ioan
Amicus
Posts: 4,162
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Post by ioan on Oct 5, 2009 7:33:32 GMT -5
I m glad for Croatia. I ve been in Croatia, its a very beautiful country that is long overdue to join EU. I m sure Bulgaria would support Croatia in every way (I m sure about Romania and Greece too). Kefalus werent you also a Greek?
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Post by Kefalus on Oct 5, 2009 10:25:15 GMT -5
I m glad for Croatia. I ve been in Croatia, its a very beautiful country that is long overdue to join EU. I m sure Bulgaria would support Croatia in every way (I m sure about Romania and Greece too). Kefalus werent you also a Greek? yeah, but my primary language is romanian... she asked about my main language i'm from a mix marriage
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 5, 2009 10:41:14 GMT -5
Well basically the Cro govt will present votes to the EU. Now normally you think that you'd need a 50% + majority for it to pass through. But Croatia will be able to present a lower % to the EU and it will still get through and approved by the EU. That's just criminal.
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Post by Kefalus on Oct 5, 2009 10:46:20 GMT -5
You have o point here.
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Post by Username on Oct 5, 2009 15:59:13 GMT -5
^I never said it would lower incomes. Did I? I said many poor will get poorer, they don't friggen have any source of incomes atm so it won't go lower as it's no existent. Wow you sure have a way with contradicting yourself and not making any sense at all. I'll humour you - how will the poor get poorer if they have no income at all? How does that make sense? How does one get poorer if they have nothing as it is? What exactly are you measuring wealth by if not by income?? Number of eye lashes or something? But, let's somehow bypass your stupidity (it really is getting hard) and get to the meat of the issue. Unless they are somehow self sustaining themselves (e.g. through farming), they WILL have an income.. no matter how small it is, whether underground or not, people in Croatia do have incomes... and you are over-the-top exaggerating the number of people in Croatia below the poverty level. And the POOR will get RICHER. Firms in Western Europe will be attracted to the cheap labor in Croatia and other Eastern European markets. Demand for Croatian labor will grow - subsequently, incomes will rise. The way Croatia conducts its referendums, and ultimately decides if they want in the union has nothing to do with the EU. You are so clueless Trazi...
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 5, 2009 18:44:50 GMT -5
You stupid, STUPID man. Totally and utterly stupid man you are by attacking me because of the way I spoke (which was nice and in response to you misquoting of me)
The unemployed who currently have NO govt benefits means no income WOULD BE COMING IN AT ALL HOW ON EARTH ARE THEY GOING TO BECOME RICHER WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A JOB OR GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENTS? You dofus. I am not contraditing anything at all ; you are just unintelligent and can't read ENGLISH.
YOU JUST CANT HANDLE THE FACT THAT I NEVER EVER ONCE SAID THAT IT WOULD LOWER INCOMES; NEVER EVER, AND YOU BEHAVE LIKE THE ABOVE. WELL, I WON'T EVEN EDIT YOUR STUPIDITY SO EVERYONE CAN SEE AND READ MY RESPONSES AND SEE THAT YOU, MY FRIEND ARE AN IDIOT AND STARTED ATTACKING BEZ VEZE. CLEARLY, YOU CAN'T HANDLE A SMARTER PERSON THAT YOURSELF AND GOD FORBID THAT SHE'S A WOMAN. TYPICAL BACKWARD BALKAN. [/b][/i]
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Post by Username on Oct 5, 2009 19:15:23 GMT -5
You stupid, STUPID man. Totally and utterly stupid man you are by attacking me because of the way I spoke (which was nice and in response to you misquoting of me) The unemployed who currently have NO govt benefits means no income WOULD BE COMING IN AT ALL HOW ON EARTH ARE THEY GOING TO BECOME RICHER WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE A JOB OR GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENTS? You dofus. I am not contraditing anything at all ; you are just unintelligent and can't read ENGLISH. YOU JUST CANT HANDLE THE FACT THAT I NEVER EVER ONCE SAID THAT IT WOULD LOWER INCOMES; NEVER EVER, AND YOU BEHAVE LIKE THE ABOVE. WELL, I WON'T EVEN EDIT YOUR STUPIDITY SO EVERYONE CAN SEE AND READ MY RESPONSES