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Post by SKORIC on Oct 13, 2008 1:04:36 GMT -5
Just leave it guys, the number doesnt matter, but can anyone name a worse genocide that took place in the balkans in the last century? Or ever? Thats all that matters. In my opinion it was the worst in Europe after the Holocaust and Stalins forced famine in Ukraine. (Although i dont believe Stalin wanted to intentionally kill all Ukrainians he could have done so if he wanted to so it technically wasnt a genocide..?)
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Post by Novus Dis on Oct 13, 2008 2:57:54 GMT -5
Just leave it guys, the number doesnt matter, but can anyone name a worse genocide that took place in the balkans in the last century? Or ever? Thats all that matters. In my opinion it was the worst in Europe after the Holocaust and Stalins forced famine in Ukraine. (Although i dont believe Stalin wanted to intentionally kill all Ukrainians he could have done so if he wanted to so it technically wasnt a genocide..?) The numbers do not matter, its the people behind the numbers that matter. Those who reduce the number of victims to 1/10th of its original size are dishonouring the other 9/10ths that also died.
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Post by SKORIC on Oct 13, 2008 3:37:17 GMT -5
Facts about JasenovacLiving conditionsThe living conditions in the camp were extremely severe: a meager diet, deplorable accommodations and cruel behavior by the Ustaše guards. The conditions improved only for short periods during visits by delegations, such as the press delegation that visited in February 1942 and a Red Cross delegation in June 1944. Food: inmates of Jasenovac suffered of horrible malnutrition. The sorts of food they consumed changed during the camp's existence. In camp Brocice, inmates were given a "soup" made of hot water with strach for breakfast, beans for lunch and same for dinner (held in 6:00, 12:00 and 21:00 accordingly). Food in camp nr. III was at first better, potatoes instead of beans, but replaced in January or so to a single daily portion of thin "turnip soup". Food changed again, by the end of that year, to three daily portions of thin gruell made of water and starch.. Food changed again in September 1943, 1944, and in other occasions. Water: Jasenovac was one of the few camps in the holocaust where there was an actual lack of potable water Accomodations: In the first camps, Brocice and Krapje, inmates slept in standart concentration-camp barracks, with bunks in three levels. In camp nr. III, which housed some 3,000 inmates at any given time, inmates initiatly slept in the attics of the workshops, in an open depot assigned as a railway "tunnel" and in the open. Shortly thereafter, eight barracks were erected. Inmates slept in six of these barracks, while the other two used as a "clinic" and "hospital", where ill inmates were concentrated to die or be liquidated. Mass murder and cruelty In the late summer of 1942, tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the Kozara mountain area (in Bosnia) where NDH forces were fighting against Partisans. Most of the men were killed at Jasenovac, the women were sent to forced labor in Germany, and the children were taken from their mothers; some were murdered and others were dispersed to Catholic orphanages. On the night of August 29, 1942, bets were made among the prison guards as to whom could liquidate the largest number of inmates. One of the guards, Petar Brzica reportedly cut the throats of some 1,360 newcommers or so with a butcher knife that became known as srbosjek ("serb-cutter"). The other participants, who admitted the deed to witnesses, were Ante Zrinusic, who killed some 600 inmates and Mile Friganovic, who gave a detail and consistant report of the incident. Friganovic admmitted to have killed some 1,100 people, of which he specificly tortured an old man, Vukasin, in forcing him, to bless Ante Pavelic, which he refused, although Friganovic would cut off his ears, nose and toungue after each refusal, eventually cutting his eyes, tearing his heart and slash his throat. The whole competition was also viewed by witness Dr. Nikola Nikolic. Prisoners remaining in Jasenovac were forced to drink water from the Sava river contaminated with ren (horseradish)Systematic extermination of the victimsBesides sporadic killings and death under poor living conditions, inmates that arrived in Jasenovac were, in a large number of cases, set for systematic extermination, rather than being concentrated and killed thereafter due to health impairment or sporadic killings. An important criteria for this selection was, to begin with, the duration of detention the inmate was doomed for. Inmates who were sentenced to less than 3 years of incarceration passed a selection, and the strong and labor-capable men were kept alive. All inmates sentenced to 3 years or not