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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 17:06:02 GMT -5
Thats an issue I would love to hear your opinions. Macedonia's country side during Ottoman years was a place full of Greeks, Bulgarians, Turks (from Kirgistan, Albania, Kaucasous etc etc), etc. Thessaloniki was a different case. Greeks, Jews, Turks from Konstantinoupoli and a minority of Bulgarians was the population. Taking under consideration what Fyromians claim (that ancient Macedonians dissapeared suddenly!) and that today there is no need to talk about Macedonia and to reffer to the ancient ones.... I would love to hear your opinions. My opinion is the following and comes from what I saw with my own eyes: My village is in Serres. Its kind of isolated. Isolated means.. not on the valley or near a road. In generally, Macedonian villages of "dopioi" used to be on the mountains or near the base of a mountain. For sure not where anyone can have access. Next to my village (in 3-4 km away) it was a Bulgarian village. In 2 km away it was a Turkish village. After 5-6 km it was a Macedonian village again. Today there are many villages in the valley (in 10-15 km away) with Greek refuggees from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and South Bulgaria). The villagers of my village until recently (20-25 years ago) were some how "hostile" to everything "not familiar" in my village. For example they were telling their sons and daughters (including me ) to get marry a nice girl and be sure she is from our village or at least from the other Macedonian villages no more than 10-20 km away where we were sure that they were Macedonians too. From our race! The funny thing is that half of the sons and doughters were born in Thessaloniki or Athens due to internal immigration and it was very difficult to mate with a girl from you area. How can you find a girl from your village or near villages in a city of 1,5 or 5 million people? But that was the trend. Be sure she/he is one of us! Grandmas were very tottalitarian on this issue! Also they were blaiming someone who got married with a Greek girl from the villages of the Greek refuggees! Of course not to speak about a foreigner... ! They started to "accept" wives and husbands from Germany (where many were working there as economic immigrants) or other countries very very recently. Until now.. they were never a part of the small society. Now the questions: In an environment where people create villages to separate themselves from eachother (Macedonians, Bulgarians, Muslims and recently, refuggees).. In an environment where people dont accept as of their own even Greeks from other regions... In an environment where people have that "our race" so high.. In an environment where people had never had access to media or TV or political tricks, but they just knew that they must "keep their own race pure from the "others".. In an environment where people never got out of their village for ALL their life before the internal immigration to cities.. In an environment that makes you feel uncofortable even today sometimes if you're not from the village... In an environment where foreigners (like Germans, English or whatever who were not traditional "enemies")... again they were representing something... stupid or with less brain capability.. or something not worthing to mention.. Imagine the traditional "enemies" like Turks or Bulgarians (they mean Fyromians). In an environment so close to anything different.... How can a purity of a race cannot be real? The same was for Pontians for Epirots etc etc and generally for every Greek tribe. until recently where commounication/mobility between people has become easy and education became a must. Really now... how can purity of a race can be distort?
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 17:18:10 GMT -5
pS. of course that stoped with our fathers generation. Today marriages between Greeks and foreigners tend to be more than Greeks with Greeks in some places in Greece. Lets talk about the previous years.
PS. ALL IRRELEVANT POSTS TO THIS ISSUE OR TROLL POSTS WILL BE DELETED!! NOW THAT I MADE MYSELF CLEAR.. LETS CONTINUE..
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 17:27:38 GMT -5
Muslim villages. Everybody who was Muslim regardless his ethnicity was called Turk that time... at least in Greece. Even a Greek girl who was kidnapped from a Turk and gave birth to his child or just raped her without a child born, automaticaly she was a Turk for the rest of the Greeks. More than 3-4 million Greeks forced to live Greece for Western Turkey after the Greek revolution. They were not safe due to the revenge. Any kind of interaction with Turks, not to mention to change religion for gaining something, was a reason for revenge. The same, I believe happened to all Christian countries in Balkans when they got free. Dont you ever wondered how it comes and all Western Turks look sooo European?
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 17:44:29 GMT -5
Yeah, of course.
