|
Post by kapetan on Sept 29, 2008 19:27:59 GMT -5
Not trying to start a argument about this or that or blame anyone. Just saying this is a powerful pic. Bosnian government troops reach out towards a Muslim woman who sits mute with shock by a roadside in Travnik, central Bosnia, in the summer of 1993. The woman was part of a group of Muslim detainees held captive by Bosnian Serbs. They had been deported across the frontline to the government- controlled area only minutes before this photograph was taken. Detainees who were with her said she had been raped.
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Sept 29, 2008 20:19:01 GMT -5
Thats the thing with pictures you can never know what is happening.........I could read into this photo also it is showing me a woman so traumatised that she is frozen yet she has a cigarete in her hand so a minute or so ago she was clear and lucid enough to light a ciggarette and then a camera apears and its Trauma.
Sorry if I seem insensative but many propaganda photos have been used against the Bosnian Serbs.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Sept 30, 2008 0:24:06 GMT -5
It IS a sad pic.
Men will be men, especially in war where they can use weapons and not fear the law. People say that "u ratu olos ispliva na povrsinu" for a reason. The only thing that irks me is the propaganda that accompanied cases of rape in the former Yugoslavia (i.e. Serbs raping as part of some military/racists genetic strategy).
|
|
|
Post by malsor4life on Sept 30, 2008 0:52:11 GMT -5
It IS a sad pic. Men will be men, especially in war where they can use weapons and not fear the law. People say that "u ratu olos ispliva na povrsinu" for a reason. The only thing that irks me is the propaganda that accompanied cases of rape in the former Yugoslavia (i.e. Serbs raping as part of some military/racists genetic strategy). Men will be men ? Thats insane. I dont know where u were brought up, but rape is the ultimate act of cowardness-----nothing 'manly' about that whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Sept 30, 2008 1:23:47 GMT -5
Rape as much a part of war as killing. Unfortunately. It is induced by many factors.The dehumanization of the enemy leads to the perception that it is somehow justifiable so long as it is them, the perception of the enemy as some sort of collection, he/she and everyone like him is responsible for fact that my comrade died, the fact that war produces confusion and lawless and the desire for man to achieve gratification through forceful means. Its not just sex, its the entire act of rape that soldiers, especially in hard conflicts, desire. It eases their built up frutration in a most unfortunate way.
Not only that, but in wars that were open to paramilitary units, you often get the biggest scumbags out there on the frontline.
The first to hide when war breaks out should be sisters, daughters, mothers and wives, because should you village/city fall... they will be the ones to suffer more then you might.
|
|
|
Post by fannoli on Sept 30, 2008 1:27:37 GMT -5
^ Rape is a tool of war. Basically what they are saying in simple words: "We burned your houses, we took your land, and finally we took your women."
In tribal warfare it is suppose to be the final defeat and embarrasment. In modern wars the same thing with mass rape.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Sept 30, 2008 2:24:46 GMT -5
It IS a sad pic. Men will be men, especially in war where they can use weapons and not fear the law. People say that "u ratu olos ispliva na povrsinu" for a reason. The only thing that irks me is the propaganda that accompanied cases of rape in the former Yugoslavia (i.e. Serbs raping as part of some military/racists genetic strategy). Men will be men ? Thats insane. I dont know where u were brought up, but rape is the ultimate act of cowardness-----nothing 'manly' about that whatsoever. You obviously did not understand me... I am not justifying rape by any means.... just saying that men do it, especially in war time. And of course it is cowardly, they do it pointing a gun to a womans head fearing no repercussions.
|
|
|
Post by kapetan on Sept 30, 2008 2:27:30 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that anyone, from any of our people be it serbian, albanian, croat or bosnian, who was raping and these sorts of things, is the lowest of f**kin' scum.