sentenced at all were taken to liquidation regardless of their fitness. The systematic extermination took place in various forms and in varied locations. Some of the methods were machinic, following the example of their Nazi patrons, while some were "manual". The machinical means of extermination included: Cremation: The Ustase cremated corpses, as well as living inmates, awake or stoned. The first cremations took place in the brick factory ovens as back as January 1942. Engineer Hinko Dominik Picilli further, perfected this method by turning 7 of the kiln's furnace chambers into more sophisticated crematories. Crematories were also placed in Gradina acros the Sava. According to the State-commission, "there is no information that it ever went into operation". But later testimonies say otherwise. In later stages of the war, exhumation of bodies that were killed and buried during the camp's existence was also conducted. Gassing and poisoning: The Ustase, in following the Nazi example, as set in Auschwitz and Sajmiste, tried to utilize poisonous gas to kill inmates that arrived in Stara-Gradiska. They first tried to gas the women and children that arrived from camp Djakovo with gas-vans that Simo Klaic addressed as "green Thomas". The method was later replaced with stationary gas-chambers with Zyklon-B and Sulphur monoxide.Manual methods, the Ustase's favorites, were liquidation that took part in utilizing sharp or blunt craftsmen tools: knives, saws, hammers and et cetera. These liquidations took place in various locations: Granik: Granik was a ramp used to unload goods of Sava boats. In winter 1943-44, season agriculture laborers became unemployed, while large transports of new internees arrived and the need for liquidation, in light of the Axis expected defeat, were large. Therefore, the "Maks" Luburic devised a plan to utilize the crane as a gallow on which slaughter would be committed, so that the bodies could be dumped into the stream of the flowing river. In the autumn, the Ustase NCO's came in every night for some 20 days, with lists of names of people who were incarcerated in the warehouse, stripped, chained, beaten and than taken to the "Granik", where ballasts were tied to the wire that was bent on their arms, and their intestines and neck were slashed, and they were thrown into the river with a blow of a blunt tool in the head. The method was later enhanced, so that inmates were tied in pairs, back to back, their bellies were cut ere they were tossed into the river alive. Gradina: The Ustase utilized empty areas in the vicinity of the villages Donja Gradina and Ustice, where they encircled an area marked for slaughter and mass graves in wire. The Ustase slew victims with knives or smashed their skulls with mallets. When gypsies arrived in the camp, they did not underwent a selection, but were rather concentrated under the open skies at a section of camp known as "III-C". From there the gypsies were taken to liquidation in Gradina, working on the dike (men) or in the corn-fields in Ustice (women) in between liquidations. Thus Gradina and Ustica became Roma mass-grave-sites. furthermore, small groups of gypsies were utilized as gravediggers that actually participated in the slaughter at Gradina. Thus the extermination at the site grew until it became the main killing-ground in Jasenovac. Grave-sites were also located in Ustica and in Draksenic. Mlaka and Jablanac: Two sites used as collection and labor camps for the women and children in camps III and V, but also as places where many of these women and children, as well as other groups, were liquidated at the Sava bank in between the two locations. Velika Kustarica: According to the state-commission, as far as 50,000 people were killed here in the winter amid 1941 and 1942. There are more evidence suggesting that killings took place there at that time and afterwards.End of the campIn April 1945, as Partisan units approached the camp, the Ustaše camp supervisors attempted to erase traces of the atrocities by working the death camp at full capacity. On April 22, 600 prisoners revolted; 520 were killed and 80 escaped. Before abandoning the camp shortly after the prisoner revolt, the Ustaše killed the remaining prisoners, blasted and destroyed the buildings, guard-houses, torture rooms, the "Picili Furnace" and the other structures. Upon entering the camp, the partisans found only ruins, soot, smoke, and dead bodies.During the following months of 1945, the grounds of Jasenovac were thoroughly destroyed by prisoners of war, 200 to 600 Home Guard members captured by the Allied forces. The laborers completed destruction of the camp, leveling the site and dismantling the two-kilometer long, four-meter high wall that surrounded it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_campNumber of victimsThere are various estimates about the number of victims who died in the Jasenovac