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Post by vinjak on Aug 8, 2008 19:24:17 GMT -5
Bosnia: Muslims dominate capital, claims Croatian MP, AKIAugust 8, 2008 on 3:06 am | In News in English, Republic of Srpska | Sarajevo, 6 August (AKI) – The Bosnian capital of Sarajevo, once a symbol of ethnic diversity, has become an entirely Muslim city, a Croat deputy in the Bosnian Parliament, Branko Zrno, said on Wednesday.
“Sarajevo definitely isn’t a multi-ethnic city, but the city of one group, the Bosniacs (Muslims), ” Zrno told local media.
He pointed out that Serbs and Croats in Sarajevo have no institutional protection, and continue to leave the capital.
Zrno echoed allegations from Bosnian Serb leaders, including Serb entity Prime Minister Milorad Dodik, that non-Muslims in Sarajevo suffered discrimination and were denied their rights.
Zrno said that the Croatian presence in the city had been halved and that neither Croats nor Serbs held any important posts in local government.
Serbs claim that in the city of 400,000 only 7,000 Serbs have remained, compared to 160,000 before the 1992-1995 civil war.
The Serb claims have been supported by the Muslim President of the Bosnian Helsinki committee for human rights, Srdjan Dizdarevic, who said in a recent interview that Sarajevo had become a “monoethnic” city.
“Over 90 percent of Sarajevo inhabitants belong to only one group, the Bosniacs,” Dizdarevic told weekly Fokus.
“Ethnic cleansing in this city has, unfortunately, been successfully completed. If the will exists to reconstruct Bosnia on multiethnic principles, one should start with Sarajevo,” he concluded.
But as ethnic tensions deepened, the Muslim chairman of a three-man rotating state presidency, Haris Silajdzic, on Wednesday launched a fresh attack on the Serb entity.
Silajdzic repeated earlier claims that the Serb entity is a “symbol of genocide” allegedly perpetrated by its first president, Radovan Karadzic.
Karadzic is currently in detention and the Hague-based war crimes tribunal last week charged him with genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.
“Karadzic has been arrested, but his project continues to live,” Silajdzic said. Karadzic was arrested in Belgrade two weeks ago and extradited to The Hague last week.
“The international community is obliged to remove consequences of the genocide,” Silajdzic added, referring to the Serb entity.
The statement prompted the top international representative in Bosnia, Slovak diplomat Miroslav Lajcak, to state that it is Karadzic who faces prosecution in The Hague, not the Serb entity.
“The Serb entity is not a creation of Karadzic’s, but of the Dayton peace accord,” Lajcak said.
The Dayton accord, signed in November 1995, ended Bosnia’s civil war and divided the country into two entities with most of the powers of a state: the Serb entity and a Muslim-Croat federation.
Bosnia’s majority Muslim leaders have continued to call the Serb entity a “genocidal creature” that should be abolished - a move strongly opposed by Serbs.
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Post by sweetnugs on Aug 8, 2008 19:38:59 GMT -5
Whatever dude. What do Croats expect? They're low in numbers and they expect the same treatment as Serbs and Bosniaks? How is this Bosniaks fault? No one is driving Croats out of the country, and also, this is bulls**t beyond belief. The president of the Federation is a Croat lady, the economy is dominated by Croats all over.
This is pricesly why they can't gettheir own entity, they are simply too low in numbers! Whats this going to be? From Mostar to Livno? We all know Serbs won't give up Posavina so the whole idea behind the Croat entity is absurd and useless for the entire state of BiH. If they stayed and worked within BiH then it would look better but instead they all want to live and work in Croatia. Thats putting a blame on Bosniaks for something they themselves did! Stay in BiH and make s**t happen there, don't move to Croatia and wonder why there are less and less Croats in Sarajevo or BiH.
No one is putting a gun to their heads and saying leave, they're choosing to do that alone.