|
|
|
Post by malsor4life on Sept 30, 2008 4:30:06 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that anyone, from any of our people be it serbian, albanian, croat or bosnian, who was raping and these sorts of things, is the lowest of f**kin' scum. Agree completely. Anyone who does that, regardless of who he is or where he's from, has zero honor and deserves nothing less then a bullet between his eyes. And even that wouldnt be justice enough
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 6:40:34 GMT -5
Rape as much a part of war as killing. Unfortunately. It is induced by many factors.The dehumanization of the enemy leads to the perception that it is somehow justifiable so long as it is them, the perception of the enemy as some sort of collection, he/she and everyone like him is responsible for fact that my comrade died, the fact that war produces confusion and lawless and the desire for man to achieve gratification through forceful means. Its not just sex, its the entire act of rape that soldiers, especially in hard conflicts, desire. It eases their built up frutration in a most unfortunate way. Not only that, but in wars that were open to paramilitary units, you often get the biggest scumbags out there on the frontline. The first to hide when war breaks out should be sisters, daughters, mothers and wives, because should you village/city fall... they will be the ones to suffer more then you might. Good points that I agree with, although some of the aspects of rape in the war in Bosnia was different than other war related rape. 1) comments made to the victims that they were trying to make serbian babies 2) holding onto woman until it was too late to abort the pregnancy 3) comments made by bosnian serb officials during the war that bosniak woman were lucky to be raped by serbs 4) the lack of rule of law only applied to non serbs in serb controlled area. Notice that cetniks were running around raping serbian woman because they knew that this was not allowable or acceptable. That Croat/Bosniak woman were fair game because of the dehumanization of the "others" by the genocidal facist wartime cetnik creature 5) Rape was used as a tool to prevent the future mixing of Bosniak/Serbian communities. There are numerous cases of VRS soldiers who claimed they were forced to rape. It's a sad legacy of the Serbian wartime leadership and the lack of courage they showed during the war. The whole thing was really disgusting as f*ck.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 6:41:43 GMT -5
Also the Serbian government encourage weekend warriors who came from Serbia on the weekends to rape, loot and pillage like it was some sort of evil safari.
|
|
|
Post by bosanskinovi on Sept 30, 2008 13:08:11 GMT -5
I dont even know what to say when I see pictures like this...there are no words.
ps, Michael Sells explains the background or "justification" for the rapes by Bosnian Serb forces pretty good in "The Bridge Betrayed" if anyone has read it.
|
|
|
Post by Croatian Vanguard on Sept 30, 2008 16:23:18 GMT -5
Its likely those soldiers in the picture are anything but heroes and responsible for a bit of violence an thugish behavior of their own. I feel empathy and sympathy towards the woman if what happened is true. However, it is difficult to see through the propaganda of pictures promoting 'military honor.'
It seems to me the photograph is to evoke feelings of emotion and anger towards the victimizers of the woman. Those feelings are then entrusted within the 'good' soldiers to carry out revenge and protect women just like this. Its a tool but sad nonetheless.
