Look at the Albanian. He is racist to 'black people' when he is a 'Turkalbanian' Mohammad man. What small war are you insane? Like i said Albanians neither have the technology or the skills to fight. Keep dreaming buddy.
its bad to say racist comments about black people but what are you saying, just because the majority of us are muslim then we are black people? umm WHAT?
and i think you are confusing Turks with Kurds, cuz kurds and those who are mixed with kurds usually look darker
We expelled all Turks after the Greko-Turkish War. How did you stay pure by accepting Islam?
I don't quite understand what you mean by 'pure' -- if it is a religious reference, then that's a subjective opinion typical of a religious fundamentalist.
If you're speaking of 'purity' in the sense that we allegedly mixed with Turks and you didn't: converting to Islam meant we could, as Toskaliku mentioned, move upwards in the hierarchal ladder. The Turks did not need to colonize us, and so, uptil the Tanzimaat reforms of 1830s, Albania had only a minor presence of Turkish garrisons -- most of the local administration and military units were comprised by locals. They (Turkish armies led by Turkish generals) only came occasionally when dissident pashas of local origins started a rebellion, or to quell the risings of the free highlanders.
And so, all Turkish presence was of military nature; there was no influx of colonists with whom we breeded .... the term "turkalvanos" might have confused you in that direction, but that's a perfectly artificial term created to describe the ethnic composition of some of the forces that tried to subdue the Greeks during your revolutin of the 1820s.
On the other hand, predominantly Christian territories contained hostile populations, and so, they were the ones exposed to whatever frequency of colonization there was. In the Balkans, these territories were confined to Bulgaria, present day FYROM and parts of Greece, such as Thrace. Those "Muslims" you speak of, Greek1234, weren't "Turks" but rather Arvanites and Greeks who converted to Islam. Peloponessus had such Muslims in the region of Vardounia. They did give their consent to the rebellion of 1821 and even joined it initially. Thus Ali Farmaki was an adoptive brother of Theodor Kolokotroni. But much of the Greek clergy saw such a development with negative eyes, and so the Muslims of Greece, or the "Turks" if you prefer, were expelled from the lands they had inhabited for centuries.
Albania was so far from central Ottoman control that the Turks had to acknowledge medieval highland law in Albania(ex: Law of Lek) as "unofficial" law. And neither could they ever impose any real taxation. Albanians payed taxes if they wanted to; and if they didnt, the Sultan could do little about it without draining his resources in military expeditions against tribes well secured in the mountains of our homeland.
Not only this, but in order to get these tribes into the Ottoman system, the Sultans created false offices that would make tribal warlords into Ottoman officials. One such office was that of "Deputy of the mountain passes" that was offered to Ali Pasha of Tepelena and his father...
So you can see just how "conquered" Albania was... we acted in most ways independently in most areas and some were entirely independent from Ottoman law and customs. In fact, in regions around north Albania, Albanian tribes would intermarry in religious since tribal relations were considered more important. Thus a Muslim woman would be married to a Catholic man and the child could be raised as inbetween faiths(for instance, he might not be circumcized and might be baptized, but received a Muslim name).
This is just one example of the many many other freedoms we held in that empire...
Yeah sure.... Melty...you were tough scaling the walls of the island of Psara where you helped kill 7 thousand of the inhabitants... how did they reward you with that... left you alone in the highlands...why would they fuk around with a peoples that were their henchmen.... and totally submissive especially after Scani's death why would they screw up the perfect system? They would be crazy to even think about it.... the Arnauts were perfect... like I said before .... ants farming aphids...... and guess who were the aphids?
1. Thanks for the insults Canaris. I dont expect complements from Greeks so I dont find it particularly surprising. 2. I am not to be made to answer for the decisions of my answers, I dont represent them; nor am I some representative of Albania's history. I never intended of my topic on the barbaric crimes of Greek paramilitary units on Albanian civilians to be one where Greeks came to answer themselves. But, if you do need some answers, here:
- Albanians fought the Ottomans when they were at the peak of their games. We, unlike the Greeks, did not fight a bankrupt empire with increasingly more strained resources and manpower and one that was at the mercy of the world powers. No, we fought the empire of Sultan Murad and Mehmet II, when the empire was at its peak. We suffered through 30+ years of warfare, depredation, and destruction. We lost over a 1/4 of our population during these years. Not only this, but Albania was running out of men... yea, it came to the point where Scanderbeg could no longer even receive troops from his lands since they were running out of young man power to fight. What good system? Albania was being destroyed and we didnt have the French and Brits to save Navarino.
And as for being a servant:
He has the traditions of a race which has fought for the Turk as his mercenaries, but has never accepted his domestic rule without protest. An Albanian's sense of honour is not entirely external. He will murder you without remorse if he conceives that you have insulted him — as Turkish officers and Russian consuls have learned to their cost — and if the murderer, a lonely outlaw, should find his way even to a strange and possibly hostile tribe, it will fight to the last man rather than surrender him to the authorities.
It is pretty generally understood in Turkey that it is death to strike an Albanian. But occasionally a Turkish officer forgets himself. A case occurred at Vodena in the summer of 1904, and the whole garrison went into mutiny until it had found and slaughtered the erring lieutenant.
