Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 16, 2009 21:09:47 GMT -5
Leshte...
The Romans ruled it for 1000 years? Where when what planet? If you are insinuating the Byzantine Empire was a Roman Entity I beg to differ..you know god damn well what it was.... You don't need me to tell you... It's not my fault you and your ilk were not mentioned in it's written history...
WTF cares about Romans? Macedonians were Greek and Greece is Greek....
Romans didn't speak Albanian... your post is nothing more than a pathetic attempt at insulting the Greeks.. nice try ....but you pegged the needle on my bullchit meter...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 16, 2009 21:19:48 GMT -5
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 16, 2009 22:11:32 GMT -5
I have never touched Donnei's posts... and he knows it..in fact I rarely do anyone's...
Melturk,you are a sick puppy and you are trying to destabilize this place..make it easy on yourself and take a break... I know school is starting pretty soon and you got pressure and anxieties building up... take a break..
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 16, 2009 22:36:08 GMT -5
Going back to school in a week. Cant wait. I despise the neighborhood I live in. Hitting the books, college parties.... I need them, they take the stress off like nothing else. All I did this summer was go to the gym...
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 16, 2009 22:58:23 GMT -5
The gym is good if you are dedicated and follow a program... my kid is into that and he has made remarkable progress..he is in his 3rd year now..
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Post by leshte on Aug 17, 2009 0:03:18 GMT -5
Kanaris couldn't you have found a better looking human specimen for your avatar? That's one fuggly human being.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 17, 2009 0:07:16 GMT -5
It;s King Kong Bundy of WWE fame... he died of a heart attack a few years back.... like most of the WWE wrestlers....
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Post by leshte on Aug 17, 2009 0:13:25 GMT -5
Can I suggest you use this instead. Its more pleasing to the eye.
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Post by telemaqueii on Aug 17, 2009 2:16:40 GMT -5
The gym is good if you are dedicated and follow a program... my kid is into that and he has made remarkable progress..he is in his 3rd year now.. for once I agree, this is partly how I get rid off my stress. Some musculation. I did it when I was student, then stopped. You pass a whole day sit down in front of a computer, you go home and eat, eat, eat... I started again some 3 months ago. It is an advice I give to everyone. I tought it was a s**tty sport, but doctors also advice it. You become stronger, lose fat, you feel more happy and at ease in a good body... but beside it is also important to learn and read some books, history,... in order for example to get also a head in good shape and avoid some non-sens such as Ancient Macedonians were Greek.
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Post by Kastorianos on Aug 17, 2009 4:29:17 GMT -5
Only an ignorant calls the Byzantines "Romans" meaning..."Roman Romans"...the Byzantine Empire was an out and out Greek Empire. And the "Romaioi" were Greeks. No historian doubts that.
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Post by telemaqueii on Aug 17, 2009 4:45:31 GMT -5
Only an ignorant calls the Byzantines "Romans" meaning..."Roman Romans"...the Byzantine Empire was an out and out Greek Empire. And the "Romaioi" were Greeks. No historian doubts that. don't we say eastern roman empire ? l'empire romain d'orient...which is not greek only but bulgarian, armenian, albanian, serbian, etc... a wonderful empire destroyed by turks because of christian stupidity...what only few are aware about is that before the assault on Byzantium, many muslims were hired to defend the city against westerners. Many guardians, soldiers...the same one who served under Byzance, helped the osmanli empire to conquer the city later. They had info's about everything ! Christian war and untrust among each other led the turks to their victory...the same goes that way with Arabes when they lost jerusalem; they were not united until Salah-Al-Din-Yussuf
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Post by telemaqueii on Aug 17, 2009 7:53:25 GMT -5
I've seen greeks have stuff like that as signature as well. I'm sure you wouldn't mind that either. Having said that before I google and find it; any of you Albanian photoshop artists here care to create something so I can put it on my Avatar and signature. The nature of the art should contain something that is offensive to Greeks. The experiment's goal is to see how long the Greeks can go with their hypocrisy. The more offensive the quicker the goals will be accomplished. I will also accept art forms involving FYROM and their plight to be recognized as Macedonia. I can photoshop something if you need, but I would rather prefer that we all use the same one :
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Post by Kastorianos on Aug 17, 2009 8:05:02 GMT -5
No, it was an out and out Greek empire. All Bulgarian, Serbian and Armenian elements were graecized. Albanian elements did not exist back then...you developed much later...
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donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
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Post by donnie on Aug 17, 2009 8:12:01 GMT -5
Of course the Albanian elements existed, though they weren't perhaps as integrated within the Byzantine empire as the rest. And the Byzantine empire was an heir to the Roman empire, its population being a mosaic of many ethnicities and peoples. To say it was simply Greek is to simplify matters, though clearly Greek language and personalities came forth as the most dominating group as time went on ... the smaller the empire got, the more Greek in character. But its emperors clearly saw themselves as Romans, heirs to the ancient Roman empire, hence the very use of the term "Romioi" ... the ethnonym Ellhnes wasn't even in use during this period, and was often discarded as smth pagan and unwanted. There was even a bishop named Jenidhi who declared "I am Christian, not Greek" which is rather explanatory in itself.
