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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 17, 2008 21:47:37 GMT -5
The Serbs who believe in "Greater Serbia" believe that foreign governments (i.e. that aren't Serb dominated governments) care little if at all for Serbs (and are likely to persecute Serbs as most if not all foreign governments have done to date in the Balkans) and believe that only a strong Serbia can keep Serbs (outside of what is now considered Serbia) safe. As we can see from recent "activities" in and around Kosovo, Dalmatia, Vukovar, Srebrenica and Sarajevo (among other places), Serb civilians have been persecuted, tortured and slaughtered en masse by non-Serb governments so Serb fears of foreign dominance/persecution is not unfounded.
But why do non-Serbs fear "Greater Serbia"? Since 1990 (or any time for that matter), no Slovene, Croat, Muslim, Shqiptar or Gypsy (or any other member of an ethnic group that is not related to Serbs) has left Serbia because they felt persecuted or were forced out by the ruling establishment. Serbia (unlike all other socalled "co-belligerents" in the war in Yugoslavia) accepted all refugees and wounded soldiers regardless of what their ethnicity or religion is/was.
Obviously the tolerant and multicultural Serbia should be preferable to non-Serbs other than (the Republic of) Croatia or (the Federation of) Bosnia and Herzegovina which has either organized or turned a blind eye towards crimes committed against minorities or (the Republic of) Albania which has funded or turned a blind eye towards the funding of terrorist organizations which have caused wars in two neighbouring states and committed atrocities against civilians.
Though, think about this: Had Serbs not fought for a "Greater Serbia" from 1914 until 1918 then Yugoslavia would have never been created so if another Yugoslavia were to ever emerge, all non-Serbs will see it as an attempt to create a "Greater Serbia". And had Serbs not fought for a "Greater Serbia" from 1941 until 1945 then the Axis wouldn't have called off their invasion of the USSR for 3 vital weeks and Serbs in Krajina/Bosnia would be extinct.
If anything, the ideal of "Greater Serbia" is something that all non-Serbs should be fighting for, not against.
Definitely food for thought.
Update: Fixed the title.
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Post by ilirdardani on Nov 17, 2008 21:55:55 GMT -5
I stopped reading when I got there, which automatically makes it a bad article, or whatever it is.
Not worth reading it.
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Post by raynon on Nov 17, 2008 22:30:17 GMT -5
If anything, the ideal of "Greater Serbia" is something that all non-Serbs should be fighting for, not against. Definitely food for thought. Yeh, the whole wide world, including all Muslim Bosnians and Catholic Croatians and all Albanians, supports a 'greater serbia'.... somewhere in their mother russia's vast siberian emptiness .. ;D
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Nov 17, 2008 22:46:36 GMT -5
I stopped reading when I got there, which automatically makes it a bad article, or whatever it is. Not worth reading it. Yeah as soon as i got there ... i tuned out. The Hague indictments against Seselj for example say otherwise.
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Post by kapetan on Nov 17, 2008 23:16:15 GMT -5
Lol before you post an article at least make sure it's not laughable.
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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 17, 2008 23:24:34 GMT -5
Yeah as soon as i got there ... i tuned out. The Hague indictments against Seselj for example say otherwise. Show me where and when people acting on orders from Seselj (a man who briefly held power in 1999) organized attacks against ethnic/religious minorities in Serbia. Lol before you post an article at least make sure it's not laughable. First they ridicule... Though the reason why no one (save Cikola) has attempted to seriously refute a single thing I have written is because its all factual.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Nov 17, 2008 23:33:49 GMT -5
Has the fight for a greater serbia been worth it so far? From a Serb perspective?
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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 17, 2008 23:41:00 GMT -5
Has the fight for a greater serbia been worth it so far? From a Serb perspective? "Greater Serbia" doesn't exist from a Serb perspective. Virtually no Serb soldiers from 1914, 1941 or 1991 fought to extend Serbia's borders. I was writing from a non-Serb's perspective when I asked why so many non-Serbs were afraid of "Greater Serbia". But to rephrase your question: Have the wars that were fought in 1914, 1941 and 1991 been worth it? From a Serb perspective? The only alternative of war (particularly in 1914. 1941 and 1991) for Serbs has always been subjection/extinction.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Nov 18, 2008 0:05:46 GMT -5
no Serb soldiers 1991 fought to extend Serbia's borders
what planet are u living on?
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tyson
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Post by tyson on Nov 18, 2008 0:59:13 GMT -5
serbs in places like vukovar might not feel welcome by their croat neighbors, but thats because majority of them supported the war for greater serbia in croatia's eastern slavonia, and supported their warmongering leaders like seselj, arkan, goran hadzic, slavko dokmanovic, miroslav radic, zivota panic, mile mrksic & veselin sljivancanin. after the war is finished, the serbs there havnt changed their attitude. they still support what happened in the war, and still support these criminals.
maybe if the serbs there never supported milosevic and the rsk establishment, and wanted to live peacefully in co-existance inside croatia, then there wouldnt be any anomisity towards serbs.
for egsample, some serbs were against the RSK and were loyal citizens to the republic of croatia. those serbs were the serbs of ogulin and gorski kotar. at the beigining of the war, the rsk leadership tried to get these serbs to join their rebelion. they came and gave them arms, and the local serbs handed them to the croatian army. their loyalty has been rewarded, and thats why to this day, serbs and croats from ogulin and gorski kotar live peacefully in co-existance together. no serbian orthodox churches or serb properties in this area were touched. the peoples there live like one community.
and thats how it couldve been in places like vukovar, but serbs from there dug their own grave, and now they have to lay in it.
