MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 24, 2008 17:05:46 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 25, 2008 11:06:57 GMT -5
Any alteration to the internal distribution of Bosnia is unrealistic really. Even after 4 years of war, an agreement couldn't be reached (the USA had to put a gun to everyone's head just to accept Dayton).
|
|
tyson
Amicus
Posts: 1,256
|
Post by tyson on Jan 25, 2008 23:44:26 GMT -5
^ you mean USA put a gun to the croats and bosniaks heads to sign dayton. serb stronghold of banja luka was going to fall in a couple days, and the serbs were already packing. the whole northern part of bosnia from brcko to banja luka was going to be liberated from serb control. once that fell, then serb controlled eastern bosnia and herzegovina wouldve fell not too long after. it was the americans who saved your asses from losing everything.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 26, 2008 2:38:39 GMT -5
It was also the Americans who put us in that situation (i.e. the Americans had put a gun to the head of Serbs by funding/arming/training Croats/Muslims and supporting them with bombing raids against the Serbs). Were it not for American involvement, 70% of Bosnia would still be Serbian. It was the Americans who saved your asses from 10 more Srebrenica's happening!
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Jan 26, 2008 16:36:41 GMT -5
Were it not for American involvement, 70% of Bosnia would still be Serbian. It was the Americans who saved your asses from 10 more Srebrenica's happening!
Totaly agree with Mapko, The Americans warned both the Croats and Bosniaks not to take advantage of the situation that the USA created for both of you. But in my opinion had Banja Luka fallen Serbia would have declared War on Croatia there was no way this would have been allowed to happen, and had both Croats and Bosniaks ignored the warnings Nato would have withdrawn there support like Milosevic did to the Kajina Serbs and maybe even bombed your asses in submission and yes I agree 70% of Bosnia would be Serbia now.
So Tyson, nemoj se kurciti.
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 28, 2008 13:56:16 GMT -5
I don't know if anything BUT Dayton or a Confederation/Federation will work. It's too divided.
Now to start commenting..
Totaly agree. Unless everyone got smart that is.
Had the war continued, it would have ended somewhere around 2001, that's with the US withdrawing the backing of Bosnia and Croatia. Had the war dragged on..
1. Serbs wouldn't hold that much of Bosnia, for sure. Serbia (FRY) withdrew support of Finances and Logistics by 1994.
2. If 10 more Srebrenica's, and Bosna would have Sanjak as well. The International Body of the UN (GA) would not accept that.
3. The internal borders would have been something along the lines of today, but Banja Luka would fall, if Gorazde did as well.
1. Serbia (FRY) would have never outright declared war on Croatia. That would have dragged in Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Czech Rep. and Poland in on the Croatian Side. By this time, Milosevic was alone. Russia had it's own problems.
2. NATO started supporting Croats/Bosniaks in 1994. The other years of the war, those two were alone, but offcourse Ukraine, Hungary, and Germany did some supplying of MiG-21's and APC's.
- - -
NOW, on a realistic note..
Tyson, that was provokative, and that is why these guys answered like they did.
A lesson on that war dude, is that had Tudjman agreed to "liberate" Banja Luka along with Izetbegovic, it would have been possible, but they were warned that it was at their own risk. Tudjman refused because there was, Quote: "No use for Croats to risk their lives" for that land. Tudjman didn't even want to enter.
Another thing you should note is that, the Fed.BiH Forces were already spread enough as it is, and the Croat Forces were already deployed along the Northern Border, but in Defence, in case another offencive by the VRS/JNA was to take place
In the situation, the BiH Army of the Bihac Pocket, and the HVO Homeguard were successful in taking the Grmec/South Una front, in the South after the Liberation of Knin/Krajina. The BiH armies did prepare for an offencive on Banja Luka, but due to the lack of US support, the offencive on Prijedor-Banja Luka, was never put in place.
If this offencive did take place, the war would have dragged on, and dragged on, and even if ground was gained, it would be lost, may it be there, or somewhere else.
Let's just be thankful the bloodshed stopped, before it got worse. As mapko stated, 10 more Srebrenicas could have happened, and just think about how much people that Creasefire saved, and how much deaths it prevented.
