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Post by Kassandros on Dec 12, 2008 12:14:21 GMT -5
Albquietman "How exactly Greece cools down Bollano, because as far as I know Greece is the one that is asking Albania to recognize the Himara region as minority zone. And giving free money to Himariots when thousands of Greeks are in desperate need for them, I don't think it has to do anything with cooling down." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dont confuse things. You know very well when a country wants to create tension can do it in 1 week. Visits of Balano to the Greek Parliament crying for help..... 24 hours in the news showing Bolano crying for the "bad" Albanians..... showing 2-3 VorioIpirots with browses.... and there it is! You know very well how these games can be played. Now, be interested for your minority outside your borders... thats not nationalism. Of course you want the best for them and ofcourse you gonna help them in many ways. That does not mean of course.. they had to create their own country. For sure.. there is nothing official coming out from Greece that says something like or even implying something like that. A happy minority.. that is what Greece just wants and I thing that is what you wanted in Kossovo in the beggining.. right? If you have this... there is no need for violence no need for future scenarios. Everybody can be happy..
"If Greece really wants to cool down Bollano and company, she should tell them to stop b.itching about Albania and albanians and to respect the laws of Albania and not to ask Greeks to police Himara..." ----------------------------------------------------------- Nobody said to Bollano to asks Greeks to police Himara. Albanians should police Himara.... but with a full respect of the Greeks there. They must have some form of autonomy as a minority. Is it too much to ask for it? In Greece we have the Muslim minority, they have all what they have asked for... and everybody is happy.. the last 20 years that Greece is in EU. Imagine we even allowed them to have "Muftis" (religion Islamic court)! Even Tourkey does not allow "Muftis"! And we give them salary every month! Just do the same since you're interested in EU too. That is how the game is being played..
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Post by alb12345 on Dec 12, 2008 23:23:46 GMT -5
basilmacedon quote: They must have some form of autonomy as a minority. Is it too much to ask for it? yes sure first chameria issue that they make 150000 right now in albania they home and the land onwers in greece of today the case is in europen court by the way. albanian emigrants in greece do make 7% of totall populacion, how can any country ask for minority rights when greece the only country in worlds that say we are homogens without any other minority lets start with souliotis and arvanitis or the turks exchange or fyrom bulgarians aka macedonians etj
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Post by albquietman on Dec 12, 2008 23:46:36 GMT -5
Basil, I have to agree with you on what is official, and I mean the Greek diplomacy...of course the Greek government can't go in the open and ask the autonomy of the so called Vorio-Epirus, but there are behind the scenes actions that prove that. I know it might sound like a conspiracy theory, but it's true, and you know that...and by the way, do not try to draw line between Kosova and the Greek minority in Albania, because there is no comparison between the two...
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Post by Kassandros on Dec 13, 2008 6:33:48 GMT -5
alb1234, please make sense when you demand something.
First you must learn what the word "minority" means. The Albanian immgrants in Greece are not minority. They have a different term "Economic immigrants" is called. The Arvanites or Souliots are not a minority since they dont ask to be considered minority. You have to want to be minority... not just because alb1234 asked for it. Finally, Chams could be a minority but unfortunately, the ones who lost in WW2 lost also their minorities rights. Germans of Poland, Bulgarians of Greece and Chams of Greece lost their land. That is what happens in the wars if you choose the wrong side. It didnt happen only to you. Others, mostly Germans, lost their land too.
Now that we have clarified what is and what is not minority... lets talk about minorities.
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Post by Kassandros on Dec 13, 2008 6:44:28 GMT -5
albquietman, what I believe is the Greek govrnment keeps that back in the agenta and waits to see what path Albania will follow. For example, if Albania will follow the EU path where all the members look forward and not inside the borders of their neigbhbours. That means that if Albania decides to "disappear" the Chamerian organizations or any other nationalist organizations asking for land in Greece then the Greek minority issue will be disappeared too.
If Albania, follows the US path, and try to exploit that AmericanoAlbano temporary "friendship" against their neighbors and supports natianalistic cycles inside Albania.... then suddenly the Greek minority issue will be the first news in Media and Albanian economic immigrants will be deported in high numbers.