camp. Estimates range from tens of thousands of deaths, which is the most commonly cited contemporary figure, to hundreds of thousands, which was the most common estimate prior to the 1990s. The estimates vary due to lack of accurate records, the methods used for making estimates and sometimes, due to differing biases of the estimators. Examples of difficulties in compiling accurate counts include: cases where entire families were exterminated with no one left to submit their names to the lists; inclusion of names of people who were killed elsewhere, or who survived but were not heard of, or that were duplicates.Statistical estimatesIn the 1980s, calculations were done independently by Croat economist Vladimir Žerjaviæ and Serb statistician Bogoljub Koèoviæ, who each claimed that total number of victims in Yugoslavia was less than 1.7 million, an official estimate at the time, both concluding that the number of victims was around one million. Žerjaviæ claimed that number of victims in the Independent State of Croatia was between 300,000 and 350,000, including 80,000 victims in Jasnovac, as well as thousands of deaths in other camps and prisons. Koèoviæ, who made an estimate of the total number of victims, accused Žerjaviæ of being motivated by nationalism: Zerjavic relies on the writings of Franjo Tudjman, a Croatian nationalist and holocaust revisionist. In the trail of Dinko Sakic, Zerjavic testified that the number of casualties is 85,000, as did Josip Jurcevcic, Sakic's defence witness. As Sakic, who also claimed no mass-atrocities took place in the camp, was indeed found guilty, Jurcevic testimony on the death rate, as that of Zerjavic, are held as non-reliable. Commentators in Serbia criticized these estimates as too low, since the demographic calculations assumed that the growth rate for Serbs in Bosnia (which was part of the Independent State of Croatia during the war time) was equal to the total growth rate throughout the former Yugoslavia (1.1% at the time). According to Serbian sources, however, the actual growth rate in this region was 2.4% (in 1921-1931) and 3.5% (in 1949-1953). This method is considered very unreliable by critics because there is no reliable data on total births during this period, yet the results depend strongly on the birth rate - just a change of 0.1% in birth rate changes the victim count by 50,000.Logically, the number of casualties in Jasenovac is affected by several factors:the camp's size: Jasenovac was a complex of various camps, including Krapje and Brocice, Ciglana, Stara-Gradiska, Sisak, Djakovo, Jablanac, Mlaka, Draksenic, Gradina and Ustice, Dubica, Kosutarica, Jasenovac's tannery. These camps and mass-grave yards covered 120 square miles. This fact is also important since in the list of names found in the Jasenovac memorial, only 4000 victims are of Stara-Gradiska, which points just how partial the list really is.The length of the camp's existance: Jasenovac stood since mid-August 1941 to May 1945. Mass-extermination took place in mass in the whole of 1941-1942, and again in the second half of 1944. From March to December 1943, a "lull" took place when almost no mass-atrocities took place, whilst death due ot health impairment or in indevidual slaugther (to wit, that any gaurd could kill any inmate at any given time) continued. The camp's classification: besides being a concentration camp, Jasenovac was an extermination camp. For comparison, Belzec and Kulmhof, both small and both existed for a significantly shorter period of time, exterminated over 300,000 and 128,000 accordingly. The camp's population: Jasenovac housed and used as a place of extermination for Serbs, Jews, Roma, Sinti, Slovens and other ethnicities, whereas in all extermination camps only Jews and Roma were exterminated, therefore, the number of casualties should be in accordance. Additionaly, Crematories were constructed in Jasenovac as back as January 1942, due to difficulties of burial, thus implying the massive death rate at hand there. The same goes for gassing that also took place in Stara-Gradiska later that year, in both chambers and vans.Pictureswww.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/85/85196.jpgupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Ustasaguard.jpg/320px-Ustasaguard.jpgwww.deltax.net/bissett/western/victims.jpgcache.virtualtourist.com/3120808-A_child_victim_of_Ustasi_concentraton_kamp-Jasenovac.jpg[/img]i43.photobucket.com/albums/e372/tlthe5th/croatia/priest.jpgwww.etleboro.com/picture_library/jasenovac.jpgetleboro.com/picture_library/jasenovac2.jpgmojasrbija.net/krajina/images/fbfiles/images/633443067735260271_jasenovac2.jpgwww.jasenovac-info.com/cd/galerija/djecakozare/1/26.jpgSo all the Siptars who said its all propaganda while at the same time saying 1999 was so bad should go eat a dick
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Demonel
Amicus
I am Jack's regained insanity.