What about the fact that Banjaluka is ethnically clensed from Bosniaks and Croats? How does Dodik get off complaining about Sarajevo where there are still over 100,000 Serbs including the Pale area. The same cannot be said about Bosniaks and Croats in Banjaluka.
What about Bijeljinja? Once again a place where its dominated by Serbs with no sight of Bosniaks or Croats. How about Mostar or Stoc?
Everyone loves to put a blame on the Sarajevo but never mention the status of the cities previously mentioned.
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Post by tito on Aug 9, 2008 1:30:10 GMT -5
Serbs claim that in the city of 400,000 only 7,000 Serbs have remained, compared to 160,000 before the 1992-1995 "civil war" The municipalies of Istocno Sarajevo(RS) are:Istoèna Ilidža (pop. 16754) Istoèno Novo Sarajevo (aka Lukavica) (pop. 9129) Istoèni Stari Grad (pop. 3185) Pale (pop. 25000) Sokolac (pop. 15500) Trnovo (pop. 1642)
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Post by meltdown711 on Aug 9, 2008 1:57:18 GMT -5
Yea well thats to be expected, how many Bosnian Muslims live in RS today as compared to 1991?
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Post by kapetan on Aug 9, 2008 1:57:32 GMT -5
Rofl no s**t, Muslims have dominated the city of Sarajevo since the Ottoman Period.
In 1991 before the war, Croats weren't anywhere near the majority in any part of Sarajevo. Not a single one. In fact the part in which they were the biggest was in Centar, with 5.59%.
Cuz of the way the Ottoman system worked, Muslims occupied most of the major cities, especialy Sarajevo (along with the Jews), while Christians lived in rural areas and were farmers.
Again in 1991, most cities themsevles were Bosniak majority and Serbs were in the surrounding areas in the municipality. Not all though.
"seljaci sa planina" as some would put it lolz
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Post by fukara on Aug 9, 2008 6:47:01 GMT -5
just look at the number of non-bosniacs in school classes in sarajevo and you will see that this city is no longer the true capital, sad.. I hope our capital becomes how it was before the war...
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Boško Buha
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Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
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Post by Boško Buha on Aug 9, 2008 8:26:16 GMT -5
Rofl no s**t, Muslims have dominated the city of Sarajevo since the Ottoman Period. up to WW1 and until now. Serbs were the majority before those years, but they found thier way
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Aug 9, 2008 12:36:37 GMT -5
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Post by kapetan on Aug 9, 2008 15:20:12 GMT -5
Lmao oh so now we're combining ALL christians as one? Not Serbs and Croats seperatly? Ok if you do that you have a majority. But in reality Serbs were majority in the municipality like I said. They were rarely the majority in any real urban area. On the very page you just linked me to you should've noticed this. The same year the City of Sarajevo had 78,173 inhabitants:Sunni Muslims 29,649 (37.9%) Roman Catholic Christians 21,373 (27.3%) Serbian Orthodox Christians 18,630 (23.8%) More then Serbs, more then Croats. But sure if you combin you both you beat Muslims by 13% lol. Also this. Heavy industrialization and increased importance in regional affairs during the time of Yugoslavia resulted in a rapid increase however, and by the time of the 1984 Olympics the greater Sarajevo area had more than 500,000 residents. Although exact ethnic distribution is unknown, of these 500,000, 49% were Muslim, 30% Orthodox Christians, and 7% Catholics, indicating relatively corresponding percentages of Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats.Like i said the way the ottoman system was Muslims held the power, christians were mostly rural and farmers. So basicly, even these statistics are after the Ottoman empire when most likely more Christians moved into the city. lol Everything that's significant in Sarajevo was built by Muslims. It was at its peak the most important Ottoman city in the Balkans next to Isanbul. It had a population of over 80,000 when Belgrade had 12,000. Islam is the biggest influence on the city but you can't exclue the Cathedral and Orthodox church and jewish temple and synogoue etc. Nobody's stopping anyone fro living there, you just don't want to. probly for the same reason we don't want to live in towns that are now 95% Serb. You got me on the other thing it's not 5% it,s 10%. I looked at the "other" insted of "Croats" on the page you just linked. My bad. So the biggest for Croats was 10% in Illidza.