Vinjak, on the "Serbia declare war on Croatia" topic. You as well as I know that this kind of a war would explode into a Trans-Balkanian war, dragging all in on it. Albania itself would join in just to landgrab. That would be the biggest risk anybody could take, and whoever was the aggressor, they would lose.
BTW, boys please keep it clean and don't instigate, and provide facts to back your reasoning, if they are claims of a "what if" situation.
|
|
|
Post by terroreign on Jan 28, 2008 14:59:45 GMT -5
MiG - Ah, looks like the Croats agree with me on Bosnia
We can split Bosnia into 4 entities, Serbian, Bosniak, Croatian and Montenegrin
This would probably be the best solution, I hope Covic helps straighten this out.
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Jan 28, 2008 17:25:49 GMT -5
Vinjak, on the "Serbia declare war on Croatia" topic. You as well as I know that this kind of a war would explode into a Trans-Balkanian war,
Yep definatley, thats why I said in my post that this situation would never been allowed so both the BIH and Croat support would have been withdrawn and there could have been a risk of bombing.
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 28, 2008 18:16:57 GMT -5
At least you know what went down, and what the parameters/conditions of the war/offensives were.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 29, 2008 1:11:22 GMT -5
I don't see how Serbia declaring war on Croatia would drag others in (especially countries like Germany). The war was limited to Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia (through covert involvement). The only thing that would change is that Serbia would be more directly involved. The war talk wasn't coming from any other European country, I just can't see them jumping into a "Balkan squabble" because of some alliances or because of a land grab desire. These events weren't happening in the 19th century.
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 29, 2008 2:50:54 GMT -5
^ Have you read up on diplomatic relations of Croatia during the war? Or the "concequences" Germany had warned against FRY if it went in directly. Even Borisav Jovic stated that there was no hope in such a war. Declaring outright war against Croatia would have ment more land losses (might it not be in Serbia itself, but in BiH).
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 29, 2008 9:20:32 GMT -5
No, didn't hear about it. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 29, 2008 14:30:13 GMT -5
Here you go. Read up on it. But you should note that on the Diplomatic Relations list, where it gives off which nations recognized Croatia as an Independent Republic, the first 2 have always had diplomatic ties with Croatia. Hell, even world war two would be a reference for you. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_croatiawww.mfa.hr/MVP.asp?pcpid=1177en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence#1989-1995_The_World_Stood_ApartSupport grew, and because it did, if Serbia declared war directly, then it would have dragged in much of Central Europe into war against it. Meanwhile the USSR was breaking up, and Serbia had no support. The United Kingdom, of all nations in Europe, were the only ones that wanted to keep SFRJ as it was, but after the incidents in late 1991, and early 1992, and the JRViPVO downing of an EC Truce Observer Helicopter, the Serb dominated JNA and the FRJ had no chance of outright declaring war. They also would have come to aid as the Croat Army was very weak due to the weapons embargo put onto the Republics of SFRJ, at the request of Belgrade to "prevent an outbreak of violence". Politika je kurva, vidi gdje nas je dovela. Other things you can also see.. This is why Kosovo happened. So you cannot really argue that the US was on anyones side until early 1995.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 29, 2008 16:24:13 GMT -5
MIG, just because you recognize a country as independent doesn't mean you're obligated to intervene in a war if somebody attacks the country (or if war is declared on it officially, which just doesn't happen anymore).
You said: "Serbia (FRY) would have never outright declared war on Croatia. That would have dragged in Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Hungary, Czech Rep. and Poland in on the Croatian Side." I am pretty sure none of those would've entered the war to protect Croatia. The Czech Republic? I mean, c'mon!