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Post by SKORIC on Nov 18, 2008 1:18:36 GMT -5
^ Yeh mate tell that to my family friend who lost almost 2 dozen family and friends to Croats before the Serb army even got to Vukovar.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Nov 18, 2008 2:14:45 GMT -5
But wait. Every time I talk to you about Serbia in the 1990's, you claim that it wasn't Serbia, but rather Yugoslavia. Right? I mean, hell, those bastard Pro-Yugoslavs should die for tarnishing Serbia's good name.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Nov 18, 2008 2:15:03 GMT -5
serbs from there dug their own grave, and now they have to lay in it.
That can also be said about the idea of a greater serbia. The more they strive for it ... the more they dig their own graves.
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Post by kapetan on Nov 18, 2008 2:17:41 GMT -5
People like Serbatron arent Serbs. Better yet they're not even people. They're just dirty fuckin' chetniks. There is no point talking to them. Even if you have them beat in an argument you can't win cu he's a dirty fuckin' chetnik.
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CiKoLa
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Post by CiKoLa on Nov 18, 2008 2:21:40 GMT -5
"Greater Serbia" is something that all non-Serbs should be fighting for, not against.
he needs a prize for that warped logic.
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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 18, 2008 2:44:11 GMT -5
what planet are u living on? Earth. You? serbs in places like vukovar might not feel welcome by their croat neighbors, but thats because majority of them supported the war for greater serbia in croatia's eastern slavonia, and supported their warmongering leaders like seselj, arkan, goran hadzic, slavko dokmanovic, miroslav radic, zivota panic, mile mrksic & veselin sljivancanin. after the war is finished, the serbs there havnt changed their attitude. they still support what happened in the war, and still support these criminals. for egsample, some serbs were against the RSK and were loyal citizens to the republic of croatia. those serbs were the serbs of ogulin and gorski kotar. at the beigining of the war, the rsk leadership tried to get these serbs to join their rebelion. they came and gave them arms, and the local serbs handed them to the croatian army. their loyalty has been rewarded, and thats why to this day, serbs and croats from ogulin and gorski kotar live peacefully in co-existance together. no serbian orthodox churches or serb properties in this area were touched. the peoples there live like one community. and thats how it couldve been in places like vukovar, but serbs from there dug their own grave, and now they have to lay in it. So basically it is your belief that it is alright to kill civilians if they hold a different opinion than the ruling establishment. maybe if the serbs there never supported milosevic and the rsk establishment, and wanted to live peacefully in co-existance inside croatia, then there wouldnt be any anomisity towards serbs. Maybe if Tudjman hadn't reduced the status of Serbs from equals to minority (i.e. banned Serbian history/culture/language from being taught in schools and installing bigoted fiends into the judicial system to ensure that crimes against Serbs go unpunished) then the war could have been averted. Though when Neoconservative extremists like Tudjman are elected, there is always going to be war. But wait. Every time I talk to you about Serbia in the 1990's, you claim that it wasn't Serbia, but rather Yugoslavia. Right? I mean, hell, those bastard Pro-Yugoslavs should die for tarnishing Serbia's good name. Serbia is Yugoslavia and Yugoslavia is Serbia. The two are inseparable. Though keep in mind that this thread is about "Greater Serbia" (or the lack therefore of) so I used Serbia instead of Yugoslavia but we cant forget that those accused of fighting for "Greater Serbia" have fought for Yugoslavia. People like Serbatron arent Serbs. Better yet they're not even people. They're just dirty f**kin' chetniks. There is no point talking to them. Even if you have them beat in an argument you can't win cu he's a dirty f**kin' chetnik. I'm dirty? You are the one worshipping a religion founded by a paedophilic warmonger.
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Post by zgembo on Nov 18, 2008 3:14:40 GMT -5
^ Yeh mate tell that to my family friend who lost almost 2 dozen family and friends to Croats before the Serb army even got to Vukovar. Where did this happen, Skoric? ------------------------------ Mega, Seselj expelled Croats from Zemun whilst his party was in power (this was done following Krajina 1995 mind you). A lot of Albanians left Serbia for Germany and Switzerland after 1987 claiming persecution. I do understand your point though. Aside from Albanians, who were always irredentist separatists, Serbia has been pretty tolerant of minorities. There are 30 different ethnic groups in Serbia, and Albanians are the only ones who ever could have a legit grievance (and they brought it onto themselves). Nevertheless, a lot of the major minorities in Yugoslavia were soured by Serbian rule during the Kingdom years (1918-1941). Sour feelings from that rule carried over into the civil war during WW2. If non-Serbian minorities could have ever accepted Belgrade or Serbian rule, they lost it at that time.
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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 18, 2008 4:03:07 GMT -5
Mega, Seselj expelled Croats from Zemun whilst his party was in power (this was done following Krajina 1995 mind you). When and how many? A lot of Albanians left Serbia for Germany and Switzerland after 1987 claiming persecution. I meant REAL persecution. The complaints of a few hundred/thousand extremists doesn't compare to the hundreds of thousands who stay, didn't complain and lived productive lives. Nevertheless, a lot of the major minorities in Yugoslavia were soured by Serbian rule during the Kingdom years (1918-1941). Sour feelings from that rule carried over into the civil war during WW2. Only extremists were upset by the pre-1941 Yugoslav leadership and they were only upset because they didn't hold power. If non-Serbian minorities could have ever accepted Belgrade or Serbian rule, they lost it at that time. The Austrians cared people silly into believing the myth of "Greater Serbia" (i.e. that the leadership in Serbia was planning on extending Serbia's borders to include all Serbs living in the Balkans) yet Serbia still won the war and Yugoslavia was born.
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Post by zgembo on Nov 18, 2008 4:25:39 GMT -5
It is ridiculous and fruitless to talk to you.
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Post by Novus Dis on Nov 18, 2008 5:00:34 GMT -5
If you don't wish to debate than don't sign onto a forum and start posting.
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