|
Post by Duke John on Jun 24, 2008 4:35:44 GMT -5
Toskali well said man! bravo! sometimes they forget about their selfs.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jun 24, 2008 5:13:41 GMT -5
The Albanians are as Illyrian as the modern Greeks are ancient Greek.
|
|
|
Post by Arxileas on Jun 24, 2008 5:35:05 GMT -5
I am just waiting to see when Toskali will finish editing his last post....Next week maybe ? Keeps adding to it ;D
.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 5:37:50 GMT -5
^ Ahh ok what ever Back on topic On the Albanian Claim that they have Illyrian names today ISBN 960-210-279-9 Miranda Vickers, The Albanians Chapter 9. "Albania Isolates itself" page 256 In page 271 it is stated
From time to time the state gave out lists with pagan ,supposed Illyrian or newly constructed names that would be proper for the new generation of revolutionaries.(see also Also Logoreci "the Albanians" page 157.
Good one!!
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 5:41:16 GMT -5
The Albanians are as Illyrian as the modern Greeks are ancient Greek. Nope, we have many subtribes in Greece: Lakones (arbanites excluded), Tsakones, Pontians, Cretan, Cypriots, who are DIRECTLY identical to ancient greeks. Other populations (epirotes, roumeliotes, thesaloi, mekedone - pontians excluded), where the population is highly greek but not entirely , like Crete or Mani. On the other hand, Illirians left no substantial traces/monuments/scripts, hence very hard to compare with anything.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jun 24, 2008 6:22:54 GMT -5
thats what you think..
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 6:47:30 GMT -5
I have lived 7 years in Crete. You?
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jun 24, 2008 6:51:02 GMT -5
0, still I seem to know it better. Why is that?
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 6:55:12 GMT -5
Intuition is a must in this kind of research kastoriane. And proof on the actual ground as well. Everything in todays Greece, worth of dealing with is from Crete, even our modern greek language is modeled after the cretan grammar/syntax.
A little respect to this great land - CRETE. The most vivid, example of living greek civilization. If only all places in Greece were like Crete.
P.S. It would be very interesting to build the profile of the Greek people (most probably vlahs or arbs) who downlook Crete. Very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jun 24, 2008 7:00:29 GMT -5
I have great respect for Crete.
Just dont tell me they have never had any contact with alien peoples like Arabs, Turks.... and even Phoenicians in ancient times. And the same goes for Cypriots, just in a much greater extent.
Just forget the "directly identical" theory...its implausible.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 7:27:48 GMT -5
Crete is a very liberal place (also that applies to women as well), very open, etc... Many germanics, and vlahs from Greece, and others went there and they became CRETAN.
I had a German professor in University, married with a Cretan woman, who had become Cretan!! even his accent! One could take him for Anogianos! Only the gun was not there!
So, in Crete there were no other languages than Greek, unlike the rest of Greece. And this was a cultural victory and not a combat victory.
So, the Cretans may have married with germans/swedish/arabs/etc... but the Cretan culture (= Ancient greek culture) is there, vivid and shining.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on Jun 24, 2008 7:37:13 GMT -5
ok thats something else i thought you meant identical by blood.
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Jun 24, 2008 7:46:22 GMT -5
Luma,
what toskali said was half right...the church is what prevented the pagan ways of hellenism and thus had a direct affect in naming their children. That being said...everything else is pure speculation.
Now why would you guys have names after homeric works ? I dont see the relation ? Anyway, I would highly suggest you guys stop with the notion that you were " always " here.
Right now the only ppl in the balkans that actually SPEAK a LANGUAGE that was around for over 2 millenia is us. That pretty much says it all...
