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Post by radovic on Oct 24, 2007 12:18:15 GMT -5
Nope, majority are MOC, and actually the majority of muslim montes declare Montenegrin language B.S. Majority of Montenegrins in Montenegro or diaspora are not MOC and there are no statistics to prove that. Same thing with how you have no evidence to say Montenegrin Muslims declare their language Montenegrin. As far as I see 26,176 Muslims (does declaring their ethniticity Muslim and those declaring it Bosniak -- they are the same group in my opinion) out of 72,809 in Montenegro declare their languahe Montenegrin, while the 34,078 declare it Bosniak/bosnian (same meaning). Furthermore 11,419 of the Muslims declared their language Serbian.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 24, 2007 12:40:29 GMT -5
you have no evidence to disprove my claims, so dont try
and as far as the diaspora is concerned, people who are by ancestry from montenegro, or more commonly from serbia, who in turn descend from montenegro, and consider their church the SOC, usually see their ethnicity as Serbian, since they have more in common with serb culture than montenegrin, so please dont talk about these wannabes like they're montenegrins
a thing the MOC does, is conserve the montenegrin culture, this is why its strong in places like argentina, vojvodina as well as to a lesser degree in canada and australia
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Post by radovic on Oct 24, 2007 12:44:34 GMT -5
you have no evidence to disprove my claims, so dont try and as far as the diaspora is concerned, people who are by ancestry from montenegro, or more commonly from serbia, who in turn descend from montenegro, and consider their church the SOC, usually see their ethnicity as Serbian, since they have more in common with serb culture than montenegrin, so please dont talk about these wannabes like they're montenegrins a thing the MOC does, is conserve the montenegrin culture, this is why its strong in places like argentina, vojvodina as well as to a lesser degree in canada and australia I am not counting the people. I am counting people actually from montenegro -- more are pro-Serb then anti-Serb. The MOC does not preserve Montenegrin culture it tried to eliminate parts of Montenegrin culture. It is not strong in Argenina, it is strong in the Chaco but not in opther places inhabited by Montenegrins -- like buenos aires. Furthermore, in Vojvodina the MOC is barely functioning and is more a provocation then a genuine movement. Most Montenegrins in Vojvodina are against MOC. Furthermore, a minority of Montenegrins in Montenegro are MOC. I am not aware of any MOC presence in Australia as I know for a fact the MOC does not have widespread support in australia. In Canada, the MOC is only present in Toronto but I'm pretty sure there are more Montenegrins decalring themselves Serbs in Canada then declate themselves Montenegrins.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 24, 2007 12:59:32 GMT -5
Okay, let me put it to you this way, people who are part of the MOC see themselves as Montenegrin, and SOC see themselves as serb, this is the usual case Chaco is where the majority of Montenegrins are in argentina, this is evident in argentinian records Lovcenac is the biggest Monte settlement in Vojvodina, again very evident Excuse me, a 'Provocation'? Well I see the SOC in Montenegro as Provocation, and what do they do besides provoking the Montenegrin people? Aid war criminals.... Heres a little serbian article on Vojvodina's Montes: arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2006/02/05/srpski/R06020401.shtmlAnd the majority in Montenegro are for the MOC and the Montenegrin language, if you dont believe wait for the census and you will see i'm right.