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Post by Arxileas on Oct 23, 2008 17:58:27 GMT -5
Christians were the ex-Byzantine empire member states such as Greeks, Serbs Bulgaria, Romanians etc; Orthodox or none ex-Byzantine empire member states the "Catholics".
Anyone who was a muslim was considered a Turk by the Turks them self's and this is a fact to this day, thus what they are trying to do in Thrace today.....
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 18:05:43 GMT -5
Christians in Macedonia were called Greeks.
..but as I mentioned before... to be Christian was not a passport to a Macedonian village in our example.
The Greek reffugees who came from Eastern Thrace, Asia minor or Anatolia or Pontus were Greeks and Christians. Most of them were speaking Greek... but again they were "xenoi".. "not from our race".
I understand what you mean about the small commounities... but again.... how purity can be distort when these are the rules in these small communities? Thats the question.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 18:18:35 GMT -5
"so could they have been slavs ,albs and others in that mix ?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ No ofcourse. If they were Slavs they would be Bulgarians and Bulgarians had their own villages.
Albs on the other side were some kind of soldiers of fortune for the Turk authorities. They never came so deep down in Macedonia in big numbers. They were only men, and they were usually located in the city (Thessaloniki). They have never formed commounities or villages. If any was to quit his job as a soldier of fortune and prefered to live in the country side (not something common! ) he would be accepted in a Turk/Muslim village since the Alb was a Muslim too.
"how much differ in greek language do you think there was ?" --------------------------------------------------------------- it depends. From cities like Smyrni they were speaking perfect Greek. But in villages deep in Anatolia, where the Turkish element was bigger in the souround area.. their Turkish were better than their Greek.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 18:39:05 GMT -5
"I imagine your talking your grandparents time here?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I can trace back my family tree back to 1750 when my house was built. Older than my grandparents older than any Greek refugge comes in the region.. older even before Greek state was created.
"but I imagine you have many Arvanits in your area ,no ?" -------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. Arvanites went to Attica, Sterea Ellas and some islands near to Attica. We didnt have Arvanites in Serres. I've heard from my grandpa, some guys from Epirus were coming time to time to build stuff with stones in the city of Serres. 20 km away from our village. But there were employees on a mission for a period. Not settlers. There is not even a clue that they were Arvanites. They may just were Epirots, not of the Tribe of arvanites.
"is it safe to say that they came with their CO religion intact ?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course. Their religion was intact. That is why they became refuggees from Turkey.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 23, 2008 18:55:53 GMT -5
"all I know about Serres is that it was well know for having a large slavic populatioins ...and I even think Serbia had aspirations of it or down to it ...." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Serres as all Macedonian municipalities had Slavic populations. Not as many of course so as to win in Macedonian Struggle with the locals.. Serbia is out of it. We never heard of Serbs or something Serbian in Serres so as to deal with them or feel them as threat. When we say Slavic.. we mean and meant south Bulgarians (today Fyrom) "but in all that time non of em were converted to being muslims by force or sway" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I dont know for sure. What I know for sure is that the ones who came in Macedonia were Christian Orthodox. For sure... some would have changed back in Anatolia so as noT to loose their property or stuff. But in Macedonia and inside the new formed Greek state... there were no need to convert to Muslim. .... plus... it would no be a good idea.. Rexy... the 4 moves are behind.. and I dont see any check mat Maybe its time for you to start saying that ancient Macedonians and modern Macedonians... is something that... continoues? ... I say maybe... just maybe... because you cannot change that purity issue on Macedonians that you love to challenge... eh mate? PS. by the way .... since I leave in Greece and not in US... you know the time difference ... I must go and sleep. I wait for your views on the initial post. To all the guys: Guys... dont interrupt the discussion! I think we gonna have a dead end here for opinions like "ancient Macedonians were kiddnaped by Marcians" Any interuption will be deleted. Just add on the initial issue or make question on the innitial issue. NO INTERRUPTION!