AND SEE THAT YOU, MY FRIEND ARE AN IDIOT AND STARTED ATTACKING BEZ VEZE. CLEARLY, YOU CAN'T HANDLE A SMARTER PERSON THAT YOURSELF AND GOD FORBID THAT SHE'S A WOMAN. TYPICAL BACKWARD BALKAN. [/b][/i][/quote] You are flippin nuts. a) I'm not from the Balkans. b) Yeah, your reply was "friggen" nice. c) Misquoting you? YOU CLAIMED that Croatia joining the EU would cause Croatians to become even poorer. That's simply NOT TRUE. Then you came back with some bs claiming that's NOT what you said... it's right there - what the hell are you talking about? d) For a native-born Australian, you have terrible grammar and sentence structure. I would put my life on the fact that you're either a high school drop out.. or you just barely managed to graduate. e) You don't know what you're talking about. You have all these opinions, which is fine, but none of them have any backing at all. f) Dare I reply to another one of your crazy posts? UHHHH, hello?? If Croatia were to join the EU, investment from the EU would grow, and tons of jobs would be created in Croatia. The poor would benefit from the higher demand of cheap labour. What part of that don't you understand? It's pretty damn simple.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 5, 2009 21:52:39 GMT -5
Yes I SAID POORER; not that it would result in lower incomes, that's a different topic really that you brought up.
Short term investment and cheap labour means what for the long term? Nothing; that's not a long term solution. I really need not say more; it will cease to exist and countries like Croatia will pull out because the EU will refuse to give handouts to countries that can't even function correctly; or perhaps a miracle will happen once they enter and they will start behaving as you seem to think, ma jok. Samo sanjaj.
"c) Misquoting you? YOU CLAIMED that Croatia joining the EU would cause Croatians to become even poorer. That's simply NOT TRUE. "
Your wishful thinking and idealistic views won't get far. Do you have a case study for Croatia or a comparable country who is in the Eu to stress this? No you don't because the EU has never accepted such an infant poor country with many debts to it's union. So don't be so sure about that one.
lol oh you can belittle me all you like; you're negative words don't touch me cause you know why, I am not insecure as you are and I am "killing 'em" as my wonderful wonderful teacher once said I would. Sometimes dreams do come true. Sadly enough for most people here they don't.
OH I would still love to know where oh where in the whole thread I supposedly said this
"Trazi, you are wrong in saying that joining the EU will result in lower incomes in Croatia."
Oh that's right CAUSE I DIDN'T, who's the smartass dropout that can't read English now???
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Post by Username on Oct 6, 2009 0:23:23 GMT -5
Let's start with: Here it is: The poor will not get poorer. Some will be left behind, but the average income of those "poor" will increase. Lmao, man, I don't even know where to start here.. You don't think that income is a measure of someone's wealth (i.e. whether they're poor or not) Wow. I really don't even know where to start with that. If you can't get past this simple little concept, then you're hopeless. Who said anything about short term investment? Who said anything about sustained cheap labour (and lower incomes)?? Obviously you don't understand how economies work. Maybe I should teach you a thing or two about development. Let's assume that Croatia enters the EU. EU investors are eager to jump onto the opportunity to invest. Say that a company from Germany builds an offshoot plant in Zagreb. That plant hires Croatian workers. To maximize profit, they minimize their costs. How? By paying their workers low incomes. So let's say Person A gets $50 a day. That positive externality (on the economy) does not end there. Person A uses that money to purchase certain goods, which increases the profits of the corresponding firms that he purchases the goods from. That company uses its profits to purchase other goods to run its business from other companies. GDP goes up. Person A also decides to maybe stick half of his income of that day into the bank, so say $25. The bank, acting as a financial intermediary, uses that $25 to provide entrepreneurs with money to start up their own businesses. That business started because of the savings of the banks customers creates other jobs, and