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on Jun 24, 2008 11:18:17 GMT -5
Yeah, If anyone goes to the Museum of Ioannina, he can see all the omens, and even understand a great deal of them. That happens as expatriot said, only with Greeks. No other nation in the balkans can go that far in the past as far as written docs and lang are concerned.
|
|
libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
|
Post by libofsha on Jun 24, 2008 13:09:08 GMT -5
Luma, what toskali said was half right...the church is what prevented the pagan ways of hellenism and thus had a direct affect in naming their children. That being said...everything else is pure speculation. Now why would you guys have names after homeric works ? I dont see the relation ? Anyway, I would highly suggest you guys stop with the notion that you were " always " here. Right now the only ppl in the balkans that actually SPEAK a LANGUAGE that was around for over 2 millenia is us. That pretty much says it all... modern greek? hardly, your language is an extensively watered down version flimsily based on ancient greek, don't fool youself, modern greek, like your gene pool, has been so mixed its unrecognizable
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 24, 2008 14:06:52 GMT -5
Luma, what toskali said was half right...the church is what prevented the pagan ways of hellenism and thus had a direct affect in naming their children. That being said...everything else is pure speculation. Now why would you guys have names after homeric works ? I dont see the relation ? Anyway, I would highly suggest you guys stop with the notion that you were " always " here. Right now the only ppl in the balkans that actually SPEAK a LANGUAGE that was around for over 2 millenia is us. That pretty much says it all... modern greek? hardly, your language is an extensively watered down version flimsily based on ancient greek, don't fool youself, modern greek, like your gene pool, has been so mixed its unrecognizable Libofsha, First of all you appear to be new here and just wanted to welcome you. I also wanted to confront your previous statement where you claim that the Greek genepool is diluted and the Greek language is flimsily based on ancient Greek. Please give me one nation or ethnic group that has never been diluted with outside influence and one language that has purity in syntax. If you can? Albanian is not one of them so please don't mention anything about them. Also what do you expect from Greece and its people? Why are you so critical of a nation and people that have been the producers of Western Civilization? Greece is located on the Med. in between Europe, Asia and Africa. What makes you think that the demographics vary that greatly from ancient times? Don't you think that even in ancient times Greece was a very diluted area ethnically? Isn't it common knowledge that "GREEK" is not a race but a conglomeration of all those people who came before us who had Greek culture and spoke the Hellenic dialect? There is definitive continuity between ancient and modern Greek. Aristotle could pick up a modern newspaper in Athens and with little difficulty read and understand the majority of what is written in it. This should fascinate you as it has most of the world but what does an Albanian like you know? By the way I wanted to also just let you know that I am flattered that you have been spending time in the Greek forum. Surely you must admire us or envy us and I say that because you have no other reason to be here. I am guessing envy because you have yet to say anything good about us. Best regards to you!!!
|
|
libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
|
Post by libofsha on Jun 24, 2008 16:10:09 GMT -5
modern greek? hardly, your language is an extensively watered down version flimsily based on ancient greek, don't fool youself, modern greek, like your gene pool, has been so mixed its unrecognizable Libofsha, First of all you appear to be new here and just wanted to welcome you. I also wanted to confront your previous statement where you claim that the Greek genepool is diluted and the Greek language is flimsily based on ancient Greek. Please give me one nation or ethnic group that has never been diluted with outside influence and one language that has purity in syntax. If you can? Albanian is not one of them so please don't mention anything about them. Also what do you expect from Greece and its people? Why are you so critical of a nation and people that have been the producers of Western Civilization? Greece is located on the Med. in between Europe, Asia and Africa. What makes you think that the demographics vary that greatly from ancient times? Don't you think that even in ancient times Greece was a very diluted area ethnically? Isn't it common knowledge that "GREEK" is not a race but a conglomeration of all those people who came before us who had Greek culture and spoke the Hellenic dialect? There is definitive continuity between ancient and modern Greek. Aristotle could pick up a modern newspaper in Athens and with little difficulty read and understand the majority of what is written in it. This should fascinate you as it has most of the world but what does an Albanian like you know? By the way I wanted to also just let you know that I am flattered that you have been spending time in the Greek forum. Surely you must admire us or envy us and I say that because you have no other reason to be here. I am guessing envy because you have yet to say anything good about us. Best regards to you!!! i'm not here to embark on an anti greek tirade mate, i just stated