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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 19, 2008 16:17:10 GMT -5
ilirian123:
I love when you people admit this....... gaining territory and land........ gave up Skadar.......etc etc. Here we go with colonising again.
Well AADMIN ( specially to you as you seems to know a lot about your history) i wish and i really wish that one day my people will take back Ulqin, Hoti, Gruda,Plava,Gucia, Tuz , and my ancient SHPUZA which was taken by very havy force from us, colonised, snatched, taken, grabed. It seems that you never cared about indogenius population there but as the above user said: just gain other territory and expansion of what you never had.
And as for calling Kralj Nikolla a hero well a HERO to me is the one who defend his country and NOT the one who occupy another.
PS: Waiting to be edited as usual.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 19, 2008 16:18:24 GMT -5
On one side there was never a albanian state before 20th century and on the other side Montenegro has a long state history (Dioclea>>Zeta>>Montenegro) and all the areas it took belonged to it in the past. Albanians (kastrati for example) in NW Albania (which was part of Dioclea and Zeta) are clearly closest racially to Montenegro then they are to other Albanians so I would say that these are most likely albanized Montenegrins (Albanian initial influence being most likely Dacian in origin and Albanians today are mostly albanized population that existed in previous Byzantine Epirotic despotate that composed much of todays Albania and western Greece). bellow are some historical maps from www.euratlas.com/800AD 900AD 1000AD 1100AD 1200AD 1300AD (in 1300AD the region was under Rascia/Serbia) 1400AD
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Post by ilirian123 on Mar 19, 2008 16:52:48 GMT -5
This is the funny part of your reply AADMIN ,that the most you can go back is a millenium, and thats all you have. Ok for a moment i'll agree with you just for the sake of topic but hey comon we albanian/illyrians had states on BC for many and many centuries while in the main time you perhapes were in IRAN ( not even in Russia or Ukraine). I did concentrate mostly on the "indogenius population ". On those maps that you showed me , all i can see is tribes arriving and expanding on someone else back,territory,lands,homes. Dominating them, trying to assimilate them , killing them or trying to move them from there. And the serious part of all of this is that Today we are still here, not matter what you want to call it, albanians, dacians,illyrians. We are here so long and will continue to be, while you slavic people keep moving maps as soon as you have a chance, same as Krajl Nikolla did.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 19, 2008 20:19:03 GMT -5
Its nice to see on your first map the tribe of Dragovic (Dragovits) ;D....hey wheres the velesic, vojnic, moravljani or brsjaci tribes?
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 19, 2008 20:21:05 GMT -5
Oh yes, l see the brsjaci are there on the first map known as the bersits
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 20, 2008 18:05:11 GMT -5
Emperor AAdmin you are talking like child without evidence, what if mentioned Doklea? they were just Albanians nothing more...are fact is that montengrin tribes were albanian speaking tribes, good example you have Kuqi in 1614 metionet 100% albanians, today majority are montengrins...you have alot montengrins scholars that say montes are of Arbanasi origin (a.k.a Albanians)
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 20, 2008 18:14:15 GMT -5
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 20, 2008 18:24:45 GMT -5
or read your famous figure Marko Miljanov Popovic what say...
