Bozur
Amicus
Posts: 5,515
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Post by Bozur on Jun 8, 2009 16:00:43 GMT -5
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rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
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Post by rex362 on Sept 20, 2010 17:39:40 GMT -5
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Post by kartadolofonos on Sept 21, 2010 5:12:31 GMT -5
ancient Epirus, now divided between albania and greece. against a widespread view that [glow=blue,2,300]they spoke a form of greek[/glow] (western greek) [glow=green,2,300]the albanians argue that the epirotes were one with the rest of the illyrians.[/glow] thats bullshiit... illyrians live in contact with the epirotes they have his own greek city state and his own king !they were border between epirotes and illyrians. how dump is this john wilkes - the illyrians ;D illyria greaca was hellenic and the illyricum from the evidence was mixed hellenic /roman /celtic but the grecoitalians said that illyricum was hellenic because the romans spread greek culture too. If the albanians claim illyrian ancestry they must search in illyricum the name said it all illyria greaca
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Post by ushtari on Jan 29, 2011 17:46:23 GMT -5
You say Albanians are newcomers to epirus?
Lets take the name of that river, Thyamis.
Thyamis was used during ancient greece. While new greek do not use that term, but Glycis or Kalamas is more used. If Albanians would have migrated later, then they would have adopted those Kalamas or Glycuis, but they didnt since they already was living there. Thats why they used the old title.
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 4, 2011 9:39:07 GMT -5
You say Albanians are newcomers to epirus? Lets take the name of that river, Thyamis. Thyamis was used during ancient greece. While new greek do not use that term, but Glycis or Kalamas is more used. If Albanians would have migrated later, then they would have adopted those Kalamas or Glycuis, but they didnt since they already was living there. Thats why they used the old title. You take a tenuous connection of "Cham" to "Thyamis" for granted and run with it. That's not good.
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Post by ushtari on Feb 4, 2011 9:49:59 GMT -5
You take a tenuous connection of "Cham" to "Thyamis" for granted and run with it. That's not good. Me? Look here: i55.tinypic.com/b8ajix.jpg
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 4, 2011 9:56:54 GMT -5
Hamp (the author of the chapter) refers to Cabej's view and finds the phonological change unexpected. He also seems to disagree with Cabej's derivation of Arta < Arachthos -quite uncertain itself- via Albanian. So, in other words, the connection is uncertain like I wrote, right?
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Post by ushtari on Feb 4, 2011 10:24:03 GMT -5
No the connection is not uncertain, Thyamis->Tchamis. Really no point in arguing that since its commonly known that Albanians use the old title. Instead tell me how come we use the old title, if we according to you are new immigrants to epirus?
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 4, 2011 10:29:44 GMT -5
No the connection is not uncertain, Thyamis->Tchamis. Really no point in arguing that since its commonly known that Albanians use the old title. Instead tell me how come we use the old title, if we according to you are new immigrants to epirus? Not "according to me". Obviously, there is a point in arguing since the name itself is of uncertain origin (did you read what you posted?)! Also, the Albanians call the river Kalama and Greeks refer to the region as Tsamouria, right?
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Post by terroreign on Feb 5, 2011 13:25:27 GMT -5
Nothing can be up for question with ushtari
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Post by atdhetari on Feb 6, 2011 7:32:21 GMT -5
here's the educated greek stance on every subject,
person of sound logic: 'there is a lingustic, racial and cultural continuity of albanians in epirus'
greek: 'not according to me'
person of sound logic: 'what, are you saying the facts are wrong?'
greek: 'no, you just have to intepret them from a greek perspective'
person of sound logic: 'but, the facts....'
greek: 'it'll make sense if you see it the greek way'
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 6, 2011 7:48:39 GMT -5
It's a bit more like this
person 1: Albanian presence in Epirus is ancient (despite what contemporary chronicles or modern historians might tell you). the proof lies in a certain interpretation of a toponym.
person 2: but the origins of that toponym are uncertain. it's also used by Greeks.
person 1: uncertain? I don't think so, look here.
person 2: but the source you posted says exactly that.
person 1: i don't care what the source says, it's certain, let's not argue about it.
person 2: if it's uncertain, we should argue about it.
person 3: fakkin Greks. by the way, I'm not sure what quote marks are.
;D
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Post by ushtari on Feb 6, 2011 11:50:20 GMT -5
Not "according to me". Obviously, there is a point in arguing since the name itself is of uncertain origin (did you read what you posted?)! Also, the Albanians call the river Kalama and Greeks refer to the region as Tsamouria, right? It is accepted by Cabej's, just because hamp finds it unexpected it does not mean they are alien to each other. It is commonly known that Chamis derives from Thyamis. Tsam - Cham what is it that you dont see? are you blind?
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 6, 2011 12:33:33 GMT -5
It is accepted by Cabej's, just because hamp finds it unexpected it does not mean they are alien to each other. It is commonly known that Chamis derives from Thyamis. It's interesting that Hamp finds difficult the proposed changes that involve the two toponyms of Epirus he discusses rather than those of ancient Illyria, though. I don't know what "commonly known" means in this case. I'm sure many uncertain or inaccurate things are "commonly known" anyway. (btw, this discussion reminds me of a similar one I had with a Greek who thought that the change Thyamis - Tsamouria proved the continuity of the hydronym but, of course, in a greek context.)
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Post by ushtari on Feb 6, 2011 14:04:49 GMT -5
Well, then why dont you tell me where the words derives from? where does Chameria derives from?
There is really no more to discuss...
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Post by roflcopterlanding on Feb 6, 2011 17:28:56 GMT -5
I have no idea, I don't even know if the Chams gave their name to the region or if the region gave the Chams their name; do you (seriously asking. you seem to subscribe to the latter, unless you think Thyamis gave its name to the Chams and the Chams to the area)? N.G.L. Hammond mentions a theory according to which it might be derived from turkish çamur "mud" which would make Chameria "mud land", "mire". Who knows.
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Post by ushtari on Feb 9, 2011 13:59:06 GMT -5
But the thyamis river is named cham in Albanian. Therefor, its should be logical that the word comes from thyamis, and the albanian interpretation is then cham. Look at this map, cammania near corchya.
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Post by atdhetari on Feb 9, 2011 15:32:16 GMT -5
you have to love the greek never say die attitude in keeping even the most ridiculous claims alive, even if most of the time they're pissing against the wind
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Post by terroreign on Feb 9, 2011 22:23:10 GMT -5
But the thyamis river is named cham in Albanian. Therefor, its should be logical that the word comes from thyamis, and the albanian interpretation is then cham. Look at this map, cammania near corchya. According to this map cham ain't Illyrian
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Post by ushtari on Feb 10, 2011 15:45:01 GMT -5
According to this map cham ain't Illyrian Its not clear whether the name comes from that tribe, i just took an example. They where Epirotes and its not proven that they where greeks. Many believe that the royal families where Greeks, while the ordinary people where non-greeks. They name Cham is probably adopted in illyrian time.
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