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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 15:21:41 GMT -5
Where is your source for this these? Want to see it...now.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 15:23:31 GMT -5
So, following your theory on arvanites' origins, you are no albanian. ok...
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 15, 2009 15:50:35 GMT -5
Where is your source for this these? Want to see it...now. I have to get back to school before I have access to those books again.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 16:05:27 GMT -5
I wont forget it and expect you to look for this passage, to copy and put it in here.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 15, 2009 16:07:42 GMT -5
Baba Jorgji me di gra njeren e muar njeren e la...lol....<-----Arvanitka dialect and song
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 15, 2009 16:32:14 GMT -5
[quote author=kastorianos board=hellasgreece thread=15688 post=133622 time=1232053527]I wont forget it and expect you to look for this passage, to copy and put it in here. [/quote]
For which exactly? The part about referring to them as Illyrians, you can just check Kritovoulos and his section on Mehmed II's campaigns in Albania. Or the letters of Manuel Palaiologos (cited in the old Bartolomeo Minio paper Bibleriot brought up). Its just archeizing: hoi men, hoi krettous ton tropov te kai tnv suvesin...mal'epeeivouv to mn sphas prokeisthai laphuron hetoimon ka boran xersi stomasi twn ektharwn... toutoi de kai wmophronoun kai homologoun kai ta twn Illyriwn hapanta smnmn.
The other Ill try and find the JSTOR articles I read for them and some of the works. Nicol in his work Despotate of Epiros also brought some good info on this. But Ill try and get the other works when I go back next week.
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Post by kasso on Jan 15, 2009 17:18:24 GMT -5
if my memory is not at fault Arvanites were known by the Greeks as petty thieves who didn't really catch up with the law
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Post by alb12345 on Jan 15, 2009 17:37:49 GMT -5
arvanitis them self say they pelasgians.Sample of Arvanitika arvanitika www.arvasynel.gr/arvanitikoi_dialogoi.html Eni te tzem Arberiste. Flet fare arbëriste ? Flas shum pak. Ku i dsure ? I dsura në stëpí. Flisnë tata Edhe mëma. Pse núku të dsun më shum ? Pse u dúkei pse ajo gljuha nuk veljen gjifáre. Tsë thua more, gljuha jon vlen shum. Ishtë shumë e vjetërë, ishtë gljuha e Pelasgevet, çë rroin këtu milje vitra më përpara. Gljuha jon íst gljuha éme ne shum gljuh Evropiane franqishtes, aglishtes, italishtes… Po njeh arbëriste ... ishte shume e vjetere,ishte gljuha e pelasgevet .... meens our language is very old is the language of pelasgians the rest meens that our language been living for long time and arvanitis language is the mother language is french english italian etj
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Post by servus on Jan 15, 2009 17:42:22 GMT -5
Greek "official" historiography and state never accepted such ideas.
Greeks "official" historiography also don't accept that many of your "ancient glory" was borrowed by the Persians.
Here is the difference between Arvanite and Arbereshe. Same waves of settlers, one went to Italy, the other in Greece.
Police, Town Mayor in villages in Italy all speak and identify with Albanians.
That women speaking to the interviewer said by doing the gesture: "We are from your hearts, and you are from our hearts".
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Post by Kastorianos on Jan 15, 2009 18:19:12 GMT -5
They identify themselves with the Albanians because they dont know them...there is the Ionian sea inbetween. The Arvanites on the other hand...have experienced...next to every other Greek...what kind of people albanians can be... how can you dare to even wonder about ther antipathy for the albanian people..seriously, how can you dare?
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Post by servus on Jan 15, 2009 18:28:23 GMT -5
Black humor Kastorianos. Or could it be that unlike Italy, Greece is highly chovinistic.
To me Arvanites are assimilated very well that we might as well claim them extinct people. Similarly, Albania or Albs does not wish to revive their national consinciousness. We are speaking here from a historical context.
However, the Arbereshi of Italy, are energetic people and are thriving as a minority under protection of Italian government. Thats the difference between two states.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 15, 2009 18:31:58 GMT -5
However, the Arbereshi of Italy, are energetic people and are thriving as a minority under protection of Italian government. Thats the difference between two states. Albania should be doing the same for the Greek Epirotes of Northern Epirus. NOT culturally genociding them...And then try and steal their cultural identities and history by the Albanians living there. .
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Post by kartadolofonos on Jan 15, 2009 18:41:10 GMT -5
lol !!!
