|
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Jan 16, 2009 0:18:33 GMT -5
If they call themselves Arbanite (Albanian in the english language) then how can you make them Romioi (Greek in the english language)
|
|
|
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Jan 16, 2009 0:20:28 GMT -5
Arvanite writing:
Do ta pres kotsidete do ta rivin nga skintete, do ta pres kotsidet gliate dhe tsi thoi nde i tate moi kotside dredhure shume t kane mbledhure moi kotside dragolie te te kishe ne aggalie ea te te puth nie here nani tse kam pir ver.
In modern Albanian:
Do ta pres koçidhetë (gërshetin ose flokun) Do ta pres nga zgjindetë Do ta pres koçidhen e gjatë Po që trëmbem nga yt atë Moj koçidhe dredhurë Shumë të kanë mbledhurë Moj koçidhe dragolie (gjarpëreshe) Të të kisha në agalie (krahë) Eja të të puth një herë Tani që kam pirë verë.
Case closed!
|
|
|
Post by tsompanos on Jan 16, 2009 1:08:02 GMT -5
If they call themselves Arbanite (Albanian in the english language) then how can you make them Romoi (Greek aka Gypsy) ah well if the the other greeks are gipsys then so are the arvanites because by blood they are exactly the same
|
|
|
Post by libofshe on Jan 16, 2009 5:46:48 GMT -5
They identify themselves with the Albanians because they dont know them...there is the Ionian sea inbetween. The Arvanites on the other hand...have experienced...next to every other Greek...what kind of people albanians can be... how can you dare to even wonder about ther antipathy for the albanian people..seriously, how can you dare? well done mate, spoken like a true scholar, you lose an argument and start resorting to infantile name calling, the greek way, you start throwing hissy fits when things go against you, the deeper you dig the more hidden truths you uncover
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jan 16, 2009 6:03:38 GMT -5
Do I?
|
|
|
Post by libofshe on Jan 16, 2009 6:41:51 GMT -5
no, that was a level headed remark you made
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Jan 16, 2009 12:19:22 GMT -5
So on one side you have warlike Arvanites who never allow themselves to be under Ottoman control (nor do they convert to Islam) Being warlike and freedom loving and converting to Islam were not necessarely two opposites. Some of the least warlike nations of the Ottoman empire, mainly engaged in trading etc, successfully preserved their Christian faith without a fight. The Greeks were one of them. With the help of a servile role played by the Phanariotes and the rest of their clergy, avoiding forceful conversion was easy. Infact, servitude towards the Ottomans was favoured over help from the West, as the role played by the Greek clergy during the rebellion of Dionysos the Philosopher, also dubbed as "Skylosofos" by the Phanariotes, so clearly showed. Nevertheless, it stands clear that you have little knowledge on the subject, otherwise you would have known that it is not true that conversions among Arvanites were unheard of. The entire district of Vardounia was converted to Islam for instance, and the famous Ali Farmaki(s), vëllam or pobratin of Kolokotronis, was from there, an apparent Muslim. Donnie, When someone comes and conquer your country and one compatriot of yours becomes one and the same with the enemy (see Hamza Kastrioti) is he a freedom lover or a traitor…? The same goes for whole villages which during the Ottoman yoke forgot their identity and their past struggles and become Turkoi (not with ethnological meaning, but with all the other meanings ,economically, religiously, socially etc etc ) . Were the about 30% of Albanians who stayed Christians(Orthodox or Catholics) idiots or slavish? Weren’t there some Catholic Gheg tribes that you are proud of today because of their autonomy?? But talking about these Ghegs it is reported in some memoirs of the Revolution that in the battle in Dervenakia where about 30.000 Ottomans (the forefront being Albanians) after the total predominance of the Greek irregular troops voices like “Yiam Kristian,Yiam Kristian” were heard in the full of killed bodies battlefield. What did those Albos had to do in Moreas? Honestly some times Albanians, when they had problems with the wage, or finally understood that they had no job down here they were helped to escape back to Albania…and we had less army to fight… Phanari and Phanariotes were a disaster for the Revolution. They were just money lovers who had as their dream a throne in Moldovlachia. If we exclude Ypsilantis the rest caused much problems in the Revolution(read below). Patriarcheion was under Turkish supervision and wasn’t free to express its thoughts,Patriarch Gregorios the 5th was hanged . Many highpriests were against any liberating movement because it was… God’s will to stay enslaved because of our byzantine sins…… Note that all the major fighters of the Independence were excommunicated… Greeks are grateful to the Church, not because of the highpriests but because of the simple papa of the village who thought the kids to write and read their names, and were really leaders, along with klephtes and armatolous, in the