That is what I believe and it doesnt seems bad as an idea. Be happy that Albania has the first move.. so it depends on you. Thats good for Albania. You decide, we follow. I hope Greece had the advantage of decision in external policy issues like you do in this case. You just have to show us what are your intentions as neighbors.. if you have good or bad intentions.. Thats fair enough according to me.
"do not try to draw line between Kosova and the Greek minority in Albania, because there is no comparison between the two..." ------------------------------------------------- Why?
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 13, 2008 10:08:14 GMT -5
Why? Before the creation of the [glow=red,2,300]Albanian state in 1912[/glow] [glow=blue,2,300] Northern Epirus [/glow] was United and Undivided ( Epirotic Land). GREECEWhat happened with all Epirotes The territory was named “Epirus”, and it comprised Chimarra, Argyrokastro, Ag. Saranda, Kolonia, Leskovikio, Premeti, Korytsa etc, and its citizens were to be called [glow=blue,2,300]“Epirots”[/glow] and not [glow=red,2,300]Shqipitars[/glow] The Greek minority in Albania is not concentrated mainly in the south in the 99 villages what about Chimarra, ? Avlona ? in the middle or northern of Albania in the Albanian capital Tirana and all over Albania lives Ethnic Greeks too...
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Post by slvsdied4you on Dec 13, 2008 11:18:10 GMT -5
if your neighbors are not EU/Nato then you are not either in reality but just in fairytale while you burn . Seems like your looking for s. Albania ? wanting more to burn maybe ?
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 13, 2008 12:11:02 GMT -5
No we want only that the Albanian government to respect there Brothers Epirotes,respect the human rights. Albania is bilingual and the Albanian authorities should recognized the Greek language as second official language. We want only Epirotes and Albanians who are mixed should live in Peace together nothing more. Albanians were always on the side of the Greeks.
The only one who we will burn down are you FYromounia who have not respect of our Greek history.
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Post by slvsdied4you on Dec 13, 2008 12:23:49 GMT -5
No we want only that the Albanian government to respect there Brothers Epirotes,respect the human rights. Albania is bilingual and the Albanian authorities should recognized the Greek language as second official language. We want only Epirotes and Albanians who are mixed should live in Peace together nothing more. Albanians were always on the side of the Greeks. Let me ask you , Does Greece offer same for Albanians,Slavs and other minorities within ? "The only one who we will burn down are you FYromounia who have not respect of our Greek history." whats this fyrowhatever , You have nothing to respect your history is pieces from everyone else history conglomerated into one language
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Post by lozonjare on Dec 13, 2008 12:26:31 GMT -5
No we want only that the Albanian government to respect there Brothers Epirotes,respect the human rights. Albania is bilingual and the Albanian authorities should recognized the Greek language as second official language. We want only Epirotes and Albanians who are mixed should live in Peace together nothing more. Albanians were always on the side of the Greeks. The only one who we will burn down are you FYromounia who have not respect of our Greek history. HAHAHAHA oh yea Albania doesn't respect minority rights at all, I mean we only let them open up schools in their language, we really are horrible. Greece on the other hand, who expells and ethnically cleanses people, is who we should be looking up to for how to take care of an ethnic minority. Yea many people in Albania are bilingual, they speak Albanian and ITALIAN, so if anything, Italian should be made a second language. Enough with your garbage pseudo-Greek Kartda.... go see a pyschologist.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 17, 2008 3:57:52 GMT -5
Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians the majority speak Greek re Ornio In Albania, Greeks are considered a "national minority", and Aromanians (referred to as Vlachs) a "linguistic minority".[1] In Albania, many Aromanians (sometimes referred to by Greeks as Arvanitovlachs) self-identify as Greeks, and after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania, links were established between the Vlachs of Albania and the Vlachs of Greece, especially those among the former who claim a Greek identity: they are invited by Vlachs of Greece to their festivals, and receive help from them to rebuild churches or in the form of other necessary assistance to Vlach villages in Albania There is an indigenous ethnic Greek minority in Albania dating back to the 7th century B.C., concentrated mainly around Argirokastro, Agioi Saranta and Himarra, but also throughout the whole of Albania. Culturally speaking, it is mainly represented through the Omonia organisation. Unfortunately there are no reliable statistics on the actual size of the minority, since no official census with ethnic criteria has been conducted to date, although this is one of the commitments to the European Union. According to data presented to the 1919 Paris Conference, the Greek minority numbered 120,000,[3] and last census to include data on ethnic minorities conducted in 1989 under the communist regime cites only 58,785 Greeks,[1] although the total population of Albania had tripled in the meantime.[3] The last census to include data on linguistic minorities held in 1955, recorded 4,249 Vlachs/Aromanians.[1] Sources from the Greek minority have claimed that there are up to 400,000 Greeks in Albania, or 12% of the total population at the time (from the "Epirot lobby" of Greeks with family roots in Albania
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Post by alb12345 on Dec 18, 2008 1:31:50 GMT -5
The first partition of the Ottoman Empire in 1878, combined with the growth of the spirit of nationalism, had a profound and direct effect on the region which later came to be known as the Balkan peninsula. The second stage of the waning of Turkish power and rule resulted from the Balkan Wars of 1912–13, culminating in the Treaty of Bucharest of 1913, in which Bulgaria, Greece, Montenegro, Romania and Serbia attempted to enlarge their territories in order to divide the Ottoman Empire. However, the idea of neatly demarcating these territories was an impossible goal. Moreover, these countries further divided Albania and Macedonia, with disastrous results for the minorities there. The situation was aggravated by the advent of World War I with many atrocities and harassment such as forced conversion of Muslims to Christianity, combined with further migration.
The disintegration of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires after the Treaty of Versailles, caused the political map of the Balkans to change radically. The creation of new states, such as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, was accompanied by the forced annexation of the territories of Macedonia and Kosovo in 1920. At the creation of Albania in 1913, and its recognition in 1920, half of the former population was left outside Albania, in territory assigned to Greece. 1927–1938 and contains 106 documents
This is a period exemplified by increasing problems and appeals to the League of Nations, but with little concrete resolution of any outstanding problems. Albanian minorities, especially in Greece, attempted to get recourse for the confiscation of their property by Greeks.
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Post by kartadolofonos on Dec 20, 2008 0:40:52 GMT -5
lozonjare
Before 1912, Albania or Shqiperia, had never existed as a nation or state
Northern Albania was Serbian and Southern Albania was Greek
So, Turks - Ottoman empire brought Albanians or Shqipetars to the Balkan that is fact.
Epirus from the Ancient times had Greeks populating the area... Albanians didnt exist that time and didnt have any borders with Greece. Since 1913 Northern Epirus and Southern Epirus where ment as a geographical area. The problem started after the dustruction of the Ottoman Empire when Greece claimed this area as Epirus and the Albanians as South Albania. As the Greek facts had been stronger and was holding on the Greek Orthodox population which lived in the area, eventually the Greeks didnt manage to keep all the area part of Greece. The basic facts of the Albanians had been that they live there and in the rest of Epirus many Muslim populate the area. With the situation it was very hard to seperate the ethnic populations as in the Turkish rule the nations had been put in groups by religion. This issue started having problems when Ali Pasha ruled the area of Epirus from ArgiroKastro to Koritsa until Igoumenitsa and Preveza, he had declared Ioannina the Capital of Epirus in 1788. The Turks saw everyone who was a Muslim as a Turk and who ever was a Christian as a Greek, so basicly they didnt care about the identity of a person. The first try for independence against the Turkish rule was in 1821 when citizens of Himara tryed to make the other Greek Epirots to fight with the rest of the Greeks for the war of independence in 1821. The same thing happend in 1854 when the Greek Epirots tryed to win their independence during the Russo-Turkish war with the aim of Uniting with Greece which was their first thing that was going be done from their plans.
