kad momci pricaju. Jer ti nemas ni 'p' od pojma kako je nama bilo, i kakva je sad situacija. I ajde sad malo pricaj maternji jezik. Bilo bih ti bolje da malo osvjezis neki kredibilitet kao Bosanski Srbin. Ejj, mamlaze jedan. Bezobrazan si kao tezak. Hold your tongue you uncultured lout. Ajde dobro, jesam u inostranstvu, ali nisam "Yankee". I ti nekad trebas zadrzati jezik, jer je previse dug. Mozda ga i cak treba odsjec.
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Post by Novus Dis on Jul 9, 2008 20:58:30 GMT -5
My belif is that Serbs are an integral part of Bosnia just like the rest of us. But no I don't belive in these different countries within countries, it's just segregation. How the hell is anyone ever supposed to move on if they're afraid to even be around eachother and are isolated? Lets just drop the machismo for a second and admit that we'd all be much better off if we could solve our petty problems and get along. Everyone should be trying to reach out and s**t not isolate further. That's why the rest of the world looks at us like animals and savages. I'm not saying lets all hug, I'm just saying in the big picture I'd rather we were all Bosnians (croats serbs and bosniaks all) and we got along enough to at least function as a country. cuz lets face it some serbs who are bosnian by birth for generations and generations..always been from bosnia...and STILL look at Serbia like it's their home or something. Their savior. serbs should WANT to be as Bosnian as anyone else. This Bosnia is pretty much along the same borders as the old medieval bosnia and we should try to make it work. not chop it up further. Bosnia started out as a Serb/Orthodox state and that is how I see my beloved homeland now. I hold no grudge towards anyone who hasn't wronged me, my family or Serbdom and I do believe that all Serbs in Bosnia, whether they are Orthodox, Muslim or Catholic, are my brothers unless they have betrayed Serbdom and cling to Istanbul/Vienna. Yes, the rule of Austria and Turkey changed the religious/social demographics and the dialect in most parts but when it comes down to it, almost everyone in Bosnia can trace their lineage to at least one Serb ancestor. Our blood unites us. I love my Serbian, Krajnik and Montenegrin brothers in the same manner and even though I believe that Bosanci/Crnogoraci should be economically/politically independent from Serbia (and also not be the vassals of foreign powers) I would encourage more dialogue and partnership between the various Serb groups. Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava! As for what the "rest of the world" thinks: they don’t have our best interests at hearts so why should we listen to them? Bosnia functioned for a long time just fine, even under the thumb of other empires people mostly got along. Not always but mostly they coexisted. And certintly in Yugoslavia there WAS a time at least for a while when almost everyone felt satisfied with our nation and etc. Not the radicals maybe but most normal people. yugoslavia wont and shouldn't ever happen again but a effort in the balkan for countries to work together can. We must not dwell on pre 1941 Yugoslavia lest we be lost in nostalgia. Ajde dobro, jesam u inostranstvu, ali nisam "Yankee". I ti nekad trebas zadrzati jezik, jer je previse dug. Mozda ga i cak treba odsjec. Cut out my tongue? How very Ustasha of you.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jul 9, 2008 23:00:00 GMT -5
^ WTF is with you and the ustase dude? Do you have some ustasa fetish?
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Post by zgembo on Jul 9, 2008 23:06:32 GMT -5
If people actually believed that, we wouldn't have seen the creation of 150 new countries in the 20th century. Loyalty is a two-way street. Citizens give loyalty, the country gives a common identity and loyalty in return. That's the recipe for a functional state. That's the reason Bosnia will never be one. Bosnia functioned for a long time just fine, even under the thumb of other empires people mostly got along. Not always but mostly they coexisted. And certintly in Yugoslavia there WAS a time at least for a while when almost everyone felt satisfied with our nation and etc. Not the radicals maybe but most normal people. yugoslavia wont and shouldn't ever happen again but a effort in the balkan for countries to work together can. It is impossible for you to understand, but Bosnia was never a nation and did not exist as one until 1992. The only history of statehood Bosnia has is from the last 15 years. People coexisted in Yugoslavia, they coexisted in the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires to a degree as well. I suppose they coexisted in the mideval ages too, but that was a different country (everybody was Christian). Modern Bosnia is prison that needs to be unlocked. If Yugoslavia, after 40 years of peaceful coexistence and prosperity, was broken, then certainly this mess of a country deserve to as well.
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CiKoLa
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Gotovina Heroj!
