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Post by tito on Nov 20, 2008 17:03:31 GMT -5
Tito You are not funny. My father was in a concentration camp run by Cetniks so I don't find that subject funny at all. You are a BIG Bosniak, we get it. ---edit---
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Post by manijak on Nov 20, 2008 17:54:46 GMT -5
Fazla
I don't think I would be a very smart person if I accepted BIH as a country that is ignorant and that prefers nationalism over wealth and opportunity. I love BIH for its culture, customs, language, music, food, humor, way of life. Instead of accepting its negative, its young peoples jobs, mine and yours, to do something to make it more educated, make it more wealthy, and give people more opportunity.
There are some people out there, nationalists, extremists, who don't want that to happen. They think being nationalistic is more important than the country having money to function. There are people who think ignorance, being homophobic, is part of being Bosnian. I don't agree. There are more countries against it than for it, its not a unique position. It's an ignorant position though and people should strive for progress. Otherwise you end up as a laughing stock.
I think France does a good job of protecting its culture, keeping their uniqueness, but they aren't poor and their people have opportunity. So both can be done.
And finally, only I will decide what is right for me to fight for and nobody else. I don't define other people and they won't define me.
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Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
Ha!
Posts: 1,237
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Post by Anthologic on Nov 20, 2008 18:04:41 GMT -5
Which concentration camp?
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Nov 20, 2008 21:08:35 GMT -5
Tito, a warning if your insulting language continues towards other members, you will just be deleted. Please be nice.
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Post by hellboy87 on Nov 20, 2008 21:55:51 GMT -5
I dont understand
The country was in war,you wanted to save yourself and wanted to have a better life so you left,but you still liked your country/culture and keep an eye on it.
So?
Whats with this whole traitor thing and the referral of the Bosniak Nubian topic???
But Manjiak,yes I do agree that Bosniaks need to be progressive and not "conserative" for it to develop and flourish.Focus on what needs to be done to improve the quality of life for the people of Bosnia etc etc.....
I want to see that too.
I really hope Bosniaks will be liberal bunch but who are proud of their culture,heritage etc etc.
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Post by vinjak on Nov 20, 2008 22:47:42 GMT -5
Tito, a warning if your insulting language continues towards other members, you will just be deleted. Please be nice. How many more do you think before deletion ?
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 21, 2008 4:52:38 GMT -5
The point you made comparing it to Bosnians becoming Ottomans doesn't really work. Bosnians converted to Islam cuz it wasn't a big deal. Christianity never had a strong foothold in Bosnia, this has been proven again and again, and people practised whatever folk type of belifs they had. And when Islam came they saw an opportunity and were smart to take it. Nothing much changed for them except a few more holidays with different names. Same thing in Albania. Christianity simply sucked there and it was easy to switch. Being "Ottoman" isn't wasn't ethnic identity anyway. More like a title for us if nothing else. BS. Complete BS! I don't buy this argument for one second. Bosniaks defend their conversion to Islam by saying people weren't religious or they lived in the hills & were pagan or something like that. BS. People aren't religious today... Back then people would have been much more religious. Christianity, as well as Orthodoxy & Catholicism was well established way before Islam arrived. For example in Raska (Sandzak) the oldest preserved Christian church (St Peters) dates to the 9th century. The Ottomans & Islam didn't arrive until 500 years later. Now those Serbs call themselves Bosniak. And how did Islam arrive? Not through peaceful means that's for sure. There's no way you can call it some kind of enlightenment when the people who brought it were complete invaders. The Bosniak/Islamic identity is real. It has it's customs & culture that have developed. I don't call it fake. But you are complete converts.
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 21, 2008 7:19:30 GMT -5
That's...a stupid assumption. If we look at facts, much before Turks came Bosnian nobles changed religion when it suited to them. So the point stays, there never was such a great bond with religion.
What should that mean?? I don't get what example is that.
Turks came by the sword, converts to Islam didn't. That's a fact you have to live with. Actually the less muslims Turks had, the better it was for them, simply because of money.
I don't really get what you mean by that... if enlightenment = better conditions when they arrive, it definitely was an enlightenment. unfortunately as time passed the Ottoman empire stayed behind other European powers, but Bosnia prospered a lot when Turks arrived
The Bosniak and Islamic Identity while sharing many common points greatly differ, you can see that today even more.
And we are complete converts as you are.