From the beggining of the First Balkan War in 1912 the Albanians sent a letter to the Great Powers(In c. 1900: United Kingdom, France, Russian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, German Empire) telling them that they support the Turks which also help on their benefits. In 29 July 1913 the Great Powers Recognized the State of Albania with the Treaty of London(1912-1913)and the Protocol of Florence(1913) gave Greece, Southern Epirus in the end of the First Balkan War and with the Treaty of Bucharest(1913) gave Northern Epirus to Albania in the end of the Second Balkan War. Greece rejected this and did not accept to leave Northern Epirus as there where Greeks which populated the area and had a strong Military force in the area since 13 October 1913. The Great Powers at 13 February 1914 demanded the Greek army to leave Northern Epirus with the new Protocol of Florence(1914) and for exchange they will recognize them some islands at the Aegean sea except: Tenedos, Imvros and Kastelorizo. The answer of Eleftheros Venizelos the Prime Minsiter of Greece, with very sadness was that they wanted the Greeks of Northern Epirus to be safe and not to be in any danger when the leave. As the Greeks of Northern Epirus felt unfairness of what had happen and they refused this to happen so they rebeld and created their own Gouverment in 28 February 1914. When the Greek army left, the Albanians attacked the Greeks of Northern Epirus but without any victory so they went to an agreement in 17 March with the Protocol of Corfu and recognized the Authonomous Northern Epirus. Albania is Nation with an identity since 1912 and a State since 1913 when the Great powers recognized them... Albania was basicly created by the Great Powers . The Greeks still didnt let it down and at the beggining of the First World War in 1914 the Greek army had enterd in Northern Epirus just to protect the area. The Italians had Albania as a Protectorate and they occcupied Vlora but this was not enough for Italy which wanted to occupy all of Epirus until the Southern area. After as Greece joined the First World War in 1917 the Greek army enterd in all the City/Towns of Northern Epirus and had liberated the area.The Paris Peace Conference of 1919 awarded the area to Greece after World War I, however, political developments such as the Greek defeat in the Greco-Turkish War of 1921-22 and, crucially, Italian, Austrian and German lobbying in favor of Albania meant that Greece could not claim northern Epirus. The area was finally ceded to Albania in 1924.
For the last time at the Second World War, Greece again liberated Northern Epirus but this time had been liberated from the Italians which had occupied Albania at 1939. After when Greece fell to the Germans the Italians returned back to Northern Epirus and had burnt over than 6,200 Greek houses and murderd 1,700 Greeks.
The Albanians claim over an area in South Epirus called Thesprotia and Preveza which they call it Chameria. The Cham Albanians are some Ethnic people that are Muslims but speaking the Albanian language... Its not very clear about the specific Origin of Cham Albanians, many theories about their heritage but because of the mixture of the nations during the Ottoman Rule in the Balkans we cant be sure about it.
In the Second World War when Italy declared war to Greece in 28 October 1940, the Cham Albanians supported the Italians because they promised them that if they fought with them the area of Thesprotia and Preveza "Chameria" for the Albanians would be given to them as an independent area. During the Greek-Italian War the Cham Albanians had been killing Greeks and burning Greek villages in Epirus. As the Greeks defeated the Italians and they had been forced to withdraw the Greek borders, the Germans came and managed to defeat the Greeks in Macedonia while the Greek army had been fighting the Italians in Epirus. In 1941 the Germans had invaided Greece... The Cham Albanians had been collaborating with the Germans during the Axis occupation of Greece between 1941-1944 and had been treating badly the Greeks in Epirus by continuing to committee crimes and killing unarmed Greek Civilians with the aim to Ethnic clean the Greeks from Epirus. When the Germans left Greece in 1944 the Greeks arrested the leader of the Cham Albanians and executed him. The Cham Albanians got scared that the time would come to face justice and to get punished for the crimes they commited to Greeks so they fled from Greece to Albania. The Albanians today accuse Greece for a Genocide towards Cham Albanians which had never happend so they can explain the reason they fled to Albania and to once again claim over Southern Epirus. The Cham Albanians are war-criminals and thats the reason they left Greece so they wont be punished according the Greek Law. Now they wont come back because they are accused of war-criminals and cannot return to Greece and if they return they will be punished for the war-crimes they commited to Greeks during the Greco-Italian War(1940-1941) and the Axis Occupation(1941-1944) by collaborating with the Germans.