struggle, see Grigorios Dikaios Papaflessas, Athanasios Diakos, Palaion Patron Germanos etc etc. The conversion among Arvanites didn’t take place only among Vardounia, but in Lala and some other villages in Elis. Those were the tyrants of the Greek people in Moreas. My area is full of songs about Laliotes and their final lose by the Kephalonite(Jannoulatos compatriots) islanders who were those that you call “traders”! Lalliotes having such a power in the area that of course Turks didn’t like it, and you know my enemy’s enemy is my friend… How is this possible when not even the Greeks themselves were much aware (except for the educated elites of course) about their Hellenic ancestry, being that they still primarily identified as Christians and as 'Romans' (Romioi)? The band between Arvanites and Hellenophones Greeks wasn’t/isn’t based on blood as you mean it. It is based in blood as we mean it…the blood that everyone shed for this nation, faith and land. And yeesss, Greeks who identified/y as Romioi, thought that they were descendants of Julius Caesar and Romulus… No more than the rest, although all had their various ways. Greeks prefered the servile way, focusing mainly on trade. Albanians on the other hand pursued their warlike nature and fought for the Ottomans in battle, just as they fought for the Franks, Catalans, Venetians, the Germans etc. Infact, your example proves quite on the contrary that this tendency of searching battles for personal glory and fame, is precisely what links us furthermore to the Arvanites of old. What did this warlike spirit gave you after all? Independence? Small Montenegro with its own powers was liberated before you… and I bet that if you had territorial neighborhood with Turkey you would still be an Arnavud Sanjak… That a nation do and other things except wars(and it does very well judging from the facts), like producing culture, develop its economy and social structures as Greeks did, I think isn’t blameworthy… Without those poor traders nothing would have started back then in 1821… And by the way, the Arvanites too served Muslim lords in battle. Ali pasha Tepelena, an Albanian though, had many Arvanite warriors under his command, including Odhisea Andruco (Androutsos) and his father Gjergj Verushi. Funny…That you have read one book about the subject(I suppose Kocollari) doesn’t make you smart… Odysseas’ father was called Andeas(Andritsos) Varousis, and according to the Rumeliot way and my area’s way, the small Andreas comes to be Andrikos-Andritsos or Androutsos. And his father never served Ali…maybe they have met up in the mountains but finally Ali chased Andritsos. Speaking about Odysseas Androutsos the only I can say its that you know nothing._ I’ll quote two different sources, the first is the Englishman George Finlay(google him) who stayed with Androutos in his cave for about 3-4 months(I supposed he met him well). Lets see what he says:George Finlay History of the Greek Revolution,V2,p.94 “ Goura then feared that Odysseus might escape, and regain his former power. Interest prevailed over gratitude, and Odysseus was murdered on the night of 16th July. After the murder, his body was thrown from the Frank tower in the southern wing of the Propylaea, in order to give credit to the assertion that he perished by a fall in attempting to escape. Thus one of the most astute of the Greek chiefs fell a victim to the policy of a rude Albanian soldier whom he had raised to a high rank. And the son of that Andrutsos, who first raised the standard of revolt against the Othomans in 1769, is the traitor at whose name the finger of scorn is pointed by every Greek. Odysseus perished like his patron and model, Ali of Joannina, a sacrifice to his own selfishness ; and he will be execrated as long as the memory of the Greek Revolution shall endure.” Is it enough? The other source is Odysseas himself and by his hand… in his letters. This one is to Anastasios Lontos, a prominent man from Achaia. “ Mr Anastasios Lontos Even though I earned under the Turks, my diavolos taken away from me this aptness after we’ve risen the weapons. Why shall I babble? So much my diavolos “enlightened” me, to filled up with nits, to starve of bread, to lie on swaps, in snow and in mud, to taste every military ungratefulness , to drunk “poison” from enemies and friends, to be chased like a convict by those who supposed to be relatives and friends of Justice. To want national assemblies , to love the fair commanders, to be admirer of the virtuous and friend of the wise people, to thirst for autonomy and independence of Greece, wanting Hellenes and only Hellenes to command and rule among Hellenes(note his words). By these o mentor, you can come to the conclusion which diavolos in within me. It’s the diavolos which made Socrates to drink the poison for his veracious service to the fatherland, or it is the diavolos that made our fellow countrymen to surrender the Fatherland to Romans and afterwards to Turks. I personally believe that you have inside you the diavolo that Socrates had, you that you are educated and you read Xenophon and Platon.