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Post by CiKoLa on Jul 9, 2008 23:13:24 GMT -5
hrmmm ... :rolleyes
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jul 9, 2008 23:40:11 GMT -5
^ It was peaceful. I didn't see any pretense of a civil war in Tito's time.
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Post by kapetan on Jul 9, 2008 23:56:03 GMT -5
Bosnia functioned for a long time just fine, even under the thumb of other empires people mostly got along. Not always but mostly they coexisted. And certintly in Yugoslavia there WAS a time at least for a while when almost everyone felt satisfied with our nation and etc. Not the radicals maybe but most normal people. yugoslavia wont and shouldn't ever happen again but a effort in the balkan for countries to work together can. It is impossible for you to understand, but Bosnia was never a nation and did not exist as one until 1992. The only history of statehood Bosnia has is from the last 15 years. People coexisted in Yugoslavia, they coexisted in the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires to a degree as well. I suppose they coexisted in the mideval ages too, but that was a different country (everybody was Christian). Modern Bosnia is prison that needs to be unlocked. If Yugoslavia, after 40 years of peaceful coexistence and prosperity, was broken, then certainly this mess of a country deserve to as well. You want out of prison? Great. Get the f**k out, nobody stopping you. Those who want to stay are welcome as Bosnians. It's impossible for you to understand (especialy after so long of beliving you're God's gift to the Balkans) but you're an idiot and you will never have control over either Bosnia or Bosniaks. Or Kosovo and Kosovars for that matter. Or any other place tyrannical people like you claim dominion over. But you tell me, since Bosnia was never anything....what was it? What was this fictional thing called Bosnia from lets say...1000AD and up. What was this capital called Sarajevo? Capital of what? What was this medieval kingdom Tvrtko and the Kotromanic dynasty ruled? What is that thing on all those old maps? Plz, educate me. It's "impossible" for me to know since my ancestorts have only been in Bosnia forever and had a unique culture and dress and customs and all called themselves bosnjaci.....but what do they know? In 1189 Ban Kulin issued the first written Bosnian document written in Bosnian Cyrillic, where he described Bosnia's statehood and referred to its people as Bosnians (Bošnjani).Ban Stjepan II Kotromaniæ used the word "Bosnian" to describe his language in a letter of his dated 1333.*laughs at you* Ban Kulin was an idiot. If only he had "mapko" to show him the truth rofl. Maybe when you realize Bosnia and Bosnians exists and Bosniaks are here in their homeland, and you make peace with that, maybe we can have some progress then
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Post by zgembo on Jul 10, 2008 1:20:41 GMT -5
When you realize Serbs only view Republika Srpska as their homeland and don't want anything to do with your Bosnia, maybe we can have some progress then. I am not denying you your identity. You can be an Eskimo for all I care. We are the ones essentially being denied our identity by being forced to share a country with you.
To reiterate, I am not denying your identity. I am just denying that Bosnia was a country before 1992. Therefore, having loyalty towards it or it having the capability of fostering peaceful co-existence is misplaced.
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Post by zgembo on Jul 10, 2008 1:29:58 GMT -5
You want out of prison? Great. Get the f**k out, nobody stopping you. Those who want to stay are welcome as Bosnians. It's impossible for you to understand (especialy after so long of beliving you're God's gift to the Balkans) but you're an idiot and you will never have control over either Bosnia or Bosniaks. Or Kosovo and Kosovars for that matter. Or any other place tyrannical people like you claim dominion over. How ironic is this? We are attempting to dominate, yet you are telling me that I have to accept your identity or leave. Tyranny, eh. We are not laying claim on all of Bosnia. We are laying claim on the part of Bosnia where we live: Republika Srpska!
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Post by kapetan on Jul 10, 2008 2:00:36 GMT -5
Yet you still don't show any proof of this moronic claim that Bosnia was nothing before 1992. Bosnia has 1000+ year history, who the f**k are you? Nobody. At least have the decency to explain yourself cuz what you're saying just goes against all reality. I can say the Sun is made of ice cream, it doesn't make it true rofl.
And I find it ironic you complain and whine about our dominance in Bosnia and how we want to keep you prisoner yet when I offer for all of us to be equal and all be Bosnians like your ancestors were (assuming they didn't move there recently from Serbia), you spit on me. So you acuse me of only being out for Bosniaks, but when I try to do anything else, you force me back into only being with Bosniaks.
You have every right to claim your home, go ahed. Who's stopping you. But your home is also part of Bosnia and it will stay part of it as it's always been.
And even MORE ironic you talking about non existent or artificial countries....yet you're calling RS your homeland.
Tell me...was it Bosnia or RS that's a new term and "entity".