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 20, 2008 20:13:48 GMT -5
^ look at all the maps, there was never an albanian state prior to 1912, they were created as a buffer state to stop serbia from deservedly receiving an outlet to the adriatic.....look at all your cities, they all mean something in serbian.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 20, 2008 22:48:45 GMT -5
reposting from greek forum topic: Origins of Albaniansillyria.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=hellasgreece&action=display&thread=1205895653--------- Back to the topic 1) I have been analyzing some genetic maps (I will post my analysis in several weeks) and combined them with some other info. Kosovo and some corresponding Alb regions seem to have western European genetic impact (via Celts?) in noticeably higher proportions then most of the surrounding Balkan areas. In fact it is so notesible that the major genetic impact in western Balkans (Hercegovina has highest proportions of it) is cut in two because of it as the same extends over Epirus and parts of Greek Macedonia and some other sections of western Greece. It clearly shows territorial interruption that would have most likely entered from N of Kosovo. ( Notice territorial interruption) Haplogroup I1b1* (P37.2) accounts for most of the Haplogroup I component in the Y-chromosome diversity of Eastern European populations, reaching its peak in the Western Balkans, most notably in Dalmatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina (40 - 50%). The high frequency and diversity of Haplogroup I1b1* among populations of the Western Balkans lends support to the hypothesis that the Adriatic region of modern-day Croatia served as a refuge for populations bearing Haplogroup I1b1* during the last glacial maximum. Western Balkan Distribution: Croats 37,0 / Bosnians 53,65 / Hercegovians 70,91 / Serbs 36,28 / Kos Albs 7,96 / SlavMacs 34,17 / Mac Roma 5,26Now 'Celtic' Impact Haplogroup R1b originated prior to or during the last glaciation, when it was concentrated in refugia in southern Europe and the Aegean. It is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe, but has been found at low frequency as far away as Iran and Korea. It is also found in North Africa where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria[3]. In south-eastern England the frequency of R1b is about 70%; in parts of the rest of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, Wales and Ireland, it is as high as 90%; and in parts of north-western Ireland it reaches 98%."Western Balkan Dictribution: Croats 15,70 / Bosnians 1,40 / Hercegovians 3,55 / Serbs 10,62 / Kos Albs 21,10 / SlavMacs 5,06 / Mac Roma 1,752) Linguistically Albanian language shows certain affinities with Romanian (perhaps Dacian substrate) in words found in only these two languages. Celts (Scordisci?) were present in Pannonia and Dacia (they even had a country called Galatia in Anatolia and their movement towards eastern Europe in 3 cen. BC was reported to be upwards of 300,000 people for that time which is relatively numerious) and could have easily intermixed with Dacians which later as perhaps Carpi moved southwards towards present locations in a time frame between 7cent and 11 cent AD where they albanized linguistically locals (N Albania and S Albania). Also I have listened to some Celtic languages from western Europe and soundwise (I am not speaking of Vocabulary but sounds) it has clear similarities with Celtic languages (to give you an idea, they sound gentle and French is Latin with Celtic accent). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpiansen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci3) Insofar it appears (from all the theories I have come across this one appears most plausible) that linguistically Dacian or Celto-Dacian population (Carpi?) might be ancestors or originators of what is now referred to as Albanian language. As they arrived they gradually assimilated (Epirotic and other) locals, grew in numbers over centuries to assume the form we know today. The fact that numbers 1 and 2 above perfectly complement each other is the reason why this appears to be the case. Of course extensive work needs to be done but I do believe that we have starting points.
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Post by montenegrodeki on Mar 21, 2008 4:19:15 GMT -5
Admin, what in your opinion is the origin of Montenegrins, you cleary are a man in the know! Are we the same as the Serbs and Croats, or do we have have some illyrian blood or even Greek. Please note im talking about old Montenegro, before the Serb clans arrived.
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Anthologic
Amicus
"Lord of all Reality"
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Post by Anthologic on Mar 21, 2008 5:01:24 GMT -5
There's no "old montenegro".
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 21, 2008 5:04:37 GMT -5
Aadmin, the gene maps are somewhat the opposites with respects to celts and illyrians (higher incidence of illyrianism lower celtic incidence)
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Post by montenegrodeki on Mar 21, 2008 5:08:43 GMT -5
There's no "old montenegro". I think you will find there is, After the battle of Kosovo the Serbian Clans arrived, with even some old Montenegrin clans incorporating Serbian families, like my clan Pjesivci, incorporated the families of Savicevic, which had Serbian roots.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 21, 2008 10:14:24 GMT -5
"Admin, what in your opinion is the origin of Montenegrins, you cleary are a man in the know! Are we the same as the Serbs and Croats, or do we have have some illyrian blood or even Greek. Please note im talking about old Montenegro, before the Serb clans arrived."
Old Montenegrins were analyzed nicely by Coon in "Races of Europe" and compared with NW Albanians and Dorian Greek tribe of Sfakia in SW Crete (descendants of Dorian invasion of Greece, Dorians also inhabited NW Greece's regions of Epirus and Macedonia. Also the dominant anthropological type found in these regions (called Borreby like type) is basically an exaggerated Epirotic type (Dinaric type is also called Epirotic and Adriatic type) which is prevalent in southern Albania and NW Greece.