Posts: 833
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Post by Demonel on Oct 13, 2008 15:00:55 GMT -5
Procitajte knjigu "Ljudolovka Jasenovac" od Zaima Topcica. On je bio u logoras u Jasenovcu i kasnije je napisao knjigu o tome. Knjiga pocinje pricom kako su glavne ustase u logoru ispekle nekoliko zatvorenika i mali dio pojeli dok su ostatak dali logorasima da im "poboljsaju" ishranu.
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Post by Sh1 Shonić on Oct 13, 2008 16:07:39 GMT -5
Srbosjek (knife) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Srbosjek) Jump to: navigation, search The srbosjek was worn over the hand and was used by the Ustaše militia for the quick slaughter of inmates in concentration camps. Srbosjek (literally "Serb cutter" in Croatian and Serbian, often referred to as "cutthroat") was a specially designed knife used by the Ustaše during World War II for the speedy killing of prisoners in the concentration camps of the Nazi-puppet Independent State of Croatia (NDH), most notably the Jasenovac concentration camp. The victims were Serbs, Jews, and Roma, imprisoned on "ethnic" grounds, and significant numbers of Croats, imprisoned on the grounds that they were Partisan resistance members, or on the suspicion of taking part in anti-fascist activities.[1] Preferring to cut the throats of their concentration camp prisoners instead of gassing them, the Ustaše required a special tool. The knife was manufactured during World War II by German factory Gebrüder Gräfrath from Solingen-Widderit under a special order from the NDH government.[2]. Gebrüder Gräfrath was taken over in 1961 by Hubertus Solingen [3]. The upper part of the srbosjek is made of leather, as a sort of*glove, designed to be worn with the thumb going through the hole, so that only the blade protrudes from the hand. It was a curved, 12 cm long knife with the edge on its concave side. The knife was fastened to a bowed oval copper plate, while the plate was fastened to a thick leather bangle. There was inscription "Gräwiso" on the leather part of the knife, and the knife was also known as the "graviso knife" because of this. The blade is curved in order to make it easier to slit the throat of the victim, following the curvature of the neck.[2][4] Thus, the Srbosjek knife was designed to kill as fast as possible and with as little fatigue as possible.[5] In the Jasenovac concentration camp competitions in speedy slaughter were organized by the Ustaše. The winner of one such competition, Petar Brzica slit the throats of 1,360 prisoners and won the competition.[6]
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Post by Ja Ona i Pivo on Oct 13, 2008 16:29:48 GMT -5
Thats SICK!!! I can say i would rather be chased by a taliban/mudjahedin whatevva than a ustasa from ww2
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Post by nogrentain on Mar 5, 2009 2:40:41 GMT -5
Well, the NDH didn't hide it wanted to get rid of all Serbs, so there was a Genocide no doubt, all I am saying is that when in such a context and with inflated numbers, it is only done for the same reasons as I have stated... It would be like teaching a Bosnian 7 year old[referring to that kids learn it in RS, from what srbatron posted] about "250 000" Bosnian Muslim civilians killed...in the last war..... It is not like these things are talked about, and mentioned out of respect for the people who got killed, and it is not like it is done so to teach new generations of Balkan people that Genocide is not such a good thing to do.... The victimization of one self in the Balkans has taken insane dimensions for all the poeples... I would like to point out the following: -The International Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia [no friend of the Serbs] estimated there were 107,000 deaths ---55,261 civilians and 47,360 military--of which were: 60,000 Muslims; 31,000 Serbs and 12,000 Croats. - A multi ethnic team of Bosnians estimate there were approximately 100,000 total deaths [the team could only verify 80,000.] 250 000-300 000 deaths is an absolute lie that everyone but the people commissioned to find the official number agrees with. That the Hague would state something in the 100 000 range for ALL ethnicities, should be clear in its implications to those who inflate the number to claim 300 000 Bosnian Muslims alone were killed.
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