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Post by zgembo on Aug 9, 2008 15:58:16 GMT -5
24SI - Naša stranka smatra kako su uz Sarajevo i drugi gradovi u BiH postali monoetnični ili podijeljeni zbog nacionalističkih vlasti, navodeći da su nacionalističke politike nakon potpisivanja Daytonskog sporazuma nastavile razvijati politike rata u miru.
Povodom izjave predsjednika Helsinškog komiteta BiH Srđana Dizdarevića da je Sarajevo postalo dominantno muslimanski grad, Naša stranka u današnjem saopštenju ocjenjuje da je to rezultat vladajućih nacionalističkih politika u BiH.
"Sarajevo, kao glavni grad države, žrtva je upravo takvih politika. Ono nije samo dominatno muslimanski, već i grad koji je deurbaniziran, klerikaliziran, a sve više gubi svoj multietnički i multikulturni duh", stav je ove stranke.
Pored Sarajeva i drugi gradovi su postali dominantno monoetnički ili podijeljeni gradovi. Takav je slučaj i sa Banjalukom, Bijeljinom, podijeljenim Mostarom, Stocem, ali i svim drugim gradovima u BiH, navodi Naša stranka.
Njena je ocjena da su nacionalističke politike pretvorile konstitutivne bh. nacije u nacionalne manjine, pri čemu Hrvati i Bošnjaci trpe potpunu političku marginalizaciju u RS, a takav slučaj je i sa Srbima na prostoru FBiH.
Istodobno, Hrvati i Bošnjaci u FBiH nastoje na teritorijima gdje su jedni dominatni u odnosu na druge ostvariti političku dominaciju.
Naša stranka tvrdi kako se Sarajevo, ali svi drugi gradovi u BiH, moraju iznova urbanizirati, vratiti svoj multietnički i multikulturni sadržaj i osloboditi se iz kandži primitivne vlasti pod kojom postupno umiru.
(fena.ba)
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Zvone
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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Aug 9, 2008 18:08:36 GMT -5
Sorry, I thought Bosniak was the ethnic designation. By the Ottoman Empire? No. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_in_the_Habsburg_EmpireIt's a fact that the Ottoman Empire was not very efficient and lacking behind Western powers in a number of areas, especially in the Later Era. If it wasn't for Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian leadership, Sarajevo would have been an insignificant town.
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Post by kapetan on Aug 10, 2008 0:39:43 GMT -5
Sorry, I thought Bosniak was the ethnic designation. By the Ottoman Empire? No. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarajevo_in_the_Habsburg_EmpireIt's a fact that the Ottoman Empire was not very efficient and lacking behind Western powers in a number of areas, especially in the Later Era. If it wasn't for Austro-Hungarian and Yugoslavian leadership, Sarajevo would have been an insignificant town. No offense but you have no idea what you're talking about it seems. Sarajevo had it's golden age in the first half of the Ottoman Empire, then it's decline in the second half, as the whole Empire declined. Your page you linked to for Austrian "contributions" is tiny and barely shows anything, while there is 2 full, bigger pages on wiki about Ottoman Sarajevo. Here is the "Early Ottoman Sarajevo" page. Sarajevo as we know it today was founded by the Ottoman Empire in the 1450s upon conquering the region, with 1461 typically used as the city’s founding date. The first known Ottoman governor of Bosnia, Isa-Beg Išakoviæ, chose the tiny local village of Brodac as a good space for a new city. He exchanged land with its residents (Giving them today's Hrasnica neighborhood in Ilidža), and soon began building his provincial capital as he envisioned it. He quickly built a number of key objects, including a mosque, a closed marketplace, a public bath, a bridge, a hostel, and of course the governor’s castle (‘’Saray’’) which gave the city it’s present name. The mosque was named ‘’Carova Džamija’’ (the Tsar’s Mosque, the Imperial Mosque) in honor of the Sultan Mehmed II. With the improvements Sarajevo quickly grew into the largest city in the region. Many Christians converted to Islam at this time, as Ottoman reports from the period often tell of residents with Muslim names but of Christian