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 21, 2008 7:33:54 GMT -5
Fazla I don't think I would be a very smart person if I accepted BIH as a country that is ignorant and that prefers nationalism over wealth and opportunity. I love BIH for its culture, customs, language, music, food, humor, way of life. Instead of accepting its negative, its young peoples jobs, mine and yours, to do something to make it more educated, make it more wealthy, and give people more opportunity. There are some people out there, nationalists, extremists, who don't want that to happen. They think being nationalistic is more important than the country having money to function. There are people who think ignorance, being homophobic, is part of being Bosnian. I don't agree. There are more countries against it than for it, its not a unique position. It's an ignorant position though and people should strive for progress. Otherwise you end up as a laughing stock. I think France does a good job of protecting its culture, keeping their uniqueness, but they aren't poor and their people have opportunity. So both can be done. And finally, only I will decide what is right for me to fight for and nobody else. I don't define other people and they won't define me. I know bro, I hope we'll all get to make Bosnia prosper. Those who get assimilated, I don't blame them... what has materially Bosnia done for them? Not much. And it's more or less those "materialistic" people who we lose ,meaning, who get assimilated. Bosnia left me many things inside, which I won't lose... it takes a lot of willpower and hard work to change things, and more than everything, actions. I am trying to do my part even here in Italy. In that regard, I admire Jews for what they have done, they are my inspiration (not the policy of the state of Israel).
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Post by manijak on Nov 21, 2008 8:32:22 GMT -5
Which concentration camp? Manjaca
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Post by manijak on Nov 21, 2008 8:51:38 GMT -5
^^^How old r u? That's what they all say; they will go back, many left 30-40 years ago and they are still here :-) Apart from a select few that had the guts and hope to go back. When you make a new life in a new country and have all of your family there would on earth would you want to leave? I would say, those types of decisions are pretty individual. I mean my parents won't be around forever. They want me to do what makes me happy. A lot of of sons/daughters live away from their parents. My dad, when we were in BIH, lived away from all his family. My mom, lived away from all of her sisters, except one. It was mostly family coming to visit on occasion. So in the end, the good part is, it comes down to you. Do you want to make a move? Do you have things you want to do there? I'm a political science student and I'd want to go back and get into politics there if I could.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 21, 2008 10:38:44 GMT -5
I think all your responses are a mumbo jumbo attempt at confusing the obvious but I’ll reply anyway. That's...a stupid assumption. If we look at facts, much before Turks came Bosnian nobles changed religion when it suited to them. So the point stays, there never was such a great bond with religion. You can replace the word assumption there with my stupid “common sense & obvious logic.” No, it’s nowhere near a stupid assumption. And it’s not an assumption anyway. Christianity was very well established way before Islam arrived through foreign invaders. What should that mean?? I don't get what example is that. Yes you do. I’m highlighting the fact that there is a preserved church 500 (five hundred!) years before Islam even arrived as an invading force. And that’s just one preserved church. It highlights the fact that Christianity was well established. Raska is one of the most well documented areas of Serbian (even pre-Christian) settlements. Serbian & Christian. Turks came by the sword, converts to Islam didn't. That's a fact you have to live with. Actually the less muslims Turks had, the better it was for them, simply because of money. Yeah right. That’s why they had systems like devshirme or whatever it is. That’s ridiculous. I don't really get what you mean by that... if enlightenment = better conditions when they arrive, it definitely was an enlightenment. unfortunately as time passed the Ottoman empire stayed behind other European powers, but Bosnia prospered a lot when Turks arrived Paganism to Christianity is an enlightenment. Christianity to Islam by an invading foreign power is not. The Bosniak/Islamic identity is real. It has it's customs & culture that have developed. I don't call it fake. But you are complete converts. We are converts from Paganism - less forced (hardly) & more enlightened. You are converts from Christianity & Serbdom - forced by dickhead foreign invaders ie the Turks.
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 21, 2008 10:55:33 GMT -5
You can replace the word assumption there with my stupid “common sense & obvious logic.” No, it’s nowhere near a stupid assumption. And it’s not an assumption anyway. Christianity was very well established way before Islam arrived through foreign invaders. I can replace it by "Serb common sense and logic" which in 99% of cases happens to be the total opposite of "common sense and logic". That there was Christianity - sure, no one is denying that. That people were heavily religious - not a single chance, if the nobles changed religion like socks. Islam invading force? lol. Than Christianity also has been an invading force in the Balkans. It's just stupid to say one was, the other not. And I STILL don't get what are you trying to convey.... that there was a church built in the 10th century? I understood that. I just don't get how that made Rashka the center of Christian fanatics. No, I'm talking about new cities, building, libraries, schools, public baths, roads. It's ridiculous that you are comparing those systems with current ones. If anyone could ever prove that Turks used a "convert or die" policy, I could agree, as it was not, and people freely chose to do so, I really don't get why to you a priest converting pagans is more enlightened than an imam converting christians. We weren't forced - so that makes your assumptions BS, and as for the enlightenment thing, I take it as an inferiority complex, so I won't bother myself with it. In Sandzak Serbs converted into Bosniaks and in Bosnia Bosniaks converted into Serbs some centuries later, not a big deal.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 21, 2008 11:03:55 GMT -5
What ridiculously puerile responses. You're just shooting yourself in the foot. It's as if 1 plus one does not equal 2. I can see you're not stupid from other posts but I honestly think you're denying the complete bleeding obvious here.
