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Post by greek1234 on Nov 21, 2007 0:52:52 GMT -5
"There is an Illyrian myth, with which Albanian culture has been flirting for at least 150 years, and as a myth it can't be questioned (for it has all the answers). There is also a very tentative Illyrian science, based mainly on archaeology, and on some data transmitted by Ancient Greek and Latin Historians.
These inscriptions, being totally alien to Albanian, show that the Illyrian question is extremely complicated, and that it isn't likely to be resolved, unless fundamental epigraphic discoveries are made.
The great Illyrologist Hans Krahe himself was no supporter of the Illyrian theory about the origin of Albanians. In his late years he came to understand that most of his paleolinguistic theories were generally wrong. Krahe started by finding Illyrian traces everywhere in Europe, but then it was made clear that all he had found were Indo-European traces -- and nobody had any doubt that Indo-European tribes had been in Europe for a long many years.
Onomastics is of no great help in settling linguistic and ethnogenetic issues. Let's have a look at some important place names in Albanian territories, like Dajti, Shkodra, Durresi, Vlora, Burreli, Drini, Shkumbini, Tirana, etc. Are they Albanian? We can't say that, for there are no Albanian words that would explain them (as we explain, for example, Kruja with "krue" - fountain).
This might well be true, but seems pathetic in front of the fact that we can't explain through Albanian words the place names we currently use, let alone the Illyrian ones. So what?
Let's move up in time, and reach the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the Albanians were somewhere there, though their first mention is in the 11th century (or 12th, I'm not sure). Where were they living? Where are the places they have named after their common words (technically called appellatives)? The south is full -- literally full -- of Slavic place names, especially the areas of Vlora, Tepelena, Skrapar, Mallakaster, Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism."
By Ardian Vehbiu (An Albanian)
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 21, 2007 0:58:22 GMT -5
"The Albanian language, a hybrid between Illyrian, Thracian, Latin, Slavic, Turkish, and other elements, reflects the ethnically composite origin of the Albanians." By Carleton Stevens Coon from "The Races of Europe" That's ok It only proves my point of Albanians still speaking a form of ancient Pelasgian. BTW...look what you said about Greece...lololol.. I believe the Pelasgians where a type of proto Greeks who influenced the Greek language and culture. I read once they where one of the four great Mediterranean tribes who colonized southern Europe, the same author stated they were related to the Iberians and among other Southern European people. They helped develope the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations along with the Hittites, Phoenicians, Egyptians and among others. He also stated they had North West African origins. .
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 21, 2007 1:03:00 GMT -5
Albanians were not even around they came from east Anatolia. The Slavs eventually caused the whole of the population to dissapear. How can you be a Pelasgian or speak Pelasgian?
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 21, 2007 1:05:42 GMT -5
"Illyrians (with their less fortunate fellows, the Pelasgians) are a pure creation of Albanian romanticism."
By Ardian Vehbiu (An Albanian)"
And?? This proves anything? lol..just like Coon, and Arxhilaeous's citations, none of them show proof or evidence that what they say is based on reality that can be measured and repeated by other scholars. That's the ultimate gates of fire test for all who make claims one way or the other. So, as I claim a theory so are Arxh's authors, and this author you post above. Show us the proof that Albanians are not of Pelasgian origin. Something we can measure and touch. Otherwise, what we have in our lands, culture, traditions, language, names and history is the stuff of proof based in reality which can be measured and connected by third parties and repeated, as with all other scientific discoveries.
"How can you be a Pelasgian or speak Pelasgian?"
Because we have defined connections to the ancient people's tongues spoken in our lands and all the traditions they followed. There is no written or carved out stone to tell the world of the Albanians migrating from any part of this world. Those are ruminations of propagandists who decided to become enemies of the great Albanian Pelasgian people. The true people who kept the original faith and word from God.
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 21, 2007 1:08:16 GMT -5
This shows pefectly the Albanian identity. They live on a lie and when they cannot except the truth the develop a Paranoia. Pathetic.
P.S You didnt answer my questions...
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 21, 2007 1:13:34 GMT -5
"This shows pefectly the Albanian identity. They live on a lie and when they cannot except the truth the develop a Paranoia. Pathetic."
This could easily be describing the Greeks or the modern Turks who try to claim descent from the Trojans. lolol Or the Macedonian Slavs or Serbs/Bosnians/Croats who think they descend from us. lolol
Otherwise, don't waste our time. Show us the PROOF that Albanians are not of Pelasgian origin. You already foolhardily called our language a mixture of Thracian, Illyrian, etc..lol Prove to us the opposite if you want us to believe it.
