Post by donnie on Jan 17, 2009 14:53:12 GMT -5
Moraitis
If you read some history, you would know the true traitors to be the likes of the Palaiologoi and your entire Greek Church. The very fact that you did preserve your Orthodox faith, and we did not, is connected to the fact that your forefathers played a subservient role vis-á-vis the Turks, while we did not have a Church to remind its flock of the "fires of Hell". And no, I do not equate the Catholic Geg highlanders to you. They preserved their faith not because of a soul-less clergy which sold itself, but through raw strength and brave hearts.
I suggest you read about Dionysos the Philosopher. Heard of him? Probably not, few Greeks have. He was dubbed Dionysos Skylosofos by the Greek clergy due to his activities which aimed to liberate Thessaly and Epirus from Ottoman yoke. Instead of supporting his struggle, Greek clergy denounced him; I suggest you read the work "Logos Steleutikos" by bishop Maximos of Morea, where he curses Dionysos for having the audacity to disturb the peace (D. Sarros, 'Epeirotika Chronica', nr 3, 1928, p. 188-210). The same bishop also denounced the bishop of Gjirokastër (Albania), Matthew, and the people of Arta on the same premise.
To label the conversion to Islam in Albania as an act of collective treason is foolish, ridiculous and typical of simpletons such as yourself. The way you make it sound, one would guess that we, in the face of the Turkish war machinery, submitted immediately, circumcised ourselves and declared Muslims. Collective conversions on a serious scale became more common about a century or more after Skanderbeg's death. And they were no more an act of treason than our initial conversion to Christianity. The conversion to Islam was a social phenomenon which arose due to special social circumstances. On one hand, the destruction in Albania as a result of the wars in the 1400s & 1500s were tremendous, by far surpassing the sufferings of other Balkan countries. Secondly, there was no unified Church, nor the direct presence of numerous priests that could lead the people and prevent them from converting. The feudal structure of the Albanian society paved the way to conversion similiarly to Bosnia, where you too had weak Church institutions due to a continuous conflict between West and East as well local sects.
If you seriously think Albanians were more predisposed to cowardice and thus conversion to Islam, you're a bigger pathological fool than I thought, and a narcissistic one at that. In the end, it is a matter of perspective. Were we "traitors" because we accepted the faith of our enemy? It makes as much sense to say that those who remained Christians were traitors as well, because they preserved the religions of enemies too; the Byzantines were as much our enemies as the Turks were, and Catholic invaders and usurpers were not unheard of either (Venice).
To me, treason would have been to forget our national identity and language. But we still keep calling ourselves Albanians, and we still speak Albanian. This despite that amidst us we do not have only Muslims, but Orthodox and Catholics as well. They all look beyond their differences and unite under one Albanian banner. That is heroism to me ... which is more than I can say abo you, whose forefathers massacred their Muslim countrymen under the accusation of them being "Turks" ... when they were little more than converted locals.
If you read some history, you would know the true traitors to be the likes of the Palaiologoi and your entire Greek Church. The very fact that you did preserve your Orthodox faith, and we did not, is connected to the fact that your forefathers played a subservient role vis-á-vis the Turks, while we did not have a Church to remind its flock of the "fires of Hell". And no, I do not equate the Catholic Geg highlanders to you. They preserved their faith not because of a soul-less clergy which sold itself, but through raw strength and brave hearts.
I suggest you read about Dionysos the Philosopher. Heard of him? Probably not, few Greeks have. He was dubbed Dionysos Skylosofos by the Greek clergy due to his activities which aimed to liberate Thessaly and Epirus from Ottoman yoke. Instead of supporting his struggle, Greek clergy denounced him; I suggest you read the work "Logos Steleutikos" by bishop Maximos of Morea, where he curses Dionysos for having the audacity to disturb the peace (D. Sarros, 'Epeirotika Chronica', nr 3, 1928, p. 188-210). The same bishop also denounced the bishop of Gjirokastër (Albania), Matthew, and the people of Arta on the same premise.
To label the conversion to Islam in Albania as an act of collective treason is foolish, ridiculous and typical of simpletons such as yourself. The way you make it sound, one would guess that we, in the face of the Turkish war machinery, submitted immediately, circumcised ourselves and declared Muslims. Collective conversions on a serious scale became more common about a century or more after Skanderbeg's death. And they were no more an act of treason than our initial conversion to Christianity. The conversion to Islam was a social phenomenon which arose due to special social circumstances. On one hand, the destruction in Albania as a result of the wars in the 1400s & 1500s were tremendous, by far surpassing the sufferings of other Balkan countries. Secondly, there was no unified Church, nor the direct presence of numerous priests that could lead the people and prevent them from converting. The feudal structure of the Albanian society paved the way to conversion similiarly to Bosnia, where you too had weak Church institutions due to a continuous conflict between West and East as well local sects.
If you seriously think Albanians were more predisposed to cowardice and thus conversion to Islam, you're a bigger pathological fool than I thought, and a narcissistic one at that. In the end, it is a matter of perspective. Were we "traitors" because we accepted the faith of our enemy? It makes as much sense to say that those who remained Christians were traitors as well, because they preserved the religions of enemies too; the Byzantines were as much our enemies as the Turks were, and Catholic invaders and usurpers were not unheard of either (Venice).
To me, treason would have been to forget our national identity and language. But we still keep calling ourselves Albanians, and we still speak Albanian. This despite that amidst us we do not have only Muslims, but Orthodox and Catholics as well. They all look beyond their differences and unite under one Albanian banner. That is heroism to me ... which is more than I can say abo you, whose forefathers massacred their Muslim countrymen under the accusation of them being "Turks" ... when they were little more than converted locals.