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Post by alb12345 on Jan 10, 2009 0:30:56 GMT -5
Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto: ÒGiorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting. Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lÕistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli? ) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to set up the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff? I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (NeÕ?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (ImperoccheÕ vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war. I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Troja from the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (NeÕ troverai nobilitaÕ piuÕ antica della virtuÕ.) Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperoccheÕ) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French? Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep? In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi? ) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom. (Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mi vai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed. Good bye....Ó "
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Post by Kassandros on Jan 10, 2009 8:45:14 GMT -5
Yeah... Greeks always had balls when speaking to stronger ones.
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 10, 2009 13:30:31 GMT -5
You know 500 years ago the people people were really dumb. Scanderberg probably had the mental capacity of a 12 year old elementary student of today. He knew what he heard of Pirro and Alexander ..they were more in the dark than todays researchers. How can someone living in medieval Albania know what happened 1700 years earlier? Think about it.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 10, 2009 14:40:56 GMT -5
I think Alexander teh Great was half Illyrian...i wanst convinced until I saw this movie lol
but he spread Hellenic culture and thers writings were he said he was Greek so hes Greek.
Pyrrhus or "Pirro" was an embarrasemnt so it doesnt really matter waht he was hes not on the same level as Skenderbeg or Alexander, every heard of a Pyrrhic victory?
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Post by epiroti on Jan 10, 2009 14:59:33 GMT -5
Scanderbeg was nobility, and spent most of his life being educated and trained in Instambul. Do you actually believe that the empire didn't have any literature on antiquity? On top of that, Albania at the time was referred to as Epirus (and I think sometimes even as Macedonia). This most probably due to the way that the Romans referred to the part of illyria that is now albania. (A personal opinion here: I don't think the romans would refer to pretty much all of the current/day albania as nova epirus - a reagion which was mostly part of the kingdom of illyria before the invasion - is the population of that region was different in ethnicity from the original epirus, that of pyrrhus...). Scanderbeg had enough reason to believe such a thing. Regardless of the accuracy of his beliefs about our ancestry, you can't call the man ignorant. He wasn't a historian, but a general/king. So judge him on the latter accomplishments.
And as far as his belief that the albanians were a warrior race, he proved it... even against the man to which the letter was aimed at.
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Post by albquietman on Jan 10, 2009 17:19:59 GMT -5
You know 500 years ago the people people were really dumb. Scanderberg probably had the mental capacity of a 12 year old elementary student of today. He knew what he heard of Pirro and Alexander ..they were more in the dark than todays researchers. How can someone living in medieval Albania know what happened 1700 years earlier? Think about it. If 500 years ago people were really dumb, and Scanderbeg had the mental capacity of a 12 years old, how about the ancient greeks and romans? Did they have the mental capacity of a human embryo? Mental capacity and being knowledgeable are two different things. The fists one is the ability to understand things, and the second, the ability to memorize them...being knowledgeable doesn't mean you're smart. If you don't have the mental capacity to understand what you know and talking about, then your brain is just a living computer. I don't know if anyone of you have seen these retarded people that can remember dates that go back hundreds of years back with an accuracy that only computers can match...but they are retarded...sorry, mentally challenged people
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 10, 2009 17:35:14 GMT -5
I think I gave him too much credit in that...Have you stopped to wonder how smart a 12 year old elementary student is today? Think about it and answer me below? Don't forget to take into consideration it was 500 years ago...
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Post by kasso on Jan 10, 2009 17:37:49 GMT -5
Skanderbeg was a very well educated person and could speak many languages fluently! He was probably a genius!!!
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Post by rebelyell on Jan 10, 2009 17:50:45 GMT -5
Kanaris, why is the man with the mullet getting popped in the jaw?
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 10, 2009 18:36:54 GMT -5
Skenderbeg attended military school in Turkey, he was educated in Instanbul. they Ottomans had their negative points but they wrent stupid. stupid peopel dont conquer foreing lands and "stabilize" them for 500 yrs
anyway the movie with Alexander wasent so bad, i saw so much of myself in teh guy mostely in the fighting scenes though LoL but seriously for those u who think hes Albanian i hoep u know he was a butt pirate...
as far as Skenderbeg the Turks gave him the name to compare his fighting skills to Alexander:
they say taht history is lies agrees upon so who knows. you have to look at what historians from different sources say u cant base everything on personal or nationalistic opinions.
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Post by albquietman on Jan 10, 2009 18:40:18 GMT -5
I think I gave him too much credit in that...Have you stopped to wonder how smart a 12 year old elementary student is today? Think about it and answer me below? Don't forget to take into consideration it was 500 years ago... A 12 years old might look smarter to you because knows how to use a computer and to chat, to play video games better than you and me, because has nothing better to do and to worry about. Knowing how to do these things is not smartness, but just part of their childhood life. Being smart means to use logic and common sense, and I don't think that you'll find any of that to a 12 years old, and of course that's because of their age. You may see some exceptions, but in general in that group age people can't outsmart an adult...that's not even an option for them. Talking about 500 years ago, as I said before, you confuse smartness with knowledge. Of course today's kids are more knowledgeable than 500 years ago, but that doesn't mean that they are much smarter. You might put in the equation the evolution, but evolution doesn't work in such short periods of time. All we humans have accomplished today, its not because of evolution, but because of our hard work to make our life better, and I hope you know how it works, we invent something and the next step will be to get the most out of it and make it better. If evolution worked for us, it would have worked for African tribes too, but as we know, they are still in primitive stages as they were thousands of years ago.
