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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 22, 2008 4:51:49 GMT -5
" Moreover, it is very interesting. Like Bulgarian, its closest relative, Macedonian has got a definite article (due to Greek influence) placed at the end of the noun. Macedonian has got a number of features that are unique among the Slavic languages. These features include the loss of cases in nouns, adjectives and pronouns; a suffixed definite article (with three forms in Macedonian, as in the examples knigava, meaning "the book near me"; knigata, meaning "the book"; and knigana, meaning "the book over there"); and a large variety of verb tenses. The verb also has witnessed and nonwitnessed forms. Like Bulgarian and Serbian, Macedonian has a large number of borrowings from the Turkish language and a significant number from the Greek language."
Exactly right, could not have said it better myself. Because both the slavs of vardaria and bulgaria lived in close to the hellenic speakers their slavic lanuage evolved to include definite articles which all slavic languages do not have.......the next closest lanuage to west bulgarian branch would be torlakian.
Lingustic oases were found that resembled slovenian, places like meglen or edessa where the locals understood slovenians better than either serbs (serbo-croat lanuage) or bulgarians.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 22, 2008 20:54:05 GMT -5
Aadamin exposed:
I agree to an extent: it's not Romanian language but proto-Romanian and it is Thraco-Dacian (which means more affinities with the Thracians than Dacian!
very interesting theory, only that the assimilation and the Albanisation is a little doubtful because Albanian language has mixtures elements with Greek and Latin! Any linguistic evidence as to prove the theory?
I would need some more evidences as to start thinking about it!
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 23, 2008 13:59:37 GMT -5
reposting from GF (perhaps some points to be considered) ---------- Arxileas:
Slavic place names in Albania are historically recorded but NO Albanian place names before the Slavic ones are in existent ?!
But geuss what Niklianos, Albania and the Caucasus region have identical place-names Coincidence
Just a few, of the many identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus to note:
Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti (Turks and Balkan peoples call Albanians by this name; likely from arch. Turk: Arran) Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe) Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.) Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea) Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish") Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura") Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria
Coincidence
Some things to consider or look into :
1) The Albanians were never mentioned in Byzantine, (not even of the works by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus), Arab, Armenian or any other texts before the 12th cent.
2) Albanian language is classified as an IE language only because no one has been able to classify it into any other group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasus languages.
Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language. Many Albanian words do sound Indo- European, because Albanian has borrowed over 80% of its vocabulary, more than any other European language.
The Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.
The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". see: CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Ti Les Nikilianos
3) Their alphabet interestingly enough, had Arabic letters untill 1908 when the alphabet they use today was adopted.
4) The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
5) The Adriatic coast may have not been part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.
6) Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
7) The fact that Albanian is totally alien to the Illyrian language based on the Messapic inscriptions found in tombs.
8) The Illyrian city names mentioned in ancient times that were kept do not follow the Albanian sound change laws, suggesting that they were late borrowing from an intermediary language (most likely Romance or Slavic), rather than inherited (for example ancient Aulona should have been inherited in modern Albanian as Alor? instead of Vlore.
9) Ptolemy in Book 5 chapter 15 titled "Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia" (The Fifth Map of Europe)
Never mentions the alleged "albanopolis" that they support he has, and can be found at 46 degrees and 41 degrees 45', but when you look up what he really has writen, you find the city of Thermidava.
10) Out of a list of 40-50 Illyrian city names known to us only 2-5 of the Albanian city names can be connected to them.
11) There is NO MEMORY!!! of the Illyrian past in the Albanian cultural heritage.
12) Hard evidence is the Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, they indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.
13) The first Albanian dictionary was published in 1635 and contained only 5,000 words, when today any pocket dictionary contains at least 250.000 proving that their language was still under development.
Just some of it for now. If I decide to or not to publish more findings that will be up to me.