We both know the answer. And don't forget you and yours aren't the only ones living in RS. You might be the majority there butt here is others.
So lets deal with reality and NOW. Cuz all that past s**t is irrelevant today really.
Bosnia is a country. We are the majority in it, we fought for it.
We're not going away. Bosnia is not going away. It's been here before you, it'll be here after you.
RS isn't splitting and never will succesfully.
If you hate being part of Bosnia and have forsaken any chance of ever living in it succesfully and making it a better place, and nothing short of independance will satisfy you, I suggest you take your monkey ass onto Serbia.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 10, 2008 2:07:02 GMT -5
By all means, by all witnesses, the Yugo wars were 100% artificial. Kapetan, the only way you can have RS abolished is inside a new Yugoslavia. The destruction of Yugoslavia created numerous and chronic problems and solved nothing. The recreation of Yugoslavia (about 30-70 yrs from now) will be the end of Balkan conflicts. Too bad we may not live until then. Grrrrr i am close to 40 already
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Post by kapetan on Jul 10, 2008 2:12:38 GMT -5
By all means, by all witnesses, the Yugo wars were 100% artificial. Kapetan, the only way you can have RS abolished is inside a new Yugoslavia. The destruction of Yugoslavia created numerous and chronic problems and solved nothing. The recreation of Yugoslavia (about 30-70 yrs from now) will be the end of Balkan conflicts. Too bad we may not live until then. Grrrrr i am close to 40 already I highly doubt we'll see a Yugoslavia again anytime soon my friend. For one, it would end just like the first time, and 2nd why would anyone want to be part of it? I'm inclined to think most of those problems existed long before the actualy destruction of Yugoslavia. If there was no problems there wouldnt've been a destruction.
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jul 10, 2008 3:07:30 GMT -5
^^^kapetan are you perhaps the male version of me? Can you read my mind? :-)
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Post by zgembo on Jul 10, 2008 3:24:13 GMT -5
Yet you still don't show any proof of this moronic claim that Bosnia was nothing before 1992. I said it was never a country before 1992 and that is true. Bosnia has 1000+ year history, who the f**k are you? Nobody. And it can have a 1000+ year future, I just don't see why Republika Srpska has to be a part of it. Is it because God said Bosnia must border on the Drina? Have your Bosnia all you want and put sparkles on it if you wish but if you had any sense of reason you wouldn't force people to be a part of it (and NEWSFLASH, telling people to pick up their shit and leave is not a solution, people living on a piece of land have the strongest claim on it... we don't live in medieval times, Ban Kulin isn't the ultimate ruler of all land, and even if he was he definitely would be disgusted by Muslims favourable to the Arabic script claiming his legacy considering he was Christian and wrote in Cyrillic). I highly doubt we'll see a Yugoslavia again anytime soon my friend. For one, it would end just like the first time, and 2nd why would anyone want to be part of it? Nobody wants to be part of Bosnia either, but that doesn't matter does it? If you hate being part of Bosnia and have forsaken any chance of ever living in it succesfully and making it a better place, and nothing short of independance will satisfy you, I suggest you take your monkey ass onto Serbia. Why don't you make me? Or, for that matter, why don't you make all of us Bosnian Serbs, because over a million of us feel exactly the same way as me (even more radically) as far disdain for Bosnia is concerned. Republika Srpska is de facto independent already. The level of autonomy is so high, the only thing that is left is international will at recognizing the reality on the ground. That will come sooner or later. Somebody will eventually realize that the bs required to keep this joke of a country together is simply not worth the trouble
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 10, 2008 3:31:02 GMT -5
" If there was no problems there wouldnt've been a destruction."
Those problems were MINIMAL in comparison to the problems ALL balkanians still have today: - FYROM vs GREECE - SRB VS Albs - FBiH vs RS - FBiH vs HR - HR vs SRB - MNE cannot be considered a country large enuf to have a critical mass/stature - FYROM cannot be considered a country large enuf to have a critical mass/stature - ALBS vs The Rest - Turkey benifiting from all these
Now the losers: Yugoslavs, Balkanians Short term winners : Leadership of Bulgaria, Romania, and Greece which show off as Balkan Gods or smth, and turkey who runs wild in FBiH and sandzak, trying to get time back in the ottoman empire era. Long term winners: USA/UK/Germany (aka EU), having an unstable and weak playground to play their games.
You do the maths
What are we talking about really? Consider the level of security and peace in the balkans from 45->91 and 92->now... Yugoslavia was the only guarantee of peace. the only peaceful pole of power. That was the target, and you ate the bait.
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