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Kanaris
Amicus
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Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 10, 2009 18:42:55 GMT -5
Oh yeah..the Ottomans were educated.... they were a bunch of savages.... Name me some of the great things they did that improve your life today?
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Jan 10, 2009 18:46:49 GMT -5
Let's say he was not Leonardo or Michelangelo..the man knew how to wield a sword .... he was a leader among his people... who were eager to be led.The medieval times did not produce too many smart people in the Balkans. The smart ones scrammed fro Italy.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 10, 2009 22:08:11 GMT -5
Oh yeah..the Ottomans were educated.... they were a bunch of savages.... Name me some of the great things they did that improve your life today? y should the Ottomans have done somthing for me? i'm glad they dident because 3/4 of my ancestors didnt have to convert and 1/2 of tehm were teh only ones in the balkans besides Montenegro who got to keep their autonomy compltely free from Ottoman rule... thats not to say all Ottomans were stupid even Nazis invented some things Instanbul has alwayes been teh place for the intellectuals even wehn it stopped being Constantinopel they are regions and cities in every nation taht are exceptions. for exampel Korca has alwayes been an exampel of teh best Albanian civilization, like New York is to America like Athens and Saloniki were to Greece or Rome to Italy etc anyway i hate these type of discussions because i hate taking sides but soem peopel really need to wake from their nationalistic slumbers
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 11, 2009 2:28:33 GMT -5
When ever I read Turkish history, Albanians make sense. When trying to study just Albanians alone it is never clear.
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Post by Alb_Korcar on Jan 11, 2009 12:35:21 GMT -5
When ever I read Turkish history, Albanians make sense. When trying to study just Albanians alone it is never clear. u could say teh same t hing about Greece, especially about modern Greece, "wehenever i read history about Arvanites modern Greece makes sense again" ;D
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 11, 2009 15:49:58 GMT -5
u could say teh same t hing about Greece, especially about modern Greece, "wehenever i read history about Arvanites modern Greece makes sense again" ;D Let me educate you. You could also study the Byzantine era too and see who they were "Greeks offcourse Over veiw of the Byzantine Empire. illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=byzantineera&action=display&thread=12211This is written by writers who were with the crusaders Byzantines and Greeks were totally one people... illyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=byzantineera&action=display&thread=6520Now on topic; Georgios Kastriotis was a Byzantine Prince of the region then called Epirus and not known as "Albania, back then", at least during the Greek Byzantine period. Let's see what's wrong. Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto: ÒGiorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, greeting.
So why in the hell is he addressing "gentleman of Albania" .
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Post by ILIRI I MADH on Jan 11, 2009 19:36:52 GMT -5
^I like the Arvanite period of greece better...from around 9 century AD to 19 century AD, until the orthodox church assimilated them! Maybe because he was a Albanian Damn that stupid prince he compares skanderbegs people (Albanese) to sheep, damn you prince of italy, skanderbeg showed you not to mess with his people (albanese)
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Post by meltdown711 on Jan 11, 2009 19:44:48 GMT -5
Its formal letter writing. He is Scanderbeg, gentleman of Albania, writing to Giovani, prince of Taranto. All such letters of this era had such beginnings. Some more modest then others. It establishes positions; and Ive seen the original Italian letter, that's how it begins. In another Ottoman era letter he is called Iskender Bey Arnavutlar (to differentiate from another Iskender Bey)
And the Kastriota family doesnt appear until after the Byzantine loss of territory in the region. Its not derived from Byzantine nobility. It was born long after.
Some knowledge of history does help in actually trying to make claims Arxhi...
Wrong, actually. Scanderbeg came from the area of Kruja, in both Byzantine and later Serb documents the region was given high autonomy by the emperors over the Albanians in the region.
"... Emperor Andronikos II renewed the privilages which his father and former Emperor had granted to the Albanians of Kroia, specifically exempting them from the payment of tax on their trade with Durazzo." (Nicol 27)
On top of that, Kruja was never included in the territory of Epirus (it was part of Nova Epirus, which during the time of Scanderbeg was called 'Albania', according to how it was later proclaimed by Charles of Anjou). If you read Nicol's Despotate of Epiros, he makes a point of excluding Epirus Nova (New Epirus) and only includes Epirus Vetus (Old Epirus). Kruja was never a part of the original territory of Epirus, it was part of Nova Epirus.
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Post by Arxileas on Jan 11, 2009 20:14:19 GMT -5
I still think this letter is a fraud. Can we see the original to compare please.
Besides this topic doesn't belong here, why the original poster decided on posting it on here in the Elliniko forum beats the heck out of us. May move it soon.
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