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 29, 2008 16:54:07 GMT -5
No, you're very correct, but it also doesn't mean that a nation won't step in. Germany, Austria, and Hungary would have stepped in. Dude are you serious? The Czech Republic had a very capable military and air force at this time. MiG-29's and Su-22's at that time we're very capable aircraft. Czechoslovakia was a very powerful country, with a licence to mass produce any Soviet military vehicles. They were in a very good economic position, and were always diplomatically close to Croatia, and Slovenia (this is mainly due to AHE). They had a very nice armory of 450 T-72's at that time. They had a punch and a half to pack, and they were prepped and ready to fight the west in case of an all out Europe War. What makes you think that they couldn't defeat a JNA, which was in ruins (structurally, logistically, and resourcefully), and was a wee bit demoralized. Then in a war, you don't use 100% of your forces. You need some to quell any unsuspecting rebellions that would arise (In FRJ or Srbija's case, Kosovo). A war against Croatia itself (A formal one at that), would have been suicide for Beograd. Sure you may gain some ground, and maybe reach halfway into Slavonija, but in that amount of time, money would be collected, support would be won, and allies would come to aid. If they each dedicated 30% of their forces, the war would be lost. Hell if Germany alone did that, the war would have been over. If you put things into perspective, an attack on Croatia (which was suggested by Zivota Panic, and was turned down by Jovic in a heartbeat) would have ment game over for Beograd and the Milosevic Regime. Here is Zivota Panic's original tactic, but it never took off because it would have been Political, Strategic, and eventually Economic suicide (Due to Sanctions and Embargos).
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Jan 30, 2008 2:48:38 GMT -5
I'm not saying war on Croatia may have been a good idea. I am saying that counting on Germany, Austria, Hungary or any other European country to enter the war in support of Croatia is completely unrealistic. I mean, it has no basis in reality and you've done nothing to prove that it does.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 30, 2008 7:38:37 GMT -5
Marko, none heres wants to prove anything. All they do is retrospective wishing.
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 30, 2008 8:56:38 GMT -5
How so? I've provided you with the proof that at least Germany was willing to go to war, and following Germany would have been Austria and Slovenia. That's kind of like saying, if Hungary attacked Serbia, then Russia would back Serbia. Understand?
Dude, I'm sure you watched the documentary called "Death of Yugoslavia". You even hear, out of Borisav Jovic's mouth, that a direct attack against Croatia was never going to happen. He had many reasons for it, and he himself stated that it would drag the "Newely Democratic and Pro-Western" Central Europe to war.
Pyrros:
Dude, can I ask you a question? Who invited you to this conversation? You usually instigate, and provide some of the most idiotic statements on the forum. Don't address me with ANYTHING unless you have sources and FACTS to prove things. That statement has nothing to do with anything, so before things get ugly between you and I, I'll kindly ask you to stay quiet on this topic, as obviously, you have shown NO knowledge in the field of the Yugoslav Wars.
Thanks in advance, and I'll appreciate it.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jan 30, 2008 9:25:31 GMT -5
Mig the Avenger had far less knowledge than me, yet that didnt prevent you from trying to protect him when i advised him to stay away of the Serb forum, (since he had shown blind hatred and nothing more). Now you do the exact same thing with me. If want private conversation, then this place isnt the right one. Oh, that threat type of thing about things getting ugly, was pretty much ugly by itself.
I laugh my a$$ off, when i remember how low you had to get and the stupid things you said in our last marathon "debate" in order to prove to your self that you dealt with me. You are a joke of a human.
|
|
MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
|
Post by MiG on Jan 30, 2008 12:31:50 GMT -5
1. I don't even remember you telling him something like that, in a nice fashion anyway (Like I told you). 2. I never protected him. I even argued with him that his Anti-Serb view wasn't a very good one, and warned him to change, and that is why he "fixed" himself in the BiH Subforum. Maybe it would be a good thing. Dude you need to chill out, cool off, and then back off. If you don't have anything constructive to say on the topic, you should know right there that you have the right to shut up. If want private conversation, then this place isnt the right one. Oh, that threat type of thing about things getting ugly, was pretty much ugly by itself. Dude, what the hell are you talking about? You didn't know sh it about the topic, and then you use phrases such as the one I quoted below, and normally a person might get a little pissed. But what really bothered me is your very ignorance. You are too ignorant to look past your nose, and see the reality, and the facts in certain cases. Dude, I suggest that you get off your high horse and prove yourself useful by giving constructive opinion and facts, not some blabbering about daydreaming. The only one to daydream here is you. That is what makes you the joke, not me Pyrros. BTW, who the hell was talking about Avenger and your views towards his opinion? We were talking about a possible military operation to invade Croatia. But I'm sure that you and the others realize how you debate. You turn it into something 3rd to the subject, and swear, insult, instead of debating. You make no sense of the thread, and then you make it into one garbage, piece of sh it thread, that I don't even feel like reading anymore, and that discourages others from doing so as well. Give contructive debate, or make like a banana and split.
|
|