shoots GDP up as well. In addition, that $25 put into the bank in the end could end up as a $1000 more in the economy.. I won't go into how - but you can look up "money multiplier" if you're interested. And maybe, Person A uses that money from his job to provide for his/her education (or for their children's maybe). Education has a positive correlation with productivity (the more skilled you are, the better worker you'll be). So that indirect consequence also raises incomes and GDP. As people make more money, because of the cycle repeated above thousands of times, inflation rises. As people spend more and more, the companies make more and more (and are thus more productive). As workers become more educated, they become more productive... which in effect raises the productivity of the businesses they work for. For these reasons, and others, workers demand higher wages. Incomes rise steadily. CHEAP LABOUR IS NOT PERMANENT: INCOMES RISE GRADUALLYThis new economy becomes very attractive to outside investors: the work force becomes more and more educated. The work force has high incomes, which they will be happy to spend. They continue investing. YOUR IDEA OF "SHORT TERM" INVESTMENT TURNS OUT TO BE LONG TERMAs people make more money, and there's more businesses in the country, Croatia has a higher income pool to tax from. The government uses these taxes to pay off its debt... which I will mention as a side point - that debt is not always bad (you accumulate debt in bad times, and pay it off in good). It uses these taxes to pay for more social services, which improves the standard of living of Croatian citizens, and so on. Of course, this is a highly simplified view of economic development (it's a lot more complicated than that, and I've left out other important factors as well), but you get the point (I hope). uhhhh, Romania? Bulgaria? Which are considerably poorer (and more corrupt, but that's another story) than Croatia.. Croatia's GDP per capita is on levels on par with Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Hungary, etc... So in comparison to other Eastern European countries, it's up there. So yes, there's your comparable case study... look at the changes in Romania and Bulgaria after joining the EU. You can't tell me their incomes haven't gone up. I can see you're pretty close minded when it comes to the EU. I have no doubt in my mind that it would benefit Croatia greatly to enter it.. sure there are setbacks (less sovereignty, but if it as you say, that Croatia is not capable of taking care of themselves, perhaps it would be better to have someone else take care of them?), but overall, it will help Croatia develop, become a stable democracy, and improve standards of living. Are you a commie or something? Do you not understand the benefits of free trade? I don't mean to put you down or anything, but you were pretty aggressive in this thread.. calling someone else an idiot, and belittling someone for not speaking English well. I just thought you deserved a little taste of your own medicine. I don't have any issues with you.. I can just get a little heated in debates like this, so relax. It's nothing personal.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 6, 2009 9:04:04 GMT -5
That's right one of my subjects was economics but I know nothing lol you're really something.
Your argument still runs on deaf ears. Who do you think they will employ for cheap labour in the beginning? Not Croatian workers, but foreigners. A gradual increase in wages still does not mean that people will become richer you should know that; especially when price of goods increase as they will dramatically after they enter the EU.
I could be earning 200 a week but if my outgoings are say 100 a week i am saving 100 a week, if my wage went up to 500 a week (sure that's a higher amount) but if my outgoings go up to say 300 or 400 a week, how does that make me richer? It doesn't it makes me poorer because I have less to spend and to save. It's simple really. Lol Bulgaria and Romania, you must bee so stupid to not be able to see that's it's a false economy an the real effects are still not showing...
Oh and of course I got aggressive, it was only after you started to get aggressive toward me for no reason at all. AS I SAID I HAVE NOT EDITED ANYTHING AT ALL YOU CAN GO BACK AND SEE YOUR ERROR BUT I DOUBT YOU WOULD ADMIT IT. I DID NOT NEED YOUR SMART ASS RESPONSE WHICH HAS LED TO THIS AS IT WASN'T WARRANTED.