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Sept 30, 2008 17:18:54 GMT -5
1) comments made to the victims that they were trying to make serbian babies Serbian rape victims heard the same things from Muslims who raped them. Such a comment is meant to provoke and demean, it does not suggest some overall strategic plan. 2) holding onto woman until it was too late to abort the pregnancy The point at which it is too late to abort is also the same point after the expanded belly becomes visible. It is more logical to assume they did not want to rape visibly pregnant women as opposed to intentionally holding them so an abortion cannot be performed. 3) comments made by bosnian serb officials during the war that bosniak woman were lucky to be raped by serbs Just because one idiot says something provocative too much credence should not be put towards it. Seselj also said in 1999 that Albanian women are too ugly to be raped. Idiots are idiots, they will make provocative statements when they are oblivious to reality and suffering. 4) the lack of rule of law only applied to non serbs in serb controlled area. Notice that cetniks were running around raping serbian woman because they knew that this was not allowable or acceptable. That Croat/Bosniak woman were fair game because of the dehumanization of the "others" by the genocidal facist wartime cetnik creature No need to demonize Serbs even further with those last 5 words, but otherwise the statement is largely true. In a civil war the enemy ethnicity does not receive the same protection of the law. This was as true for Serbian women in Sarajevo (two Serbian female friends of my parents were raped by Muslims in Sarajevo) as it was for Muslim women in Eastern Bosnia. 5) Rape was used as a tool to prevent the future mixing of Bosniak/Serbian communities. There are numerous cases of VRS soldiers who claimed they were forced to rape. Pure and utter bulls**t. If anyone was pressured into raping, it was the sort of peer pressure motivated by perpetrators not wanting anyone around to be self-righteous or holding some moral superiority. You pressure others to participate so you don't feel as bad about doing it, this is evident in gang rape cases that happen around the world. There is no proof that rape was used to prevent the future mixing of Muslims and Serbs. That doesn't even make sense. It is shameless and unsubstantiated war-time propaganda, much like all of your other points.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 18:02:11 GMT -5
1) comments made to the victims that they were trying to make serbian babies Serbian rape victims heard the same things from Muslims who raped them. Such a comment is meant to provoke and demean, it does not suggest some overall strategic plan. The point at which it is too late to abort is also the same point after the expanded belly becomes visible. It is more logical to assume they did not want to rape visibly pregnant women as opposed to intentionally holding them so an abortion cannot be performed. Just because one idiot says something provocative too much credence should not be put towards it. Seselj also said in 1999 that Albanian women are too ugly to be raped. Idiots are idiots, they will make provocative statements when they are oblivious to reality and suffering. No need to demonize Serbs even further with those last 5 words, but otherwise the statement is largely true. In a civil war the enemy ethnicity does not receive the same protection of the law. This was as true for Serbian women in Sarajevo (two Serbian female friends of my parents were raped by Muslims in Sarajevo) as it was for Muslim women in Eastern Bosnia. 5) Rape was used as a tool to prevent the future mixing of Bosniak/Serbian communities. There are numerous cases of VRS soldiers who claimed they were forced to rape. Pure and utter bulls**t. If anyone was pressured into raping, it was the sort of peer pressure motivated by perpetrators not wanting anyone around to be self-righteous or holding some moral superiority. You pressure others to participate so you don't feel as bad about doing it, this is evident in gang rape cases that happen around the world. There is no proof that rape was used to prevent the future mixing of Muslims and Serbs. That doesn't even make sense. It is shameless and unsubstantiated war-time propaganda, much like all of your other points. You generally agreed with me and my points and then in the last instance dismiss everything. If you take each individual point I made out of context you can claim these crimes happened in a vacume of unrelated incidents. Taken as a whole is clearly demonstrates rape used as a tool during the war to achieve certain results. Sorry about your friends raped in Sarajevo but rape happens and to claim it was because they were serbs doesn't fit with what happened in Sarajevo during the war. My friends ex girlfriend was held by cetniks in Grbavica during the war and she was repeatedly raped along with her mother. Everyone in rs and Sarajevo knew it was happening as well as the person doing it. Nothing was ever done (until now). Please spare me the equating of guilt, when you try to justify crimes committed against others by the cetniks you end up spitting on the Serbian victims as well. Your making Serbian victims the propaganda for allowing of crimes committed against others justifiable, is revolting.
|
|
|
Post by vinjak on Sept 30, 2008 18:26:27 GMT -5
Unfortunatley no matter how vial Rape is and will be a product of War.
Regualr Army units need to be kept in line by there commanders and generaly are (not always)
Its the ones who come after, Parramiltarys gangs of thugs etc they thrive/take advantage on the lawlessness of war unfortunatley it is what happens all over the world where there is conflict. In order to get people to fight propaganda is an important weapon a dehuminisation of the enemy is the way a normal person who could not even fathom killing another human is made into a combatant this type of brainwashing has consequences and we see these consequenses played out if not on the battlefield during a war (because of strong commanders) then certainly in civilian life after a war. Unfortunatley though once a war is over and a person is expected to once again be a law abiding civilian there is no effort or mechanism to reverse the original brainwashing/desensitiving.
