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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 2, 2009 5:22:16 GMT -5
Islam didnt make it more chaotic... it organized it. Ottomans, in a way, (and I will be attacked by my compatriots here) civilized Albanians. Tosk Albanians that it, since Ghegs never allowed the Ottomans to undermine their old habits. Ghegs remained secluded and far from Ottoman society, even the Muslim ones didnt accept Ottoman intrusion. Tosk Albanians, we settled into cities through them through greater centralization, we stopped migrating and picked up plows, true Albanian literature began under the now forgotten Bejtexhinje. Islam helped organize the Albanian identity and introduced it to a new paradigm that has been a part of us since.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 2, 2009 5:24:56 GMT -5
Ore, how free can you be when you are tied with such slavish bonds with a...chief that can deside for your religion, your migration etc etc etc? Go check your dictionaries what "freedom" means...
Freedom spirit is that when a nazi conquers your country you don't become SS....when a fasisto italiano conquers your country you don't join in legioni....and when osman comes you don't get islamized and ottomanized...
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 2, 2009 5:27:54 GMT -5
Oh and dont you know, for ancient Greeks and Romans, the more primitive the society, the more pure and moral they were... and closer to the gods. Dionysus and Poseidon favored the Ethiopians, they loved to party with those people, Apollo had his favored Hyperboreans. Greeks themselves were 'closer' to the Gods when they lived under a system similar to the ones Albanians had in the middle ages: the Homeric period, where a basileus was not a monarch, but a man of importance, who attained his position not through birthright, but by his own actions. Oh and Romans and Greeks would have admired a system whereby a man ruled by gathering a follow rather than inheriting it. Just read Tacitus' GermaniaIt may have been admirable 2000-2500 years ago...not 3-5 centuries ago...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 2, 2009 5:44:02 GMT -5
Ore, how free can you be when you are tied with such slavish bonds with a...chief that can deside for your religion, your migration etc etc etc? Go check your dictionaries what "freedom" means... Freedom spirit is that when a nazi conquers your country you don't become SS....when a fasisto italiano conquers your country you don't join in legioni....and when osman comes you don't get islamized and ottomanized... A chieftain has the influence to get others to come with him. His power is not coercive. Because he converts doesnt mean the rest do. Sure, now, converted, he might feel renewed sense of faith and want to influence the rest into it, but the Albanians under him do it because they feel that his influence is big. IF he makes a certain decision that he deems right, they will see it as right aswell. Freedom spirit is to do what you feel. The SS was made of volunteers, not Albanians coerced into fighting. Germans only went around and tried to get Albanians to join. How successful it was depended on the attitude of the people. Albanians who joined the SS joined because : a)they wanted heavy guns and b) they hated Slavs/Communists and wanted to join in the war against them. The SS failed since most Albanians deserted only months after joining, once they had their guns. The rest fought all the way up to Berlin, side by side with the Germans. Secondly, Italian propaganda videos not withstanding. The Italian legion of Albanians were never a big group. Majority of Albanians remained in the rural mountains and attacked any Italian who approached their zones. Even the Ballists were split on this, many saying that the Fascist was the enemy. Whats more, Albania had a Partisan movement in the south, and a monarchist movement in central Albania. Both large and both attacked the German and Italians. You dont have the knowledge of Albanian history during WWII to comment on anything. As for the Ottoman thing, thats only your perception of 'freedom', one which I do not share. And what was the politismos in Greece 300-500 years ago for the average peasant? Voting at the pnyx? ;D Attending political rhetorical speeches? An organized democratic process? Or what the Papa said is law?
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Patrinos
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Peloponnesos uber alles
Posts: 4,763
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Post by Patrinos on Aug 2, 2009 5:53:09 GMT -5
Ok....lets say that Greece conquers Albania...( ...and many Albos(grekomans... join the Greek tagmata...and many other convert to orthodoxy...and take names like Stavro, Dhimitraqi,Yianni,Kosta etc etc...what you would say for them(i mean you personally...)?? Of course all would be volunteers...being grekomans.
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PARIS DIO_MYSUS!
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It's Nice to be Important but It's more Important to be Nice!
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Post by PARIS DIO_MYSUS! on Aug 2, 2009 11:49:54 GMT -5
PS.Mysia I thought you had the telepathic power to understant it...... I was 2 months old when my father decided to circumcised myself in hospital. That is not my fault and there was not any connection with turk osman baba.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 2, 2009 13:33:37 GMT -5
Ok....lets say that Greece conquers Albania...( ...and many Albos(grekomans... join the Greek tagmata...and many other convert to orthodoxy...and take names like Stavro, Dhimitraqi,Yianni,Kosta etc etc...what you would say for them(i mean you personally...)?? Of course all would be volunteers...being grekomans. We already have those names in Albania. I would oppose it because of my hatred for your people. But different case, the Ottomans lasted 500 years, peoples conceptions of themselves change in such time, their values also change and identity changes as well... Not to mention that the Ottomans were a multicultural world empire, Greece would just be invading Albania. Also, there was no Albania then, only clan interests. Any clan wanted an upper hand over another clan. If one clan converts, it will leave the other one in the dirt since it will have a world empire on its side.
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