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Post by servus on Jan 15, 2009 18:44:10 GMT -5
Arxihelas greek post-ww2 immigrants in Albania never were considerable.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 15, 2009 18:48:53 GMT -5
Arxihelas greek post-ww2 immigrants in Albania never were considerable. LOL !
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Post by tsompanos on Jan 15, 2009 18:53:30 GMT -5
so whats the discussion about now? you guys have typed so much you could fill a book and im too tired to read it
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Jan 15, 2009 19:56:03 GMT -5
Aadmin,
Being that you're such an admirerer of ancient Greek wisdom, I'd expect some more self-criticism from your side, not fairy tales.
Being warlike and freedom loving and converting to Islam were not necessarely two opposites. Some of the least warlike nations of the Ottoman empire, mainly engaged in trading etc, successfully preserved their Christian faith without a fight. The Greeks were one of them. With the help of a servile role played by the Phanariotes and the rest of their clergy, avoiding forceful conversion was easy. Infact, servitude towards the Ottomans was favoured over help from the West, as the role played by the Greek clergy during the rebellion of Dionysos the Philosopher, also dubbed as "Skylosofos" by the Phanariotes, so clearly showed.
Nevertheless, it stands clear that you have little knowledge on the subject, otherwise you would have known that it is not true that conversions among Arvanites were unheard of. The entire district of Vardounia was converted to Islam for instance, and the famous Ali Farmaki(s), vëllam or pobratin of Kolokotronis, was from there, an apparent Muslim.
How is this possible when not even the Greeks themselves were much aware (except for the educated elites of course) about their Hellenic ancestry, being that they still primarily identified as Christians and as 'Romans' (Romioi)?
No more than the rest, although all had their various ways. Greeks prefered the servile way, focusing mainly on trade. Albanians on the other hand pursued their warlike nature and fought for the Ottomans in battle, just as they fought for the Franks, Catalans, Venetians, the Germans etc. Infact, your example proves quite on the contrary that this tendency of searching battles for personal glory and fame, is precisely what links us furthermore to the Arvanites of old.
And by the way, the Arvanites too served Muslim lords in battle. Ali pasha Tepelena, an Albanian though, had many Arvanite warriors under his command, including Odhisea Andruco (Androutsos) and his father Gjergj Verushi.
Of course. Ismail Qemal Vlora was infact a Western spy who sabotaged the carving of Albania. The whole declaring of independence before the Conference of London is a hoax fabricated by the Albanian Communist propaganda machine ... etc.
LOL. If you knew anything about traditional Albanian and Arvanite culture, you'd be too ashamed to type the words of above. But let's settle with what you wrote. How is it possible that you, in contradiction with mainstream historiography which acknowledges the Arvanites as descendants of Albanian settlers from the north, not as "Dorians", deny us this link with the Arvanites, yet somehow miraculously succeed in linking your Montenegrins with the ancient Greeks ... atleast in our case, as you reluctantly admitted, we have the common language speaking for us. But what have you? Other than a, as I seem to notice, general self-hatred among you Serbs and a shame of all that is Slavic about yourself?
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Post by redbaron on Jan 15, 2009 21:16:18 GMT -5
so whats the discussion about know? you guys have typed so much you could fill a book and im too tired to read it I hear you Tsompanos. So to make a long story short. In the Albanian forum a Serb has posted scientific proof that we Albanians came from Chechnya.Here in the Greek forum a Serb has posted proof that we Albanians are Greeks. So it makes Greeks and Albanians the same people and we migrated in the Balkans from Chechnya. The real native people of the Balkans actually are the Slavs. That is why the slavo-Macedonians are the real descendants of Alexander the great. Look the Serbs just solved the greeko-Macedonian dispute.
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Post by tsompanos on Jan 15, 2009 21:34:18 GMT -5
oh my goodness!
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 15, 2009 23:46:34 GMT -5
Black humor Kastorianos. Or could it be that unlike Italy, Greece is highly chovinistic. To me Arvanites are assimilated very well that we might as well claim them extinct people. Similarly, Albania or Albs does not wish to revive their national consinciousness. We are speaking here from a historical context. However, the Arbereshi of Italy, are energetic people and are thriving as a minority under protection of Italian government. Thats the difference between two states. Italy is chauvinistic too...the Italian gov't is currently f**kign up the entire southern Albanian reviera and turning Albania into a Nuclear testing ground. and there were those 100 peopel who teh Italian navy drowend. i know peopel from Vlora who still have nightmares about it...
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