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Post by PrijesDardanian on Mar 23, 2008 14:39:09 GMT -5
Emperor AAdmin what do you mean? this joke article was from serbian member of this psycho Hajduke in old forum, have you been in old forum yes or not? those are fake and pretty funny you here just proved you are pretty naive...and you dont know nothing about history.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 23, 2008 19:45:19 GMT -5
The majority of the toponyms in the Balkans are of Greek and Roman origin with the exception of some settlements with very ancient names, for example, Singidunum, the Scordian name for Belgrade, but this is completely understandable given the long duration of established Greek and Roman themes or provinces in the Balkans. Since it is the relationship between Albanian and Slavonic toponymy which interests us, however, we shall devote the following pages to this. Let us repeat, citing yet one more source, the fact about Illyrian illiteracy: "Since the IIlyrians and Dardan did not develop literacy in their language the only written memorials of theirs which remain to us are Greek and Roman inscriptions on stone..." 21 This will make it easier for us to understand the above-cited detail that the predominant toponomy was Graeco-Roman. With the penetration of the Slav tribes, however, in the main starting from the fifth century AD, Slav toponyms spread more and more, reaching also to the south of the Balkans. By the ninth century, a great part of present day Albania was already covered with Slav, mostly Serbian, toponyms. We will show the extent and duration of this phenomenon according to the results of our investigations which demanded much patience but which enabled us to gather an imposing number of several hundred Slav toponyms in Albania from maps (scale 1:100,000 & 1:200,000) of the 1920s and 1930s. We rejected all those toponyms which underwent linguistic change, that is, Albanization, whereby the Slav form was altered in its outward expression. In order to avoid any confusion we have retained only those names whose form still shows today their origin and there are over three hundred of these "pure" toponyms which we shall now list. Baba Babin Babinja Babja Balaban Banja Bastare Bastrice Bezani + Belgrad Belice Belje Belove Belovode Berzeste Bistric Biserka Bistrica Bistrice Blace Bobostice Bodin Bodriste Bordani Borici Borje Borova + Borovjani Bradosnica Bratomira Breska Bresnik Brezdan Brostani Budisa Bukmira Buzgara Valjana Valjusa Varvara Veles Veljcan Gora Vernica + Vila Vodica Vojnika Vrakule Vranista Vranista Vrepska Vulcani Gabrica Gajtani Glava Gline Golem Golemi + Golik Goloberdo Goljovisti Gorica Goroselj Gostiviste + Grabom Grabova Grabove Grabovice Grabovo + Gradac Gradec Gradiste Gradiskije Grazdani Grazdenik Graliste Gracen Gracani Grace Grozdani Gruda Darda Debrova Desmira Dobra Dobric Dobruna + Dragan Dragavoja Draginje Dragobija Dragostun Dragove Dragus Draci Dracove Drasovice Drenove Drovjani Drugana Dusmani + Dvoran Oeriste Zepa Zupiste Zagora Zagorican Zagradec Zagradi Zagradcani Zapat Zaradiste Zavaljan Zvezda Izviri Izgara Izgoralec Jablanit Janjan Jezerces Jerka Jubica Kamare Kamenica + Kamicani Kamnik + Kapica Karista Kasarna Kilaziste Klena Klenja Klisari Kovaci Kovaciste + Kovacica Korite Kosan Kosina Kosmaci Kosovec Kosovo Kosteni Kostenja Kostican Kotor Kosarista + Kosovica Krajni Krasta Krstac Kula Lepusa Leskova Leskoviku Leskovinu Lesnica Lestice Livadasi Livadi Likova Lisan Lovina Lozani Logavista Lopusa Lubinja Ljesani Ljivadi Ljubonje + Mali Mucalj Maliseva Malibarde Malina Manastirec Memlista Mecka Milica Miljusi Mirovna Mocani Moglice Mogra Monastir Negovani Nepravista + Niksi + Nikolara Nikolica Nikoijica Nivice Novasela Novoselo Oblika Osojna Padina Pastani Pepeli Pestani Plana + Plovista Podgora Podgorani Podgori Podgoria Podgradec Pogradec Pojata + Polidani Poposina Porobani Potkozani Prekal Prekali Prenista Prodani Radan Radicina Radimiste Radimniste Rajce + Rahovice Rastan Rec Redi Recit Rodokalj Rovica Sama Sanista Sebista Selca Selec Seleka Selence Selenica + Sepetova Slabinje Slatina + Slova Sopot Sovjani St. Javore Stani Staravec Stare Starov Starova + Stebilova Stranik Strelca Suha Suhodoli Sv. Dimitrije Ternova Topljana Torovica Trasani Trebinje Treske Tresova Trosan Tuceni Ulova Uljmiste Ustinje Cerkovica Cernjeva Catiste Cesme Coban + Siroka Sistevac Skola Stit Sticeni Sumica (the + sign alongside the name of a place indicates that the same name appears on the maps two or more times for different places). We have already pointed out to our readers the fact that a not inconsiderable part of the fabric of the Albanian people is woven from the Slav people so that such a large number of Slav toponyms should come as no surprise. However, this is not a complete list of Slav, that is, Serbian toponyms. I have already said that only those forms which today point to a Serbian origin are given so that I draw the reader's attention to a precise map marked with Serbian toponyms on Albanian soil composed by the Bulgarian academic, A. Selisgev, for his book Slavyanskoe naselenie v Albanii, Sofia, 1931 and which was republished in the anthology Iliri i Albanci by the Serbian Academy of Arts & Sciences (SANU), Belgrade. 