named fathers, such as "Mehmed, son of Ivan". Meanwhile, an Orthodox population first appeared in Sarajevo at this time, as the Orthodox Church was built. A colony of Ragusan merchants also appeared in Sarajevo at this time. Soon after, in the early 16th century, the Sarajevo Haggadah came to Sarajevo along with Jewish refugees from Andalusia. For the first time in its history, Sarajevo was the city of four religions. The Jewish population made note of this, naming the city "The European Jerusalem"Under the wise leadership of people such as Gazi Husrev-beg (the city’s greatest donor who built most of what is now the Old Town) Sarajevo grew at a rapid rate. Sarajevo became known for its large marketplace and numerous mosques, which by the middle of the 16th century were over a hundred in number. Numerous other buildings appeared, including religious schools, such as the school of Sufi philosophy. Gazi Husrev-Beg himself established a number of buildings named in his honor, such as the Sarajevo library which, in its prime, was in the same category as the Madrassa of Beyazid II. Gazi Husrev-Beg also built the city's clock tower (Sahat Kula). Sarajevo became one of the most advanced cities in Europe. It had its own water system, clock tower, bathhouses, and schools. In a time when education was merely for the wealthy, and most Europeans considered baths to be unhealthy, Sarayliyas (Sa-ray-lee-yas, residents of Sarajevo) were among the cleanest and most culturally advanced commoners on the continent. A famous Sarajevan poet of the time wrote, "There it seems to man that he can live for a long time, for in a thousand places in Sarajevo flows water from the well of longevity".At its height, Sarajevo was the biggest and most important Ottoman city in the Balkans after Istanbul itself. By 1660, the population of Sarajevo was estimated to be over 80,000. Comparatively, Belgrade in 1838 had a mere 12,963 inhabitants, and Zagreb as late as 1851 had a lowly 14,000 people. If Sarajevo's fortune would have prevailed until 1700, it would have been the 10th biggest city in Europe. Had its population continued to grow significantly during that period of time, it would have likely been the 7th largest, just under Rome and Milan.This period of early Ottoman rule will be long remembered as Sarajevo's golden age. The 16th century was its peak, when nearly the whole city area (that would last until the late 19th century) was built. During the 17th century, Sarajevo didn't expand, although its population continued to grow. Its residents lived luxuriously, and Sarajevo was the richest city in the West Balkans after Dubrovnik. However the 1600s also brought the start of the decline of the Ottoman Empire. With the defeats at Vienna, the empire grew weaker, and along with the empire as a whole did its various regions. Although Sarajevo would remain prosperous until the very end of the 17th century, the latter half of it proved to be the beginning of the end."Second to Istanbul, and it makes Zagreb and Belgrade look like a vilige lol. Yea thats "insignificant" all right. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Ottoman_SarajevoDon't bother arguing unless you actualy read. What I will admit is that the Hapsburgs re-invigorated it after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and they brought things like archeology which Ottomans cared nothing about. You also left out the fact when Habsburgs took it over they pilliged and destroyed like nobody's business. Half their "construction" was just rebuilding. Me thinks you're exagarating Austrian and minimizing Ottoman contribution out of personal reasons and views...... Once again you know that the way the Ottoman system worked made Muslims the elite, so I don't understand what you're arguing.
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Boško Buha
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Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
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Post by Boško Buha on Aug 10, 2008 8:46:36 GMT -5
El Kapetan its basically a Serb and Croat way by saying Sarajevo is thiers, Bosnia is theirs.