In addition, ancient historian Strabo compared Epirus, Macedonia and Illyrian tribes in vicinity of Epirus (southern Illyrians) and stated their similarities in dress, language, religion and culture. Genetic map also follows this line of thinking as the so called 'Illyrian' (probably more logical or more complete name would be 'Illyrian/Dorian' gene) is strong in southern Albania and NW Greece (formerly Dorian regions) .
Thus it would safe to assume that southern Illyrians, Epirotes and Macedonians (also southern Thracians) were all branches of Northern Hellenes (certainly by the time of Alexander the Great who incorporates all of these nations in his troops in his quest to spread the domain of Hellenism across the known world). In short Old Montenegrins (goes of much of southern Slavs, especially mountain regions) are descendants of these early people that went through several linguistic conversions before reaching present times (from initially being Hellenophones, to being romanized and finally to being slavized).
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"Aadmin, the gene maps are somewhat the opposites with respects to celts and illyrians (higher incidence of illyrianism lower celtic incidence)"
On the first glance it appears to be the case (and for the most part you are correct) but the smoking gun is in the statistical data of that particular gene
Western Balkan Dictribution: Croats 15,70 / Bosnians 1,40 / Hercegovians 3,55 / Serbs 10,62 / Kos Albs 21,10 / SlavMacs 5,06 / Mac Roma 1,75
Question is why do Albanians have it more then anyone else? Early Celtic tribes mixed with Dacians(likelier), Saxon miners or intermixing with western European crusaders (all would have these genes)?
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Fender
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Post by Fender on Mar 21, 2008 10:46:04 GMT -5
Aadmin, if this was the case, don't you think that there would be some reminence of the old languages? I know the whole of ex Jugoslavija went throgh a period of the Serbo Croat language being taught in schools, but local dialects would have retained something of the old, in much the same way as in Medjimure in Croatia in which half of mt ancestory live. There dialect is that far removed from normal Croatian that people from Zagreb have a hard time understanding the local lingustics. Medjimure is only 90kms from Zagreb. Not a great distance.
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Anthologic
Amicus
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Post by Anthologic on Mar 21, 2008 10:50:02 GMT -5
There's no "old montenegro". I think you will find there is, After the battle of Kosovo the Serbian Clans arrived, with even some old Montenegrin clans incorporating Serbian families, like my clan Pjesivci, incorporated the families of Savicevic, which had Serbian roots. My bad I was thinking strictly in the Slavic sense (in terms of montenegrin slavs showing up before serb slavs, etc.). And yeah, Byzantines/Romans/Hellenes would all have been hanging around the area.
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 21, 2008 12:04:07 GMT -5
Aadmin, if this was the case, don't you think that there would be some reminence of the old languages? I know the whole of ex Jugoslavija went throgh a period of the Serbo Croat language being taught in schools, but local dialects would have retained something of the old, in much the same way as in Medjimure in Croatia in which half of mt ancestory live. There dialect is that far removed from normal Croatian that people from Zagreb have a hard time understanding the local lingustics. Medjimure is only 90kms from Zagreb. Not a great distance. The entire Adriatic seashore region speaks basically in greco-roman accent and has a heavy Latin linguistic influence noticeable in vocabulary, rhythm and pronunciation. Smooth, fast and melodic accents for example in Serbia and Dalmatia are anything but Slavic in pronunciation (meaning it has absolutely no similarity in sound/ pronunciation/ rhythm with Polish or Russian) and both are Greco-Roman in accent,rhythm and pronunciation. Montenegro also has multitude of Greek (also Latin words) used especially as relating for village life or house life. The words also are often pronounced in a manner in which greco-roman speaker would likely adapt to slavic speech and not in original slavic manner (examples: Ja sam 'b io', 'vid io', 'rad io', Vi ' ste' , Ja sam d ao are some of the examples) while our ikavica and ekavica are most natural manner in which former greco-roman