After the Second World War, Albania was governed by a Communist regime led by Enver Hoxha, which suppressed the minority (as the rest of the population) and took measures to disperse it or at least keep it loyal to Albania, such as: pupils were taught only Albanian history and culture at primary level, the minority zone was reduced from 103 to 99 villages (excluding Himara), many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country (as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent), Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, Greeks were pressed enormously to change their names to true "Illyrian" names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well.
Tensions between Greece and Albania over the treatment of the Greek population persisted well after the end of the World War II, the formal state of war between the two countries being lifted only as late as 1987. Relations reached a low point after the fall of Albania's Communist régime in 1991. In 1993 Albania deported the Greek Orthodox Archimandrite of Argirokastro for what is described as seditious behaviour. The crisis in relations was exacerbated in late August 1994, when an Albanian court sentenced five members (a sixth member was added later) of the ethnic Greek political party "Omonoia" to prison terms of 6-8 years on charges of treason, because they demanded that Northern Epirus be granted to Greece, and for illegal carrying of arms. Greece responded by freezing all EU aid to Albania, sealing its border with Albania, and between August-November 1994, expelling over 115,000 illegal Albanian immigrants, a figure quoted in the US Department of State Human Rights Report and given to the American authorities by their Greek counterpart. In December 1994, however, Greece began to permit limited EU aid to Albania, while Albania released two of the Omonoia defendants and reduced the sentences of the remaining four.
In more recent years, tensions have surrounded the participation of candidates of the ethnic Greek Unity for Human Rights Party in Albanian elections. In 2000, the Albanian municipal elections were criticised by international human rights groups for "serious irregularities" reported to have been directed against ethnic Greek candidates and parties. The most recent municipal elections held in February 2007 saw the participation of a number of ethnic Greek candidates, with Vasilis Bolanos being re-elected mayor of the southern town of Himara despite the governing and opposition Albanian parties fielding a combined candidate against him. Greek observers have expressed concern at the "non-conformity of procedure" in the conduct of the elections.
99 villages, of the recognized by the Albanian state minority zone, in the geographical region of Northern Epirus use officially Greek as their principal language. There have been many minor incidents between the Greek population and Albanian authorities over issues such as the alleged involvement of the Greek government in local politics, the raising of the Greek flag on Albanian territory, and the language taught in state schools of the region; however, these issues have, for the most part, been non-violent.
Although relations between Albania and Greece have been greatly improved, the Greek minority in Albania, however, continues to suffer discrimination as the Albanian government has purged ethnic Greeks from appointed positions of power and continues to restrict the teaching of the Greek language.
Today, relations have significantly improved; Greece and Albania signed a Friendship, Cooperation, Good Neighbourliness and Security Agreement on 21 March 1996. Additionally, Greece is Albania's main foreign investor, having invested more than 400 million dollars in Albania, Albania's second largest trading partner, with Greek products accounting for some 21% of Albanian imports, and 12% of Albanian exports coming to Greece, and Albania's fourth largest donor country, having provided aid amounting to 73.8 million euros.
Albania still occupies Northern Epirus which still has a very strong Greek population of more than 300,000 and in the rest of Albania about 20,000. The Albanians even now falsely claim over the Southern area of Epirus by playing with Albanian minorities and by trying to claim it with false facts. The Great Powers(United States, United Kingdom) still support Albania, which have benefits over the expansion of Albania but some of the Great Powers which supported Albania in the Balkan Wars and the First World War now support the Greeks just like France and Russia. The Greeks today feel unfairness for all this... Not only because Northern Epirus is taken away from them but because its taken away from them with such a cowerdles way from the Albanian side. Northern Epirus should one day be back to Greece, Albania has no right having it if he dont stop to discriminate the large Greek minority within Albania.
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Post by tejkqyre on Dec 22, 2008 5:03:35 GMT -5
So, Turks - Ottoman empire brought Albanians or Shqipetars to the Balkan that is fact. IF WE FOLOW THIS LOGIC EVERY ARVANITAS HAS TO GO BACK TO TURKEY COUSE THEY SPEAK ALBANIAN/SHQIP/ARVANITIKA
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