smth which is logically deducted, but foremostly is historically founded, the ancient helens were a mighty civilisation, and i am honoured that my ancestors were enriched by their culture however i have my own distinctive cultural identity which i am proud of and when i see greek fanatics insult it or attempt to undermine it, i feel like i need to dish out a few truths about your murky not so impeccable past and there are many, i have to congratulate you on your somewhat brave assessement of greek geneology, because many of you claim racial purity and believe you are the unbridled blood lineage of the helens, that is not the case, the sooner you come to terms with that the sooner the realisation will set in, i do not get why everytime there is a sensitive topic at hand you feel compelled to list out the achievements of the ancient greeks...when we have already established, admittedly by you, that you may very well not be the actual true descendants of the fair skinned, tall, limber helens, to me you guys are clutching at straws because since ancient times you went into oblivion and lost continuity, among other things the old language as well, and try desperataly to establish some connection simply because you guys are the current dwellers of the ancient land, by that token the current inhabitans of egypt have as much right to claim heritage of the ancient as you do to the old greeks, however that is neither here nor there, there is no definite lineage, there is however a myth and a set of over inflated fabricated claims since the post indendance wave of crippling nationalism, when you started to change the names of places, names of people, assimilated the arvanites through a ruthless and bloody campaign of identity assassination, you started to forge false territorial claims by downplaying the albanian heritage and refusing to acknowledge the major role we had on your fight from freedom, greek modern history my friend is a farse and travesty to balcans history, the truth will come out and deep down you guys know it, many revereed acadamics kno this that is why many greek claims in recent memory have been outrightly rubbished, by comparison albanians, in various studies conducted, are he least polluted race in the balcans, now that is down to many factors to that but it is understandibly attributed to the rough and rugged landscape which didn't favour movement of people and mixing of blood, that coupled with the uncompromising tribal mentality has contributed to a far purer genome make up compared to greece which was a routeway to many civilisations, also our language is undisputedly polluted for most parts of alb territories but there are many regions where it is well preserved i.e. north of albania where the dialect is a lot more raw and unpolished and they still use words which in modern alb have been made obsolite, to finish up, i am not jealous of greeks dude, however i do feel a mild antipathy but i cannot not deny the cultural affinity, i will always stand up for who i am and will tolerate nothing less than respect for who we are as people and if someone suggest otherwise i will retaliate as the situation may warrant.
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 24, 2008 16:21:21 GMT -5
"to finish up, i am not jealous of greeks dude, however i do feel a mild antipathy but i cannot not deny the cultural affinity, i will always stand up for who i am and will tolerate nothing less than respect for who we are as people and if someone suggest otherwise i will retaliate as the situation may warrant."
So your anti-Hellenism is induced by retaliatory motivation? That does not sound like a good way to base an argument. Obviously your motivation, bias and anger has clouded your judgment and ability to produce a formidable argument.
I also thought I would just make my position a little bit more clear to you since you seemed to have missed it. You referred to "tall, blond and limber Greeks?" My stance and opinion which can be backed up numerous sources supports the idea that ancient Greece was made up of many different tribes of Hellenic and Greek speaking tribes. This is fact and was just curious where do these facts signify that the ancient Greeks were ethnically pure?
|
|
|
Post by panagiotopoulos on Jun 24, 2008 16:32:56 GMT -5
Those various tribes that I have mentioned are my compatriots ancestors more so than anyone else in the Balkans. I am very proud of that fact. So if we go with your argument who Albanians descended from you are no more than an illiterate, mountain dwelling vlacho, that didnt learn to read or write until 100 years ago (although this is not my personal opinion, but the opinion of world historians). I do not care enough about Albanian people to entertain anything concerning your history, no offense. I WOULD CHOOSE MY GREEK DESCENT ANY DAY NO MATTER HOW IMPURE YOU CLAIM WE MAY BE.
Best regards to you.
|
|
libofsha
Amicus
socially inept village idiot who is having a meltdown daily
Posts: 611
|
Post by libofsha on Jun 24, 2008 17:04:54 GMT -5
So your anti-Hellenism is induced by retaliatory motivation? That does not sound like a good way to base an argument. Obviously your motivation, bias and anger has clouded your judgment and ability to produce a formidable argument. i spit in the face of flase claim and bearing false witness mate, epitomised by modern greece, therein lies my disdain for perpertrators of the web of deceit, i could never be anti-hellenic, i am however anti-perso spin off spwan right, but not quite a melting pot is it? for them to be predominantly described broadly as such.
|
|