Now in society we see many crimes of rape murder etc in peactime just imagine what they would do if they suddenly found themselves in a war .
|
|
|
Post by zgembo on Sept 30, 2008 22:44:02 GMT -5
Serbian rape victims heard the same things from Muslims who raped them. Such a comment is meant to provoke and demean, it does not suggest some overall strategic plan. The point at which it is too late to abort is also the same point after the expanded belly becomes visible. It is more logical to assume they did not want to rape visibly pregnant women as opposed to intentionally holding them so an abortion cannot be performed. Just because one idiot says something provocative too much credence should not be put towards it. Seselj also said in 1999 that Albanian women are too ugly to be raped. Idiots are idiots, they will make provocative statements when they are oblivious to reality and suffering. No need to demonize Serbs even further with those last 5 words, but otherwise the statement is largely true. In a civil war the enemy ethnicity does not receive the same protection of the law. This was as true for Serbian women in Sarajevo (two Serbian female friends of my parents were raped by Muslims in Sarajevo) as it was for Muslim women in Eastern Bosnia. Pure and utter bulls**t. If anyone was pressured into raping, it was the sort of peer pressure motivated by perpetrators not wanting anyone around to be self-righteous or holding some moral superiority. You pressure others to participate so you don't feel as bad about doing it, this is evident in gang rape cases that happen around the world. There is no proof that rape was used to prevent the future mixing of Muslims and Serbs. That doesn't even make sense. It is shameless and unsubstantiated war-time propaganda, much like all of your other points. You generally agreed with me and my points and then in the last instance dismiss everything. If you take each individual point I made out of context you can claim these crimes happened in a vacume of unrelated incidents. Taken as a whole is clearly demonstrates rape used as a tool during the war to achieve certain results. Sorry about your friends raped in Sarajevo but rape happens and to claim it was because they were serbs doesn't fit with what happened in Sarajevo during the war. My friends ex girlfriend was held by cetniks in Grbavica during the war and she was repeatedly raped along with her mother. Everyone in rs and Sarajevo knew it was happening as well as the person doing it. Nothing was ever done (until now). Please spare me the equating of guilt, when you try to justify crimes committed against others by the cetniks you end up spitting on the Serbian victims as well. Your making Serbian victims the propaganda for allowing of crimes committed against others justifiable, is revolting. I am not equating the guilt. I don't know the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if more Bosnian Muslim women were raped than Serbian women. In that sense Bosnian Muslims women were the bigger victims. What I don't agree with, and what all your points were alluding to, is that rape was part of some organized strategy by the Bosnian Serb leadership, motivated by some outlandish racist and fascist beliefs. That is clear propaganda. Muslims were the least well armed, they were on the defensive mostly and they were consequently the biggest victims. To take it a step further and suggest a plan was drawn up Bosnian Serb leadership to commit mass-scale rapes is really just using the tragedy of what happened to further political goals, propaganda used to demonize Serbs and portray Bosnian Muslims as the ultimate victims. And those two Serbian women were raped because they were Serbs. There was a rape camp (building) in the centre of Sarajevo pointed out to me when I was last there. My father saw one of the women in Montenegro after the war and she told him what happened. They were raped because they were Serbs and powerless/dehumanized in Sarajevo. I'm not saying cases were as widespread as what happened in eastern Bosnia or that every Serbian women that stayed in Sarajevo faced the same fate. I am saying that it happened to them because they were Serbs. You can remain oblivious to that and deny it. That's your prerogative.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 23:14:50 GMT -5
Unfortunatley no matter how vial Rape is and will be a product of War. Regualr Army units need to be kept in line by there commanders and generaly are (not always) Its the ones who come after, Parramiltarys gangs of thugs etc they thrive/take advantage on the lawlessness of war unfortunatley it is what happens all over the world where there is conflict. In order to get people to fight propaganda is an important weapon a dehuminisation of the enemy is the way a normal person who could not even fathom killing another human is made into a combatant this type of brainwashing has consequences and we see these consequenses played out if not on the battlefield during a war (because of strong commanders) then certainly in civilian life after a war. Unfortunatley though once a war is over and a person is expected to once again be a law abiding civilian there is no effort or mechanism to reverse the original brainwashing/desensitiving. Now in society we see many crimes of rape murder etc in peactime just imagine what they would do if they suddenly found themselves in a war . I agree 100% although professional armies don't act like an evil horde unleashed on a civillian population. Crimes tend to be isolated incidents that happen in regular society by disturbed individuals taking advantage of certain situations. Thats different than tacit approval of rape as a warcrime or open hostility dehumanizing an enemy to a level were crimes against individuals are claimed to not be crimes at all. Or commanders telling there soldiers that these woman are the spoils of war or that they are free to do as they please loot, rape, kill, pillage, plunder, burn and torture.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 23:18:33 GMT -5
Situations like Foca, Grbavica and other places were it was open knowledge woman were kept in large groups for the pleasure and torture of soldiers and civilian civila authorities alike.