I deserved my own medicine eh??? AGAIN read all threads and posts above. I would never publicly humiliate someone here on in r/l unless they provoke me first (as it's not in my nature), then I will stand up for myself. AGAIN HERE WAS MY NORMAL RESPONSE TO YOU :
^I never said it would lower incomes. Did I?
Then read your next response in regards to this...I think you are the one that deserves your own medicine...after that you went skitzo...enough said really...
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Oct 6, 2009 14:00:09 GMT -5
Alright, no more insults, everyone cool down. I don't want to clean this up, as there is too much to clean up. If this persists, it will be locked for 24hrs, and cleaned up, thoroughly. You are advised to refrain from personal insults.
Thank you for the Co-operation,
- MiG.
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MiG
Amicus
Republika
Posts: 4,793
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Post by MiG on Oct 6, 2009 14:06:47 GMT -5
Guys, a free market economy is always on the move. It changes day in and day out, and where one market loses, another somewhere gains. Croatia's economy is now primarily Tourist driven. Our nation has an enormous potential for Agriculture, but they don't even invest enough to feed Croatia, let alone export it. The European Union is one that of opportunities for the people. What most people fear though, is that if Croatia joins the EU, then we are not really independent.
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Zvone
Amicus
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Posts: 525
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Post by Zvone on Oct 6, 2009 17:48:33 GMT -5
Agriculture is a step-back in economic development.
Sure, it's a great opportunity for Croatian-brand exports, but RH doesn't have that many and they will get beaten by competition on cost-per unit in the long run.
No one is really independent. Europe depends on the US, while US depends on Asia.
Might as well join the EU, considering the horrible state the economy is in now.
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Post by Username on Oct 6, 2009 21:06:37 GMT -5
My bachelors is in economics.
Part of the reason they'll invest in Croatia is because the average wages are low; a lot lower than in Western Europe. There aren't that many foreigners in Croatia (yes, I know the percentage stands at 15% but I really don't consider Bosnian Croats "foreigners").
Studies also show that real wage rises drastically during development (in transitional countries; a stage that Croatia is in). That real wage starts to level off as an economy reaches the upper numbers, where for example the US is at. (e.g. where I live, although we're considered a booming economy, our real incomes have leveled off in the past 15 years). Inflation will not keep up with the increases in wages.
I don't understand what you mean.. Are you talking about real wages? (nominal wages - inflation)... If so I covered that above.
I'm speaking of real terms. And umm economists clearly distinguish between nominal and real terms (adjusted for inflation) when collecting statistics. Nominal terms mean very little to economists, and they recognize that.. which is why they rely on the real terms that they collect.
"You are an idiot, don't get personal with me." "It's not because I don't agree with him it's simply because he's an uninformed "idiot" and can't answer simply questions about the real issue. People like that think the EU will be the answer to the problems faced in these infant countries and it's not. "
So your posts above were not aggressive and stubborn at all? But that's really not the point of my post, and I'm not gonna make this personal.
I showed you where you said it above.
Income is a measure of wealth. I don't know why you're being so stubborn to go and try to deny that.. I mean, comon'; the only measure economists use to measure wealth is income. There's no other way around it.
And I went schitzo? Rightttt...
Anyways, I refuse to keep arguing with you. I've made my points. I showed you that EU investment is vital for Croatia's development (there's a reason why poor countries are poor, and rich are rich - one group gets lots of investment; the other doesn't). You refuse to accept that well known fact.
Sorry, but you can't win this debate.. Im not saying you're clueless about economics, but you're obviously missing crucial details, and the big picture.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 6, 2009 21:42:18 GMT -5
oh wopdy doo my bachelors is in Aviation but that doesn't make me an expert in the airline field and aircraft does it? However more important, my life experience is in entrepreneurship; I'm sure you learnt all about that in you're little tucked away lecture rooms whilst they taught you to become safe corporate business ass lickers just like everyone else.
C'mon username don't be so ignorant, there will be an influx or foreigners a very steady one at that; more than a few percent.