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Post by manijak on Nov 21, 2008 11:07:57 GMT -5
Not that he is denying, you just view Christianity as better than Islam, so you think Christians just bring people over to the good side, and when Imam's do it, they are converting people.
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Post by fazlinho on Nov 21, 2008 11:10:27 GMT -5
I am denying what is obvious to you, to me it's really crystal clear.
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Post by manijak on Nov 21, 2008 11:20:39 GMT -5
I want to ask the religious people though:
Does it make you less Serbian if you are not Orthodox or if you don't practice the religion?
This is why crazy nationalists are dumb. They connect things like personal faith to being part of a certain group, and then they obviously run into trouble when people make personal choices (like on their faith).
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Nov 21, 2008 11:52:19 GMT -5
You can replace the word assumption there with my stupid “common sense & obvious logic.” No, it’s nowhere near a stupid assumption. And it’s not an assumption anyway. Christianity was very well established way before Islam arrived through foreign invaders. [I can replace it by "Serb common sense and logic" which in 99% of cases happens to be the total opposite of "common sense and logic". That there was Christianity - sure, no one is denying that. That people were heavily religious - not a single chance, if the nobles changed religion like socks. OK how about a noble Bosniak such as yourself convert back to Christianity if it was so easy for your ancestors to flip flop & convert to Islam? Just do it man. It’s quite easy according to you. Islam invading force? lol. Than Christianity also has been an invading force in the Balkans. It's just stupid to say one was, the other not. And I STILL don't get what are you trying to convey.... that there was a church built in the 10th century? I understood that. I just don't get how that made Rashka the center of Christian fanatics. You’re lolling at Islam being an invading force! OK sorry, no the Turks were a friendly bunch & the Serbs were quite happy to let them in. The Battle of Kosovo was actually a big celebration of the arrival of the Turks… As for Raska and the Serbian church that stands about 500 years before the arrival of Islam, why pretend you don’t understand the point when it’s bleeding obvious? It’s basically my response to the ridiculous statements I hear from Bosniaks along the lines of… people weren’t religious, that they were Pagan, that Christianity wasn’t well established, that it was easy to convert etc. If anyone could ever prove that Turks used a "convert or die" policy, I could agree, as it was not, and people freely chose to do so, I really don't get why to you a priest converting pagans is more enlightened than an imam converting christians. Did I say there was a convert or die policy? I wasn’t even leading that way. But you have something ruthless like the Devshirme policy to convert Serbs. You have unfair taxes. You have poverty. You have a military force. You have a social structure & all sorts of pressures to convert people. And yes it is completely different from Serbs converting to Christianity from weak Pagan religious beliefs. I think that the Serbs conversion to Christianity was mostly confirmed by Ciril & Methodius who spoke the language of the people. They didn’t invade by force. Sveti Sava confirmed this even more with the “Serbian” Orthodox church, all well before Islam arrived. We weren't forced - so that makes your assumptions BS, and as for the enlightenment thing, I take it as an inferiority complex, so I won't bother myself with it. In Sandzak Serbs converted into Bosniaks and in Bosnia Bosniaks converted into Serbs some centuries later, not a big deal. Your were either forced or massively pressured or the son of someone who was.
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Post by bosanskinovi on Nov 21, 2008 12:00:55 GMT -5
80% of Ottoman subjects remained Christians throughout Turkish rule. That would not have been the case had there been any kind of forced conversion.
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Post by bog on Nov 21, 2008 12:24:21 GMT -5
The Ottomans converted people by force in Albania as vengeance for their resistance, in exyu I think most who converted were soldiers, and people who wanted to move up the social ladder. There was a prva, and a druga islamizacija, the prva was of the natives in Bosnia(Catholics), the druga was of Serbs who were soldiers, wanted to get positions etc. At the end of the day, this is ancient history, and I find these arguments about if religion A is better then religion B totally retarded, guess what, they are both foreign to the Balkan-Slavs, they were both brought upon the peasants by either swords or pressure, they are both BS, a bush that burns and talks, a Jew that gets nailed to a cross and lives to talk about it, a merchant that is given a call by God Almighty? Honestly, get over your selfs, to the Serbs who are "bla bla bla, you converted" guess what first of all most where catholics, hell I know from records my family probably was, and yes a lot were also Serbs. Do you think anyone cares? I don't give a crap about if my great great great grandpa chose to follow stupid religion A over stupid religion B, and if he got a tax brake for believing in Allah over Jesus, good for him, I would believe in a magical spaghetti monster if I didn't have to pay taxes for it... You wanna know why the Balkans is so messed up, one of the reasons, people get a hard on, on ancient history, like it is relevant, hell, the only period in our history when things were relatively normal, and I am not that big a fan of that little slovenac, was when he forced you guys to get over your stupid history, and stupid religion, can you eat religion? Can you eat history? Serbs sold out pagan religion, but hey, I guess when one sells out to orthodoxy then its ey okey, but godforbid one is catholic or muslim
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