Also even within the UN there are individuals who join because of the protection it offers those within the organization. Whever the UN sets up shop human and child sexual traficing follows to fill the desires of these sick individuals like international catholic priests use the church as a umbrella to hide there sick desires.
|
|
|
Post by theblackswans on Sept 30, 2008 23:23:44 GMT -5
You generally agreed with me and my points and then in the last instance dismiss everything. If you take each individual point I made out of context you can claim these crimes happened in a vacume of unrelated incidents. Taken as a whole is clearly demonstrates rape used as a tool during the war to achieve certain results. Sorry about your friends raped in Sarajevo but rape happens and to claim it was because they were serbs doesn't fit with what happened in Sarajevo during the war. My friends ex girlfriend was held by cetniks in Grbavica during the war and she was repeatedly raped along with her mother. Everyone in rs and Sarajevo knew it was happening as well as the person doing it. Nothing was ever done (until now). Please spare me the equating of guilt, when you try to justify crimes committed against others by the cetniks you end up spitting on the Serbian victims as well. Your making Serbian victims the propaganda for allowing of crimes committed against others justifiable, is revolting. I am not equating the guilt. I don't know the figures, but I wouldn't be surprised if more Bosnian Muslim women were raped than Serbian women. In that sense Bosnian Muslims women were the bigger victims. What I don't agree with, and what all your points were alluding to, is that rape was part of some organized strategy by the Bosnian Serb leadership, motivated by some outlandish racist and fascist beliefs. That is clear propaganda. Muslims were the least well armed, they were on the defensive mostly and they were consequently the biggest victims. To take it a step further and suggest a plan was drawn up Bosnian Serb leadership to commit mass-scale rapes is really just using the tragedy of what happened to further political goals, propaganda used to demonize Serbs and portray Bosnian Muslims as the ultimate victims. And those two Serbian women were raped because they were Serbs. There was a rape camp (building) in the centre of Sarajevo pointed out to me when I was last there. My father saw one of the women in Montenegro after the war and she told him what happened. They were raped because they were Serbs and powerless/dehumanized in Sarajevo. I'm not saying cases were as widespread as what happened in eastern Bosnia or that every Serbian women that stayed in Sarajevo faced the same fate. I am saying that it happened to them because they were Serbs. You can remain oblivious to that and deny it. That's your prerogative. Most Serbs in late 1991 early 1992 didn't follow the dehumanizing of non Serbs in Bosnia. Many in small communities and the large cities believed that everyone could still live together and get along. It wasn't until an organized, sustained and overwhelming campaign of racist, facist propaganda on the part of Serbian television and media as well as some local orchastrated incidents ( by all sides) that led to the breakdown in the phsychy of Serbs and others in Bosnia which allowed the crimes that followed, as well as a large influx of people from outside of BiH (cetniks from Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro) who were willing to destroy the bonds that had existed in these communities for centuries.
|
|