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Post by radovic on Oct 24, 2007 13:08:37 GMT -5
Okay, let me put it to you this way, people who are part of the MOC see themselves as Montenegrin, and SOC see themselves as serb, this is the usual case Chaco is where the majority of Montenegrins are in argentina, this is evident in argentinian records Lovcenac is the biggest Monte settlement in Vojvodina, again very evident Excuse me, a 'Provocation'? Well I see the SOC in Montenegro as Provocation, and what do they do besides provoking the Montenegrin people? Aid war criminals.... Heres a little serbian article on Vojvodina's Montes: arhiva.glas-javnosti.co.yu/arhiva/2006/02/05/srpski/R06020401.shtmlAnd the majority in Montenegro are for the MOC and the Montenegrin language, if you dont believe wait for the census and you will see i'm right. I provided evidence regarding the Muslims. It is a provocation. I know somebody from Lovcenac and they say that the whole thing their is a provocation. They did not start that initiative and only a minority supports it. There are more Montenegrins in Greater Buenos Aires Region then in the Chaco. The majority of Montenegrins are SOC, including those who call themselves Montenegrin. The SOC has been present in Montenegro for many years and the original MOC is part of the SOC. The MOC you support is an illegal institution formed in the 90s. And any evidence that the SOC is actually aiding war criminals, or is that a baseless accusation.\ Clearly we can look at the recent census. In Montenegro 21.96% of the population declares their languahe Montenegrin, Serbian it is 63.46%. Out of people declaring themselves Montenegrin only around 40% say they are Montenegrin speakers. Regarding MOC vs. SOC the census does not establish the figures. But clearly given that the MOC is only present with 1 or 2 shores in Kotor area and the rest being in Cetinje, while the SOC is present thrroughout montenegro. Clearly, the SOC is the dominant church. And you claim the government of Montenegro is pro-MOC yet there is no evidence of this.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 24, 2007 13:30:36 GMT -5
Your "friend" in lovcenac then must be as delusional as you, because lovcenac is heavely MOC-oriented heres a SOC priest(in his priest garments mind you) holding a automatic rifle next to a tank there are many more pictures of SOC priests praying next to pictures of proven war criminals and holding weapons, ect the SOC looks like a more hedious organization than the taliban And you dont have to remind me that there are more "SOC" churches in montenegro than MOC ones because you have no leg to stand on the fact is the people consider themselves MOC, doesnt matter if they go to a SOC, they consider it a MOC Do you truly believe that the MOC believers in montenegro are just going to start building churches and using up all their money and resources? When they know that all the "SOC" churches in Montenegro were once MOC? This is the mindset of a MOC believer now heres what you'll say: "but the majority of people in montenegro support the SOC its the most trusted organization in montenegro" according to what survey? from what time??You must understand that in the balkans things are changing rapidly, people are becoming more and more educated and aware of whats going on around them and in the world. the census from 5 years will vary significantly from this upcoming cencus, this is a giventhe SOC has been losing its support, the news, newspaper articles, magazines, all portraying the SOC in a different, darker light the filaret priest incident was highly used and effective in making people in montenegro look at the SOC with more distrust magazine articles speaking of the SOC's metal church on Rumija, with a helicopter landing pad, making people wonder what is the SOC trying to pull... and even comedy shows basically spitting on amofilije radovic (Tbok, easily the most popular comedy group in MNE)
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Post by radovic on Oct 24, 2007 15:33:59 GMT -5
Your "friend" in lovcenac then must be as delusional as you, because lovcenac is heavely MOC-oriented heres a SOC priest(in his priest garments mind you) holding a automatic rifle next to a tank there are many more pictures of SOC priests praying next to pictures of proven war criminals and holding weapons, ect This was taken during war. When can also find puictures of muslim and catholic religous figures doing the same. Furthermore that pictures proves nothing. It doesn't show them aiding a war criminal. Actually it does. Some one who is MOC is not Orthodox and thus should not be gouing to an SOC. If you go to an SOC for services you must either be a member of the SOC or any other legitimiate Orthodox churches. Must i stress once again that the MOC is not legitimate, it is as uncanonical to Orthodoxy as a Satanist forming a catholic church is. Clearly that is their mind set and the Orthodox law and the law in Montenegro is on the SOC side. The MOC can in no way seize SOC property, end of story. So instead of putting delusion beliefs in the minds of it's followers I suggest the MOC start building it's own churches and removed the word Orthodox from it's name. I never said it was the most trusted. I would say it has majority support. End of story. Clearly. If we follow the trend from 1991 to 2003, there will be a minority of Montenegrins in Montenegro and a majority will call themselves Serbs. And what upcoming census. Censuses are usually held every 10 years, unless montenegro passes a new law to carry out a census earlier there will be no new census until 2013. I could care less. All religions are losing support everywhere. In recent years there has been an increase in criticim of the SOC in Serbia, in RS, of the Catholic Church in Croatia. This is something of a phenomenon happenning throughout Europe and the west with the rist of anti-religion attitudes and militant atheism. That distrust already existed. If anything the Filaret incident shopwed Montenegro as being weak: - 1. montenegro tried to deny him entry on illegal grounds. They didn't even declare persona non-grata, the easiest legal way to deny someone entry. Samething the Mt. Rumija incident. To me it says Montenegrin authorities are weak. And btw I did not like the fact that the SOC did that. By your logic the fact that MOC supporters have several times attacked SOC churches and tried to seize SOC property illegally means that people now also look at the MOC with distrust. Like i said again. Disrespect and distrust of reluigous figures is happebnning everywehre in Europe, so that proves nothing. And Italian policy refused to arrest gay rights activists who were hanging posters calling for the Pope's head on a platter in Napoli? Your point.