1988, p. 230. The knowledge that for decades the Albanian authorities have claimed there is no Serbian national minority in Albania, however, will probably remain an open wound for Serbs and probably the chasm born of these marked contradictions will continue to stimulate hurtful and painful memories of an altered and lost part of the Serbian people. With regard to Kosovo and Metohia, on the other hand, for which we have given detailed demographic and statistical data, the situation is different to an unbelievable degree. Namely, in that area there is not one single toponym whose origin could be found in the Albanian language. All of the toponyms in that area which in historical literature was designated as Old Serbia are either Serbian or Slavicised Roman names and the Shiptars who live there today call some villages either by names translated into Albanian or use some Turkish names arising from the time when these regions were under Turkish rule. This unique and indisputable fact that there are no Albanian toponyms in Kosovo and Metohia evidently does not fit in with the numerous demands, statements and wishes of the secessionist parties and chauvinistic Shiptars and Albanians because they have always constantly avoided this theme. www.kosovo.net/history/kosovo_origins/ko_chapter13.html"I thought the form of some of those Greek words did not exist in the Greek language, but okay, whatever. I guess you could try to explain the Romanian and Albanian words that the two languages share in common. Romanians and Albanians had no contact after 1200, but I'm not sure if those Vlachs could've given some of those words to them. The scholars agree that those words are Romanian, i.e. Daco-Romanian, not Romanian south of Danube." Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D. they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrls). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with serbian and macedonian toponyms. Just as an example I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others. VD: - In the macedonian community little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this? www.unitedmacedonians.org/macedonia/kaplan_english.html
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 23, 2008 20:12:30 GMT -5
You guys make up your mind: where did we come from? Caucasus (Albanians) or from North (as Celts) or South America???
I want to believe (since the issue it's very hard to track) the fourth option: Albanians were here.
Let's suppose that we came from some other place. Since there is no evidence to prove the Albanian's migration, that means that we came either before the "starting of time" and the writing wasn't invented yet; or if we came after the writing started recording, then something should have been documented, which is not the case! If we came from Caucasus or if we're Celtic, we should have left someone there as to speak the language or preserve the traditions, because when people migrate they always leave behind some other members and they keep on speaking the same language. Or....more reasoning...if the language disappeared but there are some affinities with the Albanians of Caucasus pertaining to toponyms, then the migration could have happened indeed "before the starting of time"!!! The result: we have been here when the time started.
The question to Albanian issue is somehow wrong: I oppose the question: where did Albanians come from, because it doesn't leave options except the fact that Albanians "came"!
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Post by Novi Pazar on Mar 23, 2008 20:53:24 GMT -5
^ it could end up being anatolia (from Dardenelles to Dardani).
The illyrian theory Teuta, is a suspect theory, there could be some truths to it but its completely void to explain the shqiptar throughly.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 23, 2008 23:50:59 GMT -5
Well, not the alphabet, the grapheme only...not the letters nor the sounds! Thus not the phonemes; I know the contrary; I would also need some examples here. Discussed it already! Albanians may have had it and forgot it since were forced to live in Mountains for centuries. Insignificant? ?? I am going crazy here!!! Anybody speak both Greek and Albanian as to tell me that I shouldn't get crazy because what is being claiming is the truth??? 7) The fact that Albanian is totally alien to the Illyrian language based on the Messapic inscriptions found in tombs. What tombs??? What Illyrian Language??? Where? ? TOTALLY alien? ?? I don't know about that. Read Cabej! To my opinion, is Avlona - Vlora and the r is very well explained in Albanian as a tendency to get transformed from N-L to R. We must have a look at that book again...can anybody bring it here? I don't know what to say here. Albanians may have been one tribe of Illyrians not all of them! And considering the Albanian dialects (Gheg and Tosk) and their eldest form, also the dialects Illyrians' tribes must have spoken...I don't think anyone is qualified to conclude here!!! Myths, Legends, rituals and Folk...are not memory??? really?
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Post by toskali4springbrk on Mar 24, 2008 1:28:02 GMT -5
Gheg, which I believe is the older dialect, says Vlone.