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 21, 2007 1:25:23 GMT -5
" This could easily be describing the Greeks or the modern Turks who try to claim descent from the Trojans. lolol Or the Macedonian Slavs or Serbs/Bosnians/Croats who think they descend from us. lolol Otherwise, don't waste our time. Show us the PROOF that Albanians are not of Pelasgian origin. You already foolhardily called our language a mixture of Thracian, Illyrian, etc..lol Prove to us the opposite if you want us to believe it. That was quite funny ;D hi hi hi. Back to reality now honey
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Post by Niklianos on Nov 21, 2007 22:12:36 GMT -5
What all of the Greek posters are missing is that all those NON GREEK writers are saying the same thing. The Pelasgian was the ancient NAME of the people who dwelt in the regions of ancient Greece, Western Turkey, and in the Balkans generally. And, the fact that the Hellenes were just another tribe of the Pelasgians, who later grew to dominate the southern Pelops. Dodona in Epirus was Pelasgian in origin and this gave birth to the Ancient Greek worship of Zeus and Apollo. I put to you that Greek is just one part of the Pelasgian Legacy left to Antiquity and any historian worth his name cannot deny the Albanian roots to the same Pelasgian group of tribes, Nation/Ethnicity/Language/customs/religion etc. "A History of Greece: From the Earliest Times to the Roman Conquest, with Supplementary Chapters .. by Sir William Smith - 1855 p.12-13 "The Pelasgians were divided into several tribes, such as the Hellenes, Leleges, and others.." "The Pelasgians are represented by the Greeks...." History of Classical Literature By Robert William Browne p. 40 "Doubtless the Pelasgians were a civilized and peaceful race, whilst the Hellenes were a warlike and conquering people; both sprang from one common origin; and their languages were sufficiently similar, so that when the races lived together as conquering and subject people, they were capable of amalgamation, in the process of reconstruction formed the Greek language in the earliest state in which it was applied to literature.' " However, none of the above writers show the proof that the other Pelasgian tribes were 'amalgamated' into one Hellenic tribe. Because logic tells us that if this were true, the "Greeks" (city states) would not have been at each other's throats and trying to conquer each other if they all came the from ONE seed/ONE root. Also, if it is true that Alexander were ethnically "Greek" or "Hellene", why would the Greeks of the south wage war with him when they knew his goal was to 'spread Helenism" to the barbarians of the east and conquer Persia. Forever settling the question of security for the Greeks and immortality? Right, they waged war because they knew he was NOT an ethnic "Hellene" of the Hellenic tribe of Pelasgia. He was a barbarian of the north in a region called Amadhia. Hardly a Greek or Hellenic term, ancient or modern. I appreciate what you are saying but where have you seen these sources mention that the Albanian people are beyond doubt the descendants of the Illyrians AND that the Illyrians were Pelasgians? The Illyrians were believed to be late comers to the region so how are they connected to the Pelasgians? This is not an attack just a curious Archaeologist who wants to learn more!
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 22, 2007 2:46:18 GMT -5
"I appreciate what you are saying but where have you seen these sources mention that the Albanian people are beyond doubt the descendants of the Illyrians AND that the Illyrians were Pelasgians? "
That was my point. These same sources do not prove their case either way that Pelasgians disappeared or were amalgamated into the Hellenes, as evidence of other tribes existing north of Peloponessus. The claims in those photo'd excerpts merely prove the authors' conjecture or rather fantasy they like to believe existed in that time. The same can be said of their opinions of the Illyrians and the Albanian people. They offer nothing in terms of hard evidence to prove their 'conjectures".
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Post by ahristos on Nov 22, 2007 11:19:46 GMT -5
thoze mustaphas call them selfs pelasgians and ilirians haha muhamedians albs go to scool
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 22, 2007 13:11:16 GMT -5
Aristos, time for you to forgive your ancestral Barbarians of the north and the Albanians who ruled your mountain village of goat herders. Put aside your 'player hating' and accept who you are, who gave birth to your bloodline. Also, don't hate us just cuz we were successful at exposing the lies of "Greek" manipulators of history during the dark ages. You always knew that TRUTH will see the light of day and will stand the test of time. ;D
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2007 13:16:02 GMT -5
Barbarians of the north and the Albanians Synonyms ... (another Greek word) ;D
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 22, 2007 13:22:05 GMT -5
Barbarians of the north and the Albanians Synonyms ... (another Greek word) ;D[/quote] Barbarians/Albanians, conquerors of Greece and Persia and Porus's empire, 325BC. Creators of the word Empire... www.argjiro.net/fjalor/www.argjiro.net/fjalor/Latin..Imperator,imperium, from imperâre=to command. Empire=perdandori (alb)
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 22, 2007 15:43:17 GMT -5
Ok, let's continue with antique authors. Herodotus: LVIII. But the Hellenic stock, it seems clear to me, has always had the same language since its beginning;
So, Hellenic stock had the same language since its beginning
....yet being, when separated from the Pelasgians,
OK, so they were same stock and separated...