Albanians were mercenaries. There is a difference between a mercenary servant and a servile. Albanians fought for money, it was how they made their living.
Compare that to this to see just how little things changed under the Turks:
The story of the Albanians deserves a study in itself. Attracted by the 'sword, the gold trappings, and the honours', they left their mountains chiefly in order to become soldiers. In the sixteenth century they were to be found in Cyprus, in Venice, in Mantua, in Rome, in Naples, and Sicily, and as far abroad as Madrid, where they went to present their projects and their grievances, to ask for barrels of gunpowder or years of pension, arrogant imperious, always ready for a fight. In the end Italy gradually shut its doors to them. They moved on to the Low Countries, England, and France during the Wars of Religion, soldier-adventurers followed everywhere by there wives, children, and priests.
In becoming mercenaries for the Turks, those Albs were taking part in a tradition we have taken part in since the Byzantine period: mercenarism was one of the privary occupations for an Alb. Look, for instance, at Albs in the Byzantine armies:
Most modern, as well as a good number of early authors have indicated that the stradioti were Albanian. This is true to a certain extent but has to be qualified. A Greek author made a study of the names of stradioti found in the most extensive documentary collection of materials dealing with the stradioti and found that some 80% of the names were of Albanian origin, while the rest were of Greek origin. This writer looked over lists of stradioti in the same source, Mnemeia Hellenikes Historias: Documents inedits a l'histoire de la Grece au Moyen Age, edited by Konstantinos Sathas, as well as the indices of the fifty-odd volumes of I Diarii di Marino Sanuto. This investigation found that indeed many of the names were Albanian, but a good number of the names particularly those of officers, were of Greek origin, such as Palaiologos, Spandounios, Laskaris, Rhalles, Comnenos, Psendakis, Maniatis, Spyliotis, Alexopoulos, Psaris, Zacharopoulos, Klirakopoulos, Kondomitis, etc. Others seemed to be of South Slavic origin, such Soimiris, Vlastimiris, and Voicha. - Nicholas Pappas
Toskaliku is correct. If anyone was a servant, it was the Greek. But this needs to be understood within the right context.
During the Middle Age, the concept of feudalism emerged. One can explain it briefly as following; a group of farmers being landtied, serving a noble/king, giving him a great share of their cropps in exchange for 'protection'. In the Byzantine empire, these type of landtied farmers, or serfs, were called meropah.
The Albanians, however, were predominantly pastoral people, i.e. shepherds. They lived in rugged & mountainous terrains. Although impoverished, they were nonetheless free -- they were not meropah as most Greek and Slav farmers of contemporary times. Being free, however, comes costly; one needs to protect this freedom constantly against intruders, be it rival clans who wanted to steal cattle or nobles who wished to extend their feuds. And so, a martial society came into existance, which shaped our people into a warlike caste renown for being fierce and excellent in arms.
When the Ottomans came, they did not introduce feudalism; they already found it and inherited it. Only the terms changed; meropah became ciftci. And so, the Greeks of Greece continued practicing the same servile lifestyle they had been used to prior to Ottoman arrival. Whereas Albanians converted to Islam for that precise reason; to maintain their former status as free men, maintain their privilege as arm-bearers and sought mercenaries who fought for payment. This had been our profession before the Ottoman arrival as well; it was the very reason why the Arbëror (Arvanites) came to Greece; local nobles invited them, giving them free arable lands in exchange for their military service. That is why the Arvanites of Greece were always the most free, warlike and proud people in all of the country; they had inherited the ways of their medieval ancestors.
The Greek farming class was characterized by a life of servitude, working the land of some wealthy landowner (aga) who in all sense but officially owned those who worked for him. Whereas the relation between Albanians and the Porte was that of a partnership: free status and gold coins in exchange for muscles. Nothing servile there; quite on the contrary, the Turks oftenly saw alot of complications with Albanian mercenaries and their hot temper. I once met a Palestinian woman of Albanian descent. When we asked her about how this was possible, she said her greatgrandfather had been a soldier in the Ottoman army. One day his superior offended his mother, and was subsequently killed. The Albanian fled to Syria where he settled; his descendants would become Arabicized and later marry some Palestinian refugee. But the woman had preserved the memory of her origins with pride.
You can accuse those Albanian warriors of alot of things; being imprudent, hot-tempered, murderous, robbers. But they had a code of honor; they did not kill women and children, and although seemingly indifferent to calm and order, they were forced to comply to a vaste series of rules the code of honor prescribed. AND they were anything but servile.
never the less meny albs like cams have took fascists side and have terrorise- kill greek population in ww2 so what zervas have do is them sallary he havent make any geneside he has give oportunity or you go or we kill you select one of those and they have deside to go home.. that is the happy end of hollywoodian moovie and from this time and after greeks wash in peace no islamists terror any more
Amazing. After all this time participating in this and the former Illyria forum, one would think that ahristos would have learned atleast to slightly improve his English. Yet it's getting worse by each post. Are we such bad teachers?
A most sincere question to those Greeks of this forum who know how to speak and read Greek; while reading ahristos' posts in Greek, does he make just as little sense as when he writes in English? Or is there some sign of a intelligent presence, regardless of how low, in what he writes? Thanks.