speaker would adapt to slavic cpeech (as it far easier to say melodic 'lepo' or 'lipo' for a greco-roman speaker then harsher sounding slavic 'ljepo' or 'ljiapo' and that natural tendency might be to move towards ikavica or ekavica over time - Montenegrin speech has at times that tendency towards ikavica). Slavic accents can be found more in places like central Bosnia, Pannonia and Slovenia or regions where racial and cultural impact of Slavs was far stronger then in more desolate and uninviting mountain regions to the south which served as refuge regions for older populations Slavs found there (but managed over time to slavize by controlling valleys and rivers and locations of vital and strategic significance and thus commerce ). Also SlavoMacedonian and Bulgarian are grammatically influenced by Greek as well as in vocabulary, accent and pronunciation (especially Vardar region) as can be seen in the manner in which certain words are pronounced such as Avtonomia (which is a typical Greek manner in which such word would be proniounced). Moreover, it is very interesting. Like Bulgarian, its closest relative, Macedonian has got a definite article (due to Greek influence) placed at the end of the noun. Macedonian has got a number of features that are unique among the Slavic languages. These features include the loss of cases in nouns, adjectives and pronouns; a suffixed definite article (with three forms in Macedonian, as in the examples knigava, meaning "the book near me"; knigata, meaning "the book"; and knigana, meaning "the book over there"); and a large variety of verb tenses. The verb also has witnessed and nonwitnessed forms. Like Bulgarian and Serbian, Macedonian has a large number of borrowings from the Turkish language and a significant number from the Greek language. indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/macedonian2.html----- " 1. On the other hand, as in Croatian, there are plenty of Italian loanwords in the coastal vernaculars (in Spič, Paštrovići, Boka Kotorska, Dubrovnik area and at Kvarner coast), as well as in the vernaculars near the coаst. In some Croatian vernaculars, Italian loanwords made up to 40-50% of the vernacular vocabulary in the 1930s. Most common are words borrowed from Venetian (brancin, altroke, ardura, karonja ('lazy man'), pršut(a)). Some toponyms such as Budva and Boka Kotorska ('bay of Kotor') are borrowed from Venetian. 2. In the coastal area, many words were borrowed from the Dalmatian language (murina, imbut), a Romance language, that was extinct by 1900. Many toponyms were also borrowed from Dalmatian (Kakrc, Luštica, Lovćen, Sutomore< Sancta Maria).[11]" # Greek loanwords were very common in Old Serbian (Serbian-Slavonic). Some words are present and common in modern vernaculars in central Serbia (and also in other areas) and in the standard language: hiljada (хиљада), tiganj (тигањ), patos (патос), Ɖak (ђaк), livada (ливада), miris (мириc), svirati (cвиpaти). Almost every word of the Serbian Orthodox ceremonies are in Greek language (parastos (парастос)).[13] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language#Vocabulary-------
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 21, 2008 14:22:08 GMT -5
Boban Rajovic Piroman 2007 - Usne boje vina
*Song in a pure Montenegrin (accent, pronunciation and rhythm) (Old or southern Montenegro)(Places like accent such as Podgorica or Cetinje)
Ena Popov 2007 - Cokolada
*Serbian accent (Belgrade)
Parni Valjak, Moja je Pjesma Lagana
*Croatian accent (Zagreb)
Crvena Jabuka - Dirlija
*Bosnian accent (Sarajevo)
Edo maajka - Bomba
*Bosnian accent (Brcko)
Miso Kovac - Dalmacija u mom oku
*Dalmatian accent (Sibenik)
Mate Bulić-Da nije Mostar-a
*Hercegovina accent (western Croat region)
Krunoslav Kico Slabinac - Slavonski becarac
*Slavonija in NE Croatia (also Vojvodina in N Serbia = almost same culture)
Šank rock - Senca sebe
*Slovenia (NW Croatia has almost the same language) (language most similar to Chech and Slovak language)
Karolina Goceva vs Elena Risteska - Part 2
*SlavoMacedonia (Skopje)
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Post by terroreign on Mar 22, 2008 3:20:17 GMT -5
Anthologic - Montenegrin slavs did show up before serb slavs
The latter entering the balkans in the early 7th century, while the montenegrin slavs came in the mid 5th
And on another note, Aadmin Boban's song is not exactly Zeta-Sandjak/Old Montenegrin dialect, notice how he says "ko mimoza" instead of "ka mimoza", and "djevojcice" instead of "đevojcice"
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