Athena 14 February 1824 Odysseus Andritsou” I suppose you get it...when he talks about Fatherland and Socrates you can get what he means,right?? Also he is portrayed as “ knowing very well the Albanian language, and Italian”(by his biographer B.Anninos) and I suppose it isn’t something that it would be noted for an real Arvanitis, it would be self self-evident. But like he and many others who worked for Ali Pasha learned the language very well, helpful sometimes to fool some Tourkalvanous and save his ass…like in Dadi battle. This is a letter of Odysseas to Korais, who lived in France. “ The most of your lifetime you’ve spent it deported from the beloved fatherland, not standing to see her enslaved by the varvarian Turkish yoke. Migrated to the civilized nations not to live in luxury, but to get along with your loves(he mean literature), and collect as bee the most important teachings in order to rectificate the miserable Hellas. Your exertions weren’t ineffectually when you started to describe in our language the benefits that education brings to the world, our fellow countryman started to raise their mind in higher level and knowing our political situation. The liberal thoughts of Hellenes started to rise , and the everywhere spread prologues and comments of your publications sowed in the souls of Hellenes seeds of magnanimity and ancestral virtues.” Come on... And another one(detachment) to a Greek intellectual in Italy, Neofytos Vamvas. “ … The most important obtainment of Hellas is Athens. The zeal and the wisdom of the real patriots provided her whatever it was could be. So, behold the most suitable sit compatriot, to teach to the kids of Hellenes the virtue and the patriotism and the wisdom of our progenitors.… … “ Who are those progenitors??? Gjin Muzaka?or Gjin Sphata?
|
|
Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
|
Post by Patrinos on Jan 16, 2009 14:22:23 GMT -5
And about the role of Arvanites in Revolution... Here are the words of Fotios Xrysanthopoulos or Fotakos, first adjutant of Theodoros Kolokotronis and his pen...
"These they told to the foreigners, who easily persuaded, and one by one by one came and attached to one and another, I mean to Mavrokordatos and Negris and others, but to Dimitrios Ypsilantis none came close because he was united with the element of the land, and because of this Negris,Karatzas and Mavrokordatos didn’t trust him. Unfortunately with the three latter all the race of Greek Arvanites allied , and first of all island Ydra that gave them morale and material strength. As much as someone wants to hymn its race heroism and patriotism, he will find them always to love the material benefits instead of iternal glory. By them started and happened all the misadventures of the civil wars and other troubles. Real Greels wanting to seem superior and tolerant for the good of the general cause, and for not to be accused for exclusiveness, wanted to accept, and accepted from all the parts representatives without having analogous real population. They neither paid taxes, nor did drudgeries, nor gave soldiers, nor weights suffered, nor any job did without paying them. All the weights and miseries of the struggle the locals(Grecophones) suffered. They(Grecophones) acted bravely, impassively and ingenuously, the other(Arvanites) guilefully, insidiously and wilily were thinking and acted so they managed to gain extra rights, strengthened , got the majority in the administration and pushed away the locals(Grecophones) of the political things. This spirit existed then, the same spirit and energy exists and today. For this among ,the Greek troops , disbelief is rising, and all the misfortunes in the Nation. So political intrigue finds much “food” here, and the national progress regress. Finally the representatives of the both sides started to gather, and the one part(phanararvanitiko) had as gatherpoint Kranidi and Kastri of Ermioni, the other under Ypsilantis and Kolokotronis had Nauplion…"
Xrysanthopoulos Fotios-Fotakos-Apomnimoneumata peri tis Ellinikis Epanastaseos,v.4,p.70
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on Jan 16, 2009 15:25:05 GMT -5
Its amazing how much difference exists in the minds and in the pride of people who live near.
I've read 1 million times Albanians claiming Arvanites as of their own. They die to proove a blood connection. One the other hand, I've read 1 million times Arvanites claiming not-at-all connection with the Albanians. On the contrary, they hate Albanians more than any other Greek.
..and now I wonder; If.. I.. as a Greek...new about a "Greek" who lives in a foreign land.. and denounce his "Greek" roots... I would have hate him twice! I would be the first who would fight against any "proof" of same blood! Albanians on the other side.. open and open and open again threads about how blood conected are with Arvanites.
Question: Do you know the definition of the word "Pride"?
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jan 16, 2009 16:58:18 GMT -5
That question's answer is that the albanians want to use the Arvanites for their own purposes...they want to harm Greece through this. Its not that they really care for the Arvanites...if they cared for all their people, they wouldnt treat the Chams like s.hit. Imagine the Arvanites of Greece would all migrate "back" to Albania...want to see if they would still "love" them so much.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 16, 2009 17:07:12 GMT -5
We have Arvanites moving back to Albania, they are Albanians who moved to Greece in recent years and returned... they are not treated very well in schools and are made fun of for the fact that they speak a poor Albanians. Albanians can be very very racist, some of those who have experienced this are Himariots in Tirana. Many of them rejected Albanianism simply because they themselves were rejected.