Income is a measure of wealth but you still don't get the point when prices rise abruptly even if wages do go up also; it won;t be enoug to cover the rise, SO I'M TALKING ABOUT BASIC NEEDS HOUSING FOOD ETC. If there is something left after it's a good sign; but I think may people will struggle as they do in developed nations even Australia on average wages paying high living costs and not have much buying and saving power. The only winners here WILL BE BUSINESS so don't fool yourself.
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Post by Username on Oct 6, 2009 22:41:22 GMT -5
I dont claim to be an expert in economics, but I think I have an advantage over you in that I spent 4 years (bachelor degrees in North America are 4 years long, not 3 like in Australia) learning it, so obviously I would know more.. just like you would know more about aviation. It doesn't have much to do with intelligence or IQ or whatever.. just knowledge.
Nope. Look at other new EU countries.. lots of them don't have much immigration. And even if immigrants were to come in, those linkages I described would still take place -- that long paragraph, read it again if you have to. I believe I explained it very well.
I've already addressed that point, and I told you that economists have found, that real wages (adjusted for inflation) rise drastically during transitional development. Real wages start to level off once you hit American and Western European income levels... and yes, even Australia, just like you explained yourself. You're not getting any richer are you? Even though your economy is growing. Smaller economies in transition like Croatia will experience great increases in real income.
You're giving me your opinion Trazi. I'm giving you a fact that's been witnessed by economists.
And that's really enough of that, cause all we're doing is going back and forth.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 7, 2009 9:52:50 GMT -5
Forget about me, I am in a lucky position and do not have to work a 40 or 50 hour weeks for an average wage. I am getting richer; but as someone in my position I think that we have a duty to think of those who are not in such a favourable position; and also to NOT take advantage of these people only for the benefit or ourselves. And that translates also to the EU; which is why I will never support it for various reasons not just on the monetary level.
You views are just that out of textbooks, don't get me wrong it's not totally inccorect but if you actually see how the system works beyond that you will see it's not all pretty and straight forward. How many people said that Australia's economy would be hit hard and fall into massive recession and unemployment over the lat year or so? When in fact all along it ended up not as bad as they so called experts expected. I had none of that bullshit and speculated things would be fine as we had protected various aspects of our banking and various other industries to spare us. So what I am saying is that you cannot compare Croatia to other nations when they need to fix internal issues before they proceed into the EU so it can take advantage of that and actually contribute something to it, rather than take.
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Post by Username on Oct 7, 2009 15:45:07 GMT -5
Forget about me, I am in a lucky position and do not have to work a 40 or 50 hour weeks for an average wage. I am getting richer; but as someone in my position I think that we have a duty to think of those who are not in such a favourable position; and also to NOT take advantage of these people only for the benefit or ourselves. And that translates also to the EU; which is why I will never support it for various reasons not just on the monetary level. You views are just that out of textbooks, don't get me wrong it's not totally inccorect but if you actually see how the system works beyond that you will see it's not all pretty and straight forward. How many people said that Australia's economy would be hit hard and fall into massive recession and unemployment over the lat year or so? When in fact all along it ended up not as bad as they so called experts expected. I had none of that bulls**t and speculated things would be fine as we had protected various aspects of our banking and various other industries to spare us. So what I am saying is that you cannot compare Croatia to other nations when they need to fix internal issues before they proceed into the EU so it can take advantage of that and actually contribute something to it, rather than take. My views are just from textbooks? It's not textbook junk (i.e. theory - economic models - some of which don't work out so perfectly in the world).. It's based on empirical observations. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. It's not comparable to your recession example. Other states had to change internally before joining the EU as well.. you make it seem like the EU will let Croatia in without changing anything.. Croatia is completely revamping their whole system so they meet the EU criteria.. every prospective state goes through that. They will not be accepted until they meet all the reqs of being a member.
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Trazi Vise
Amicus
Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
Posts: 3,126
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Post by Trazi Vise on Oct 7, 2009 22:22:00 GMT -5
^ Sent you the Pm, the changes they will make will look like changes to the EU, but they won't be the proper changes needed on the ground to function properly.
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