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Post by srbobran on Mar 24, 2008 10:36:35 GMT -5
None of this matters. Genetic testing shows, overwhelmingly in our favor, that Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks are the direct descendants of the Illyrians. Not only that, but we are supplemented with huge evidence considering that Serbs called themselves and were called Illyrians up until the 19th century. If are Slavs, why do we look nothing like the Slavs of Russia and Poland? Why do we have the fewest Slavic haplogroups in the Balkans?
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Post by srbobran on Mar 24, 2008 10:49:47 GMT -5
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Post by srbobran on Mar 24, 2008 10:51:09 GMT -5
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Post by srbobran on Mar 24, 2008 10:51:30 GMT -5
"Тако древный оный Языкъ Славенскїй въ Славенносербскихъ во Iллvрикh церквахъ (кромh прочихъ Народовъ Славенскихъ Греческаго Исповhданїя) и до нынh процвhтаетъ, а Iллvрическїй, то естъ простое нарhчїе или дїалект Сербскїй въ свhтскихъ дhлахъ употребляется. Славяни же Iллvрическїй Римскаго Закона яко нарhчїе древнее, тако и писмена Славенская отвергли, доволствующеся точїю дїалектомъ простимъ, которїю Iллvрическимъ нарицаютъ, и въ мhсто писменъ Славенскихъ. Римскїя литери употребляти начали въ началh сего столhтствїя."
('Illyrian': Tako se drevni onaj jezik Slavenski u Slavenosrpskim crkvama u Iliriku (izuzev inih Naroda Slavenskih Grčke Ispovesti) do danas održao, a Ilirski, to jest prosto narečje ili dijalekt Srpski, upotrebljava se u svetovnim stvarima. Slavjani pak Ilirski Rimskog Zakona, koji su narečje drevno i pismo Slavensko odbacili, zadovoljavaju se samo dijalektom prostim, Ilirskim, kojim govore, i mesto pismena Slavenskih, Rimska litera upotrebljavaju već stolećima.
(English: And so the ancient Slavonic language remained in Slavic-Serbian churches in Illyricum (and with other Slavic Nations of Greek Confession) until today, and Illyrian, that is common Serbian speech or dialect, is used in secular affairs. Illyrian Slavians of Roman Confession, although having abandoned the ancient dialect and Slavic letters, are satisfied with the common dialect, the Illyrian dialect, which they speak, and instead of Slavic letters have been using Roman letters for centuries.)[/quote]
Notice the right side and the Wolf with the arrow in its head. This was named the "Coat of Arms of Triballia". Triballia was an ancient Illyrian Kingdom. The Byzantines exclusively called Serbs the Triballi.
Unknown Archont--->Archont of the Triballi Tzar Dusan-----> King of Tribals and Greeks Prince Mihajlo----->Ting of Tribals
These are all Byzantine references to the Triballian name for Serbs.
Here is an interesting text, although I am not sure I agree with it.
This is just a fraction of the stuff I have. I have much more in Serbian which I will translate.
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Post by Teuta1975 on Mar 24, 2008 17:58:17 GMT -5
If you look deeper, I think you'll find out that Serbs are Pelasgians or Greeks!
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Boško Buha
Amicus
Istina Je Nasa Snaga, Pravda Nasa Sudbina, Ljubav Nasa Nada, Mir Nasa Poruka A BOSNA Nasa Domovina
Posts: 385
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Post by Boško Buha on Mar 24, 2008 19:19:01 GMT -5
Plav i Gusinje greatest cities in Montengro!
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Post by montenegrodeki on Mar 26, 2008 6:09:06 GMT -5
Is Emperor AAdmin of Montenegrin decent?
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Post by terroreign on Mar 26, 2008 15:05:48 GMT -5
Yes I believe he said once he descends from the Zeta area
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Mar 26, 2008 23:45:48 GMT -5
My old/original nickname Zetaman/Zecanin was inspired by the river Zeta by which I was raised (Bjelopavlici) and yes I am of Montenegrin decent.
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Post by podgoricanin on Mar 27, 2008 0:19:20 GMT -5
My old/original nickname Zetaman/Zecanin was inspired by the river Zeta by which I was raised (Bjelopavlici) and yes I am of Montenegrin decent
^ Bjelopavlici Emp! Pa meni sa majcine strane svi su blizo zete.......Bogetice(na trke) Tunjevo, Zagorak, Kujava, Frutak....etc...
Tuda sam hiljadu puta prolazio, i se kupao na zetu, i na glavu zete
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Post by Arxileas on Mar 27, 2008 4:26:44 GMT -5
Interesting...
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