It took quite some time for the old Latin hierarchal terms and lingo to be replaced by Greek equivalents like sebastokrator, despot, basileios and so on. And as I said, it increased the more the empire shrank. And as somebody else mentioned, a great list of emperors but also generals, governors, bishops, administrators and so on were non-Greek in origin, i.e. Illyrians, Goths, Slavs, Armenians, Isaurians etc ... like Herakleios, John Tzimiskes, Basil I, Romanos I, Zeno, Leo III, Justinian, Justin, Constantine himself, and so on and so on, just mentioning the emperors ....
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Post by Kastorianos on Aug 17, 2009 11:44:56 GMT -5
And the Byzantine empire was an heir to the Roman empire, its population being a mosaic of many ethnicities and peoples.[/img] Regarding the heir...thats what the emperors did always claim in opposite to the western kingdoms of Europe...especially the Holy Roman Empire which did as well claim to be the successor of the Roman Empire. So this external self-identification as Romans had clearly power-political reasons in the first place. Being accepted as Roman meant being the original and better Christian...and that was a very important matter back then. Also keep in this context the schism of 1054 in mind which was preceded by perpetual dogmatic arguments between the latin and Greek church. It was all about legitimation. But in fact the empire did more and more (in the first centuries already) develop into a Greek empire. Very early the emperors were Grecophone only...the laws were exclusively in Greek as well...the whole administration...and courts. So we had a clearly Greek state. More Greek was not possible. Todays Greece is not less Greek than the Byzantine Empire...its just much smaller. Regarding the ethnic background of the people. Of course it was ethnically a mixture of some few peoples but the peoples of today are nothing else...yet no one questions the Greekness of Greeks...or the Turkness of Turks etc. People that did not speak Greek were graecized...means they adopted the Greek language and converted-if neccessary- to Greek orthodoxy. And so we had in the end a people that was ethnically divers..but culturally unitary. In contrast to today it was not important to present yourself as an ethnically pure nation...these are post 1800 dreams that did not exist back then...no one cared in fact. And something else...the modern Greek state should have based its identity and legitimation on the Byzantine Empire in my opinion and not ancient Greece. Modern Greeks are nothing else than the Byzantine people that did in the course of Ottoman rule not convert to Islam or got part of other Balkan nations (i.e. especially other Balkanian ones like Serbian, Bulgarian or Albanian). We are the last remnants of the Byzantine Empire's people.
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Post by leshte on Aug 17, 2009 21:54:15 GMT -5
You're claiming too much there dude. But you're greek what can you expect. They speak English in Nigeria. They use english to write laws in Zambia. Doesn't mean they're Brittish. Greek was the language people used at that time like English is today. Simple as that.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 17, 2009 22:17:25 GMT -5
First, I dont know why in the fuk there is all this interest in the Byzantines. A dead empire for more than 500 years and impotent and pathetic for over 200 before then. An overly conservative, closed-minded and religious state.
The Byzantine Empire was about as Greek as pre-1800 Ottoman Empire was Turkish. In both cases the Emperor/Sultan at Constantinople/Istanbul was the sole owner of all and everything that the empire controlled. Beneath the emperor were subject people, be they modern day Greek, Serb, Albanian, Bulgarian etc etc. Like any empire, the ethnicity of the people were of no significance, what mattered was how peaceful they were. The army was made of Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks, Armenians, Germans and other Nordic peoples. At its peak it was a multiethnic empire and at its end it was an oversized city-state with a Greek culture and ethnicity at its core.
Culturally, the inheritors of the empire are undoubtedly the Greeks. They preserve the faith, which was the heart of the empire, and the songs and stories around it. We Albanians do not have hymns to the last emperor, do not have mourning songs for Constantinople, do not have any real tie to it. There are numerous Albanian songs preserved among the Arberesh mourning the death of Constantinople, but they mourn it symbolically.
The Byzantines were Greeks... and today they are long dead.
PS: Its sad to see how much worthless attention some Albs give the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine section of the National Museum is like 3x larger than the Ottoman era... which is basically non-existant. We Albanians are far more closely attached to the subsequent Ottoman Empire than anything else. We have songs for various Beys and Pashas of our country.
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Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
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Post by Kanaris on Aug 17, 2009 22:51:28 GMT -5
Bravo Melty for telling the Albs here where they come from... at least you have the guts to set the record straight..I tried to tell them..but they kicked sand in my face...
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Post by leshte on Aug 17, 2009 23:51:02 GMT -5
No sand in the face Kanaris. Take Melty's bull$hit and his love for the Ottomans out and he makes sense in a lot of cases. Like he does in the post above; take out the postscript and he makes sense. While the Greeks feel they are most closely related to the Byzantine Empire we have established so far that the Byzantine Empire was mish-mash of people.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Aug 17, 2009 23:56:03 GMT -5
The official language of the Byzantine Empire was Greek, the majority of its nobility was from the Hellenized/ic Anatolian elite, the literature was Greek. By all accounts, the upper echelon of the Byzantine Empire was Greek and became increasingly so as it entered its final days. Nevertheless, like all empires there was a detachment between elites and subjects. It was multiethnic, but only so far as its subjects were concerned (among whom, Greek peasants were among the ruled as well). Fact is that Greeks have something that solidifies their hold over the Byzantine legacy: collective memory. But ofcourse, everything I say is BS because it doesnt please... I neither love nor hate the Ottomans, they are a part of my reality and I welcome that. I did not say I love or hate the Ottomans. But, how many folk songs do we have about some bej, aga, or pasha? If you go to Tirana, besides Scanderbeg, there is another significant statue. What is it? Let me remind you, it is in Ottoman ministerial clothing and is next to the Kapllan Pasha's grave.
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