And your answer isnt all that correct. A Greek-Albanian has a good answer for this: (Albquietman gave me a ton of help in translating this since I couldnt put any words in a translator)
Genika den m'aresei na grafo sta wall, aplos diabazo ti grafoun oi alloi gia na diamorfoso mia geniki eikona, alla afou to group auto einai anoixto kai dimokratiko apofasisa na grapso kai ego kati (ektos apo tis xristougenniatikes euxes mia bdomada prin). Auto pou mou kanei entuposi diabazontas ayta pou grafoun oi Arbanites sauto to group einai oti molis akoune to onoma Alvania kai Alvanous, oloi tsantizontai kai i neurikotita paei sta upsi. Mou kanei entuposi giati amesos arxizoun kai lene gia sxedia, sunomosies kai gia polla alla paramuthia. Paidia pragmatika tha ithela na sas enimeroso FILIKA kai me tin kaluteri eikona pou exo gia tin Ellada (dioti kai ego Ellinas apo tin Alvania eimai kai episis perasa stin Athina ta foititika mou xronia), oti i Alvania den exei tetoies proteraiotites omos alles, exei tin oikonomiki anaptuksi tis, kai se auto fainetai oti pame kala.
2. Oson afora ta videa pou eseis basizeste, auta einai dimiourgima oligon Alvanon amorfoton, opos ta idia kanoun kai kapioi Ellines amorfotoi, Tourkoi Amorfotoi kai paei legontas. Ean ego tha ekana kapoia paromoiosi ton Alvanon me tous Arvanites, tha elega oti einai i glossa. Den thelo na po tipote ma tipote peri istorias kai peri katagogon. Alla afou I dialektos sas moiazei me ta episima Albanika (ego sunenooume aneta me tous filous mou tous Arvanites xoris na niotho oute ego alla oute kiautoi kamia duskolia), giati na min uparxei auto to politistiko stoixeio pou na sundeei tin Ellada me tin Alvania, me tin ennoia tis amoibaias beltiosis tis eikonas!
3. Sas roto FILIKA kai xoris kamia kaki skopimotita, “ti tha legate eseis ean I dialektos sas emoiaze me ta gallika, germanika, agglika, I telos panton me kapoia glossa mias aneptugmenis xoras?!! ” H apopsi mou einai oti an kai zoume ton 21 aiona, opos elege kai o Marx (an kai ego den ton pao) I oikonomia prosdiorizei ta pragmata. Oi Alvanoi simera einai enas ftoxos kai metanasteutikos laos stis geitonikes xores, Logika i oxi, simera yparxei mia eikona katoterotitas tou Albanikou laou kai katheti prosomoiazei me auto, den fainetai eukola. I eikona auti tha allaksei ta epomena xronia kai tis epomenes dekaeties. Kai auto nomizo oti tha allaksi kai sumperifores. Me polu ektimisi, Jordan
|
|
|
Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 16, 2009 17:11:32 GMT -5
lol omg roflmao ahahahaha...Arvanite obobo ;D
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jan 16, 2009 17:13:39 GMT -5
These are not Arvanites. Arvanites are people that were never living in the Albanian state...thus living in Greece before 1990. Everything albanian speaking since 1990 is Alvanos, not Arvanitis. But how is this comment of "Jordan" an answer to the question?
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 16, 2009 17:13:40 GMT -5
^^ I didnt mean literal ones... I meant in the sense of the concept.
For many Albs it was wierd to go to Greece and find these people who can speak the same exact language as you... it was out of this world initially, something like a home away from home. Then they discovered the mentality of these people. We have a national identity which stresses the idea of an ethnic being above that of a religious being. We don't only talk about Arvanites, but the Arnauts of Turkey or Egypt as well, along with the Arberesh of Italy or Sardinia. Of course the reality of these communities is different from our idealized view of a nation outside of our nation. Which is why many of us cant conceptualize how these people act and have trouble accepting it.
Its a mistake. I for one have nothing to do with either the Arberesh nor Arvanites, I accept that they are utterly detached from the historical developments that my ethnicity underwent. And as such I, along with probably more Albs than they like to admit, would have trouble accepting them... especially for those whose religion and church is a part of their identity (Arberesh/Arvanites)
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jan 16, 2009 17:25:47 GMT -5
But I meant it literally...I was talking about the Arvanites living in Greece for 400 or more years now. Imagine if they treat the Albanian immigrants like s.hit...what they will do with the Arvanites then.