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Zvone
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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Aug 10, 2008 9:50:49 GMT -5
I do not want to go into an argument with you because I don't think you understand any of the quips I wrote; I am guessing English isn't one of your strongest languages.
I wrote that the Ottoman Empire was very inefficient to begin with, considering Istanbul and its administration was long ways away, and that the Later period showed this to be true.
I don't know what the significance of the article you pasted is when you have not considered most of today's Sarajevo was built in the last 200 years. And it's not just true for Sarajevo, but for most of the cities in the Balkans.
Ottoman's have contributed a significant amount to the Balkans and the world for that matter, and I am not trying to argue against that. But, aside from your confusion of ethnic and religious rhetoric, I think you are minimizing the actual construction of Sarajevo which occurred in the last 200 years.
Look into your own hypocrisy. He is arguing that "Muslims" build everything, now what would that mean? That Bosnia belongs to the "Muslims"? Don't be so narrow-minded. I have never said that Sarajevo belonged to any one group.
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Post by kapetan on Aug 10, 2008 10:09:03 GMT -5
Not everyything, but lets be realistic lmao I'm pretty sure I see the biggest influence on the city when i see it, a blind man could.
Im not saying IN THE LEAST nobody else has a place there.... not in the least. I'm oproud of the cathedral i'm proud of the orthodox church the old jewish temple etc..
I'm just saying we've always been the main influence due to the system, and it's REALLY NO SHOCK we're even a bigger majority now after the war and the actions of the serb army towards sarajevo.... right? are you really suprised?
just to make it 100% clear i personaly have nothing agains croats, in any way. i was just tyring to state the obvious lol You put a wiki article with barely any actual detail about what Austria did then you doubt my article from the same site.
I admitted Habsburgs contributed but Sarajevo was already"the jreuselum" long before them which makes your comment of "sarajevo would be insignificant without them" kind of stupid and far fetched. you knew that though and you said it anyway lol
read a short history of bosnia, good book.
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Post by zgembo on Aug 10, 2008 10:31:57 GMT -5
Thing is, it is not just Sarajevo, it is every city centre during Ottoman times that was ruled by an Ottoman Muslim elite. If you base your argument on that you can lay claim to every city and its history and development. It ignores the fact Christians have been an absolute majority in Bosnia for the last 150 years, it also ignores the fact that rapid urbanization occured in Bosnia (and the rest of Europe) in the last 150 years. Sarajevo, just like all 'major' cities, was a sleepy village towns by todays standards during Ottoman times.
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Zvone
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Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Aug 10, 2008 10:58:55 GMT -5
^Exactly. Industrialization and the subsequent urbanization of cities is what produced Sarajevo to its modern day status. All I was saying is that Sarajevo was for the majority built in the last 200 years. And yes, without industrialization Sarajevo would have been insignificant and certainly the Austro-Hungarian empire and Yugoslavia came at a time when modernization was occurring.
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Boško Buha
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Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
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Post by Boško Buha on Aug 10, 2008 11:43:47 GMT -5
This rapid growth in industry and urban growth happend because Austrio-Hungary took control of Bosnia from the Ottomans and brought a whole new wave of "culture" to the area. The region was "primitive" by most in the west and the Ottomans were primitive people who did not look toward what the rest of Europe was doing, but were looking to keep everything as it was. Austro-Hungary modernized Sarajevo and the entire country so it could look like any other European city. Then again Serbs had to go and ruin all of that, but thats a whole different story.
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Demonel
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Post by Demonel on Aug 10, 2008 12:04:57 GMT -5
Did you ever go to Sarajevo? Most of it built in the last 200 years? LOL. Most of it was built in the last 50 years. Further arguing is pointless.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
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Post by Zvone on Aug 10, 2008 13:07:48 GMT -5
Nah, let's make it 40.
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