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Post by kartadolofonos on Oct 23, 2008 19:03:38 GMT -5
The population of Serres has always spoken Greek and never Slavic
Greek- Serbian-Bulgarian exchange of populations in 1919
Geographic some parts of Ancient Macedonia who was Greek became a Slavic-speaking area, under Byzantine rule in 7 th century when the Slavs arrived in this area. The Greeks converted the Slavs to Orthodox Christian. The area of Thessaloniki and souther was Greek-speaking (from there did Saints Cyrilos and Methodios come, the ones that -according to most opinions- created the Cyrillic alphabet). The Byzantine emperor himself didn't care too much about nationalities outside the capital, Constantinople. People were sometimes transferred, in large numbers, from the Balkans to Anatolia and vice-versa, in order for a balance to be achieved, i.e. no revolts.
When the empire started diminishing, around the 11th century, large areas in Anatolia were lost to the Turks. Most of ancient Macedonia was conquered either by the Serbs, who had created a kingdom, by the Bulgarians, or by the Ottoman Turks. The area of Thessaloniki and Chalkidiki remained in Byzantine hands -at this period there was a brief "high" period for culture. Ancient writers were again being studied by the Byzantine monks. They started calling themselves "Hellenes" again by the 11th century A.D.
There hadn't been any indication of a Macedonian nation by then. If people really considered nations as we do today. My opinion is that they were more proud of the Kingdom (and every State) and religion. In any case, Macedonia was a very mixed area, both ethnologically and linguistically. Under the Ottoman domination it only became more diverse. Gypsies started coming. Sephardite Jews that were evicted from Spain settled in Thessaloniki. In the early 19th century the Sephardite Jews numbered 200.000! Turks settled also.
(Btw, what does a Turk mean? A person who has the Turkish national consciousness and speaks the Turkish language, usually. Most Turks are descendants of the people that lived before in Anatolia - which used to be Greek-speaking, - and only about 15% has roots to the Central Asian invadors. A large portion of Turks can claim their origin to the yenitzari practice, in which Christians - Greeks, Slavs, etc. - were forcefully taken from their families and bred with a Turkish national consciousness in order to serve the army, and also many people were converted to Islam and declared Turks. They mainly imposed their language and culture, not their "genes", because they were rather few. In contrast, in a large part of Macedonia the Slavs actually settled, mostly peacefully, altering the ethnic composition.)
Now we've reached the 18th century. Greece is an independent country, as is Bulgaria. Both parties are heavily trying to assimilate the local population of Macedonia, in order to annex it from the collapsing Ottoman Empire. Heavy fighting and harsh practices, from both sides. Both countries had formulated a national identity. Greece had declared a continuity with ancient Greece - which in fact is a linguistic connection, 65% of Homer's words are still in use or understood, but in terms of genetics it could be 30-70% depending on area.
The area of Ancient Macedonia Thessaloniki and souther was always the majority Greek-speaking part.
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Post by Kastorianos on Oct 24, 2008 5:12:53 GMT -5
Vasili first of all I think you should be thankful if your village people are not pure in race. When such a small area remains isolated for many centuries you will one day have an incestuous society. Then...the thing with "tis ratsas mas"....Im sure thats a phenomenon that developed after the turkish rule...or meanwhile. But the Bulgarians for example arrived at this area much earlier (6. century ad) and dont forget they had conquered for some time whole Macedonia (except Thessaloniki)...not for such a long time...but...it was enough to settle their people in these regions. When Macedonia got reconquered by Byzantium...all these Slavs were systematically graecized by the Byzantines. So your forefathers could be Greeks for over 1000 years now...but they would be still slavs in origin. I dont think you can prove by showing us the present situation, that very much probably is a product of present political events, the purity of a region. If you want to know exactly...make a dna test. Im sure you will be surprised.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 24, 2008 12:01:54 GMT -5
Because in Macedonia (the region), Greece and Bulgaria settled Armenians, Pechenegs, Uzis, Latin knights etc. (it is documented) and now they dont exsist as such. Now they are Greeks, Bulgarians or brainwashed Bulgarians. That means that intermarrages have always existed.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 24, 2008 12:26:51 GMT -5
ioan "Because in Macedonia (the region), Greece and Bulgaria settled Armenians, Pechenegs, Uzis, Latin knights etc. (it is documented) and now they dont exsist as such. Now they are Greeks, Bulgarians or brainwashed Bulgarians. That means that intermarrages have always existed." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats a statement... but without examples. I gave plenty of examples in the first post why, although visitors were passing by, the locals were close to anything knew.