As for the comment...its written by a Greek Northern Epirote...not an Albanian. Its a Greek who feels compassion with the Albanians that are hated so much by the Arvanites...and so he writes such a text in order to arbitrate between both sides. Whenever you see an albanian talking to arvanites...he will always talk of oppression by the Greek state...how bad the Greeks are...and that the arvanites should finally concentrate and act against this oppression and of course the Greek state. Such things. They seem to forget that this state is as well a product of those people's ancestors. Greece didnt become the home of the Arvanites it is their home-country and has always been.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 16, 2009 17:36:49 GMT -5
Because with good reason. Many of the Chams born in the 20's or who had parents from such a time can speak about how they were made feel if they spoke their language... even more so for the Christian Chams.
It all has its background in something.
Its not uncommon for Greek-Albanians to speak this way. I know a Himariot who continues to bring up Arvanites as "models" for my people. Why? Well they need to reconcile something since they feel at home in Albania but are in fact Greeks (many of them often have family members who are Albanians or married to them). So they attach themselves to such groups and want Albs to do so as well. Other times you have BS societies like this Jordan's "friendship" socities which he opens. Something which I personally hate, its not their business to define what Albs are nor to push for reconciliation because of their own problems. But thats besides the point.
So as you can see, its not just us who feel like bringing up the Arvanites... sometimes they are shoved down our throats by "Others" in our country.
|
|
|
Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 16, 2009 18:26:40 GMT -5
^^If its possibel for u to have Greeks in ur family dont u think its possibel that Arvanites mixed with the local Greek population?
and wahts this "shoved" down ur throat...first you say waht he wrote is "good"...now its being shoved down your throat. dk about u but good is pretty straighforward word.
its not rocket science its just waht happens when peopel migrate. it happens in America, it happens everywhere. 2 peopel in here are Arvanites they say they'r Greek another one might be of partical Arvanite ancestry he says hes Greek. they cant be both Greek and Albanian waht kind of fucking sense would taht make? so since ur the genius u come up with a solution for them whiel they live in Greece which is pretty hardcore about these things since they say 97% of Greece is Greek with few Muslim Turkish minorities.
nothing is being shoved down your throat, and if you cant read Greek you probebly shouldnt post waht <<Jordan>> wrote and say its "good".
in case you didnt get it taths waht the "rofl" "omg" and "lolz" was directed towards.
|
|
|
Post by meltdown711 on Jan 16, 2009 20:20:33 GMT -5
Im not talking about his particular post but its quite agrivating to be in some Alb forum and have a Himariot suddenly come along and try and push his conceptualization of the "proper" Alb (something like a jackass Arvanit) which people are not in order to make himself feel better. It happens all too often in any Alb discussion online. If it doesnt work out, he relegates to calling everyone Turks, example: ------------------- cpune ka greku me neve? kishte ndonjere lufte shqiperia me grekun? kishte ndonje sundim grek shqiperia? e dyta saper janinen greke ishte mos ja fusni kot u fut ali pashe tepelena e mori me dhune... pastaj e moren prape greket... saper camet.... mire ja u beri greku se camet ishin trathtare..... camet kalonin mire fare tek greku dhe kishin prona si trazonte njeri.... kur u be lufta me gjermanin camet u hodhen me gjermanin...... ca ishte kjo? TRATHTI! kur ti ke lufte ne shqiperi me gjermanin dhe camet do hidhen me gjermanet ? prandaj as enver hoxha si deshte.!!! ashtu sic shtruan ashtu do flene!. me grekun skemi pas ndonje lufte.... me turkun po..... 500 vjete me radhe te qiu gjyshen dhe te ndryshoi racen ....... ate skenderbeun pse ma mbani ne tirane kot ? ........ ----------------- They want to push the identity a certain way so they can feel better about themselves. These are the kind of people who push the Arvanits down the throats of Albs. I rarely get angry in forums, generally Im too laid back, but hearing these people make their fukin posts is like watching any person who you might despise walk around your home as he pleases and order your around. So get a proper argument.
|
|
|
Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 16, 2009 21:56:13 GMT -5
^^What proper argument? you posted what he wrote in Greek, without understanding it and you said it's good. Then you said "It's being pushed down your throat." ( ) I could care less about waht some random Himariot writes, hes not here, i was just responding to waht you wrote. you're way off topic lol.
|
|
|
Post by ILIRI I MADH on Jan 17, 2009 1:58:43 GMT -5
|
|