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Post by terroreign on Oct 24, 2007 16:35:07 GMT -5
Difference here is that those are the people, while in the SOC's case its the priests who are messing around
the point is you cant find any MOC figures doing anything like this, and thats what the people take into consideration
that trend was started due to serbia's need for more troops and allies, brainwashing montenegrins in order to use them
if you anything about analyzing censuses you'd take it into account that after the Montenegrin independence and the officialization of the Montenegrin language(and soon standarzation), combined with the coming loss of many serbs' montenegro citizenships
you can bet the next census will be in the MOC and Montenegrins' favor once again
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Post by radovic on Oct 25, 2007 9:55:05 GMT -5
One person does not represent a church or a religion. By your logic clerofascists, child molesters, support for drug smugglers symbolize and represent the catholic church. Which they do not.
The picture you showed shows an individual in the SOC doing that, but not the SOC. Indiividuals do not represent whole groups.
Actually you can. Several MOC figures have at time called for the beheadings of SOC officials, however this has not happenned in the last 2 years. MOC figures call for something else illegal -- the confiscation of property. Not only that a former MOC priest was a person who fled Serbia because of a drug debt.
Those Serbs will not lose citizenship, they will choose their citizenship. I doubt a large number, as you claim, will seek it. Not only that no brainwashing occured -- it is just you making unsubstansive facts because fewer and fewer people declare themselves "Montenegrins." I don't care if the language will be officialized, in the enxt census you will not see any large increase in the number of people declaring it as their language.
We'll see. But I seriosuly doubt that.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 10, 2007 13:43:58 GMT -5
Not ignoring much of the glory that befalls the Montenegrins, they weren't an 'unconquored race'. The centre of the Montenegrin bishopry, Cetinje, was captured, if I am not mistaken, several times. One instance I am sure of its capture; it occured during the 1780s, when Karamahmud pasha of Shkodra invaded Montenegro with a large army and marched into Cetinje, subduing much of what was free Montenegro and executing some of the heads of local clans. Montenegrins were also registrated in Ottoman defters, censuses, in the first centuries of Ottoman rule in the Balkans, suggesting very much a subjugation of these highlands.
Other than that, there's not much besides praise left when adressing the Montenegrin resistance.
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Post by radovic on Nov 10, 2007 16:04:43 GMT -5
Not ignoring much of the glory that befalls the Montenegrins, they weren't an 'unconquored race'. The centre of the Montenegrin bishopry, Cetinje, was captured, if I am not mistaken, several times. One instance I am sure of its capture; it occured during the 1780s, when Karamahmud pasha of Shkodra invaded Montenegro with a large army and marched into Cetinje, subduing much of what was free Montenegro and executing some of the heads of local clans. Montenegrins were also registrated in Ottoman defters, censuses, in the first centuries of Ottoman rule in the Balkans, suggesting very much a subjugation of these highlands. Other than that, there's not much besides praise left when adressing the Montenegrin resistance. I think most historians don't count brief periods of occupations. During the napoleonic era the Swiss were occupied by the French (e.g. Helvetic Republic and Act of Mediation) and most historians considered the swiss to be unconquered.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 10, 2007 19:12:58 GMT -5
Not ignoring much of the glory that befalls the Montenegrins, they weren't an 'unconquored race'. The centre of the Montenegrin bishopry, Cetinje, was captured, if I am not mistaken, several times. One instance I am sure of its capture; it occured during the 1780s, when Karamahmud pasha of Shkodra invaded Montenegro with a large army and marched into Cetinje, subduing much of what was free Montenegro and executing some of the heads of local clans. Montenegrins were also registrated in Ottoman defters, censuses, in the first centuries of Ottoman rule in the Balkans, suggesting very much a subjugation of these highlands. Other than that, there's not much besides praise left when adressing the Montenegrin resistance. I think most historians don't count brief periods of occupations. During the napoleonic era the Swiss were occupied by the French (e.g. Helvetic Republic and Act of Mediation) and most historians considered the swiss to be unconquered. Except that having time to register an allegedly 'unconquored' nation is anything but a 'brief occupation'. Don't get me wrong; the Montenegrins did maintain a local level of autonomy for the bigger part of what was the Ottoman era. But so did other areas as well, such as Northern Albania. Nevertheless, there were periods of direct Ottoman rule in Montenegro too. But after the last capture of Cetinje, the Vladikas of Montenegro succeeded in maintaining the region's independence and even incorporating adjacent clans into the new bishopry, such as Kuci & Pipri. From there on, especially with the help of Russian subsidies, diplomacy and direct intervention/s, Montenegro was on an expansionist mode.
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