Read the first post, and come with examples next time. No just bla bla bla. Examples.
For example expain to us how all these Armenians, Pechenegs, Uzis, Latin knights etc etc got into a village of Macedonians and intermixed with locals. As I've show to you... that was not an option even 100 years before.. imagine the older rough years this visitors.
Examples..... how do you imagine it...
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Post by meltdown711 on Oct 24, 2008 12:31:31 GMT -5
The settled knights were probably not average villagers but most probably land owners.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 24, 2008 12:41:43 GMT -5
The Armenians that settled between the 6th and the 11th century in the Rhodopes, Thrace and Macedonia were several thousand in number and were mostly Paulicians and Tondrakians. They had very strong ties and influenced the Bulgarian sect of the Bogomils and were later assimilated into it, Bulgarianized and later converted to Roman Catholicism (see Roman Catholicism in Bulgaria) or Islam (see Pomaks). The mother of 11th-century Bulgarian tsar Samuil was the daughter of the Armenian king, Ashot II and 10th-century Tsar Peter I's wife was the granddaughter of Byzantine emperor of Armenian origin Romanos I Lekapenos, Maria. Another Byzantine emperor—Basil I, the founder of the Macedonian dynasty and an Armenian from Thrace—spent his early years as a captive in the First Bulgarian Empire in the 9th century. After both Bulgaria and Armenia were conquered by the Ottoman Empire, many Armenian settlers from Armenia, Crimea, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Asia Minor arrived in what is now Bulgaria due to internal migration. Those coming from Armenia were forced to seek a new homeland because of their country's devastation by Arabs, Persians, and Turks en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_BulgariaThe presence of Armenians in Greece dates back centuries when Armenians settled in Thessalia, Macedonia, Thrace and the islands of Crete and Kerkyra for various reasons such as war and business. Proof of their presence in Greece can be found in several historical testimonies, the genealogical history of certain old Armenian families and the names of some towns or villages that have Armenian names, such as an old village of Thessalia that was named Armenos, a village between the cities of Larissa and Volos that is called Armenio and other settlements in various places of mainland Greece and in the islands. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_GreeceThe Cumans in Bulgaria and Romania: The Cuman influence in the region of Wallachia and Moldavia was so strong that the earliest Wallachian rulers bore Cuman names. Given that the rulers Tihomir and Bassarab I governed territories formerly ruled by Romanian leaders (mentioned in the Diploma of the Joannites of 1247), and given that there is no archaeological evidence to sustain the continuous presence of a Cuman population (only Hungarian documents mentioning a toll-paying Wallachian population), the ruling elite was gradually assimilated such as in Bulgaria's case by the majority population they governed, which became Romanian. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CumansThere are alot of other examples.