few in number, they have grown from a small beginning to comprise a multitude of nations, chiefly because the Pelasgians and many other foreign peoples united themselves with them. Before that, I think, the Pelasgic stock nowhere increased much in number while it was of foreign speech. I need an interpretation here! Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War II. For instance, it is evident that the country now called Hellas had in ancient times no settled population; on the contrary, migrations were of frequent occurrence, the several tribes readily abandoning their homes under the pressure of superior numbers. [2] Without commerce, without freedom of communication either by land or sea, cultivating no more of their territory than the exigencies of life required, destitute of capital, never planting their land (for they could not tell when an invader might not come and take it all away, and when he did come they had no walls to stop him), thinking that the necessities of daily sustenance could be supplied at one place as well as another, they cared little for shifting their habitation, and consequently neither built large cities nor attained to any other form of greatness. He continues: [6] And here is no inconsiderable exemplification of my assertion, that the migrations were the cause of there being no correspondent growth in other parts. The most powerful victims of war or faction from the rest of Hellas took refuge with the Athenians as a safe retreat; and at an early period, becoming naturalized, swelled the already large population of the city to such a height that Attica became at last too small to hold them, and they had to send out colonies to Ionia. Before the Trojan war there is no indication of any common action in Hellas, [2] nor indeed of the universal prevalence of the name; on the contrary, before the time of Hellen, son of Deucalion, no such appellation existed, but the country went by the names of the different tribes, in particular of the Pelasgian. It was not till Hellen and his sons grew strong in Phthiotis, and were invited as allies into the other cities, that one by one they gradually acquired from the connection the name of Hellenes; though a long time elapsed before that name could fasten itself upon all. [3] The best proof of this is furnished by Homer. Born long after the Trojan war, he nowhere calls all of them by that name, nor indeed any of them except the followers of Achilles from Phthiotis, who were the original Hellenes: in his poems they are called Danaans, Argives, and Achaeans. He does not even use the term barbarian, probably because the Hellenes had not yet been marked off from the rest of the world by one distinctive appellation. [4] It appears therefore that the several Hellenic communities, comprising not only those who first acquired the name, city by city, as they came to understand each other, but also those who assumed it afterwards as the name of the whole people, were before the Trojan war prevented by their want of strength and the absence of mutual intercourse from displaying any collective action. Indeed, they could not unite for this expedition till they had gained increased familiarity with the sea. Tiberius Claudius; “Among these Celts, if the word is to have any significance, even the ‘Achaean’ Greeks, who had established themselves for some time in the Upper Danube Valley before pushing southward into Greece. Yes, the Greeks are comparative newcomers to Greece. They displaced the native Pelasgians ... This happened not long before the Trojan War; the Dorian Greeks came still later - eighty years after the Trojan War.” When were Greeks (Acheans, as Homer uses it) established in the upper Danube?
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Post by Arxileas on Nov 22, 2007 15:50:58 GMT -5
teuta get over it, because your trying to expose the unexposable here. I can't see the Alb connection here with your FYROMian arguments. It does seem that your trying to do just that ? Just face it you've been pretty much owned x-)
Like istor always says. They allll had Greek names, Greek typhoons, Greek ways and campaigned for the Greek cause and were alll proud Greeks.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2007 15:59:50 GMT -5
They try to pick,pick ,pick.... but they are missing substance... Greeks even owned the Romans.....
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Post by albanesehoney on Nov 22, 2007 16:31:42 GMT -5
That's ok Canaris. Being ignored by Greeks is our prime ally in this expose of antiquity and the historians who played up their prejudices against those better than them. Say, isn't Plagiarism and Theft greek words too? Be proud of their real legacy to Mankind. BTW did you watch the History Channel 2 hr doc. on the Trojans? Funny in the end, they went to Albanians in Kosova (they called Serbia) playing the lute and Ceftali and compared their form of oral - song tradition of documenting their history. Funny these historians didn't bother with Greece in their comparison of Oral histories and connecting the Trojans ethnically to modern Greece.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Nov 22, 2007 16:33:57 GMT -5
I just like History! I am simply quoting your historians and asking YOU for interpretation. No to expose Alb. in connection with Pelasgians but to see if Greeks have any connection with it!
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Post by greek1234 on Nov 22, 2007 17:16:42 GMT -5
Stop talking out of your ass...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Nov 22, 2007 18:02:33 GMT -5
Honey..it doesn't matter where they went..... you weren't there... you guys think because you got planted in a certain geographical area you can assume the history that goes with it... Maybe I can go and plant myself in Bethlehem and say I am a descendant of Jesus.... people would would think I am joke.... now people are think you are a joke... This is one of the few times I even bother to read some of your posts... cause I thought you might have changed...
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