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 24, 2008 12:49:09 GMT -5
Kastorianos, "Vasili first of all I think you should be thankful if your village people are not pure in race. When such a small area remains isolated for many centuries you will one day have an incestuous society." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not for racially purity and stuff like that. It just happened. "Then...the thing with "tis ratsas mas"....Im sure thats a phenomenon that developed after the turkish rule...or meanwhile." ---------------------------------------------------------- Why? Justinian killed half of the population of Thessaloniki because they killed his GOTHIC guard during Buzantium Era. Before Byzantium Era, city states were in war between them. 2 examples that Greeks, especially in the region of Macedonia, were always hostile to something unfamiliar. So... why that phenomenon should have developed after the turkish rule and not... since ever? Simple.. "But the Bulgarians for example arrived at this area much earlier (6. century ad) and dont forget they had conquered for some time whole Macedonia (except Thessaloniki)...not for such a long time...but...it was enough to settle their people in these regions. When Macedonia got reconquered by Byzantium...all these Slavs were systematically graecized by the Byzantines. So your forefathers could be Greeks for over 1000 years now...but they would be still slavs in origin. " -------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all, Slavic invation reached even Pelopenesus. The Slavic element was outside Patra city. Second, Slavs were not graecized. Slavs were always knew they're different from Byzantines and that is why they had .. CONTINIOUS wars and attacks on Byzantines. For sure... naming a King as "Boulgaroktonos"... is not the best way to Hellenize the Bulgarians Third, what makes you believe that Slav settlers didnt have their OWN settlements? Thats the most normal thing somebody can thing! Even immigrants in Germany tend to form commounities until today.... and a Slav settler... who was in war with the local.... settled down inside a a local village and not in his own village?! Quite weird... "I dont think you can prove by showing us the present situation, that very much probably is a product of present political events, the purity of a region. " ----------------------------------------- I believe I can if I take under consideration the posts until now.. . Still waiting something to make me reconsider my thoughts. I'm open... but please... something with logic behind.. "If you want to know exactly...make a dna test. Im sure you will be surprised?" -------------------------------------------------------------- I tell you what; It is more propably to have Persian dna samples than anything else. I'll explain why: It is more propable the soldiers of the 2 big Persian invations to be settled in Macedonia than anybody else. At that time, Macedonia was not a city state. It was more small communities, without racial awarness, without something to belong to. Mostly they played the role of small commounities/colonies of Athenian rulers. Taking the fact that time the invations were like small immigrations, and that all sick soldiers were never going back to the country they started..... most propably they could settle down in Macedonia after the loss of the battle with Atheneans. That sounds more logical than Slavic dna interfereance... ..plus... at least some pure Slavic facial characteristics would have survived..... For sure, the last thing you can say Greeks are talls,blonds with blue eyes, very white sking and cheek-bones Come on Kastoriane.. you can do better. I accept the possibility of Persian dna... I could be justified.. but the Slavic or Armenian or Kirgisian or whatever... it's not justified in our discussion.. yet. So... lets continue
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 24, 2008 12:51:34 GMT -5
Toscalicou "The settled knights were probably not average villagers but most probably land owners." ------------------------------------------------------ A good possibility. But the elite,,, never intermix with the poor locals. So... intermarriages are not the case. Also, foreign elite always have bad times during uprisings. They're the first to go.. Plus the fact that we have no Knight findings in Macedonia like houses, castles etc etc like they have in Rhodos island. So..racial purity for the ones who declare Macedonians remains
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 24, 2008 12:57:50 GMT -5
Ioan, yes I know there were many Armenians in Greece. They were the first who were accepted among the "foreigners". Even today I know many Armenians. But... they know they're Armenians... and we know too. They dont say we're Macedonians or Thessalians or whatever. They say... we're Armenians. We used to call them "O Armenis". That was a distinction again for "our ratsa". It was "them".. not "us" So... racial purity for the ones who declare Macedonians remains... As for the Cumans, they came in extremly small number in Macedonia and mainly in Thessaloniki as Ottoman service men. The moment Ottomans left.. they followed with the exchange of population. So again.. racial purity for the ones who declare Macedonians remains...
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Post by Kassandros on Oct 24, 2008 13:02:16 GMT -5
Rex "during turkish rule in my area and others ...many of the villages/towns had their able men do army time ...and sometimes very long time 2,6.8 and even 12 if you had no connections .....what this did is create a vacuum for farm workers in towns thus bringing in many slavs as workers and then eventually moving into town ... thats why and how you get em" ---------------------------------------------- ok.. lets take that.
Move your example to a Macedonian village and tell me how you imagine it... with Macedonian villagers.
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ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 24, 2008 13:04:49 GMT -5
But the Armenians around Plovdiv (the Paulicians) were bulgarized, it is attested in alot of sources. Most probably alot of Thracians in northeast Greece were hellenized. There are alot of documents that talk about SETTLEMENTS in Greece, Bulgaria and the whole of the Balkans. Later those tribes disapear assimilated by the surrounding majority, leaving just place names etc. Also in 16-19 century Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians etc lived in one town or village. But of course you are free to think otherwise.
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