|
Post by Kastorianos on May 29, 2009 18:54:51 GMT -5
Leshte to be honest I dont believe you ever had a firm identity...if you had...there wouldnt be so many of you fighting for the Greeks...and so many fighting for the Turks...your people didnt ever have any real entity. You should wonder if the fact that you never had a church is in reality the reason for it. You people are pretending entity since 20 years...and even now...you are of different opinions when its about your identity and belonging. The ones want to be close to the Turks...the other ones to the greeks...the other ones (and probably the vast majority) want to be (for the really first time in your history) an autochthonal people which you think you can gain...if you "convert" to atheism (because every other religion of the region is apparently already bounded on other Balkan peoples)....since atheims doesnt sound that nice you prefer to talk of Albanianism. Thats your modern delayed attempt of creating what you most probably never had...entity.
Thats a fact, look we Greeks or the Serbs or Bulgarians dont have such discussions...and never had.
|
|
|
Post by leshte on May 29, 2009 19:06:12 GMT -5
Melty I was rooting for Turkey too, especially this European. Also when they were playing against Brazil last world cup. I was glad when they beat the Chzeck Republic and even though I'm a fan of the German team I wanted Turkey to win that night. I even screamed loudly when they scored every time during the European, kinda like I did when Trezeguet scored against Italy during that European. There is something about rooting for the underdog. For the team that everyone dismisses yet it takes everyone by surprise. Anyway you're mixing things here. Albanians are generally neutral towards Turkey, some of them are against anything Turkish and some are very positive towards them Generally they are neutral. I give you an example, the average Albanian doesn't wanna become friends with someone simply cuz he's a Turk. Same like he doesn't consider a Greek his enemy simply cuz he's a greek, in the real world and not on forums. With Serbs is another matter. However lately starting with the 90's Turkey has been a very good ally and has always been on our side, so like someone said, it is very hard to hate someone when they tare nice to you. I have in mind the Greek threat of 1997 here, the decisive way which it dealt with Russia when it didn't allow them to pass through its waters to make it to the Adriatic during the Kosova war, and lastly the recognition of Kosova and its lobbying efforts. So diplomatically and statewise relations are excellent after the 90's. However that doesn't mean that Albanians regard favourably 500 years of occupation under that. On the contrary we see that in a very negative light. It is the darkest part of our history that brought nothing but misery and suffering. I think that's what you are mixing when you talk about football cheers and how we view parts of our history.
|
|
|
Post by SKORIC on May 29, 2009 19:09:27 GMT -5
Skaric any source, cuz I could write something and scan it too, and then post it here. Also I don't see any mention of Albanians there. You can download the whole thing there: www.speedyshare.com/659154879.htmlDid you think i typed that on microsoft word? lol And i wasnt aiming anything against Albanians (god bless your good souls). I was proving that it was the norm for all countries, including the "civilised" western europe. But especially in the balkans.
|
|
|
Post by redbaron on May 29, 2009 19:40:47 GMT -5
Albanians and Turks living hand in hand.... had probably done the same to them before this... Now i see why the turks killed 353,000 pontian greeks and cleaned Smyrna of its greek inhabitants. Why they killed and raped the greeks in Cyprus.It is because you had probably done the same to them before.
|
|
|
Post by leshte on May 29, 2009 19:48:41 GMT -5
Kastroianos you're totally missing the point of Albanianism. It not about Atheism at all. Albanianism stands for putting ethnicity before religion. Meaning pray as you want, believe what you want but whether you are an Orthodox, Muslim, or Catholic you are an Albanian first. Meaning if you are a Catholic or muslim Albanian you watch the back of your Albanian Orthodox brother and not the Greek or Serb guy simply cuz they are orthodox. Albanianism does not deny you the right to religious freedom. It is not a religious doctrine. It has been there for a long time so it is not a late invention. It was highlighted in Pashko Vasha's poem in the 1800's.
I think you have a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to us, our history, our identity. Might be because of communism and the fact that we were basically locked down for so long. When I read your post above I saw a lack of information about the people in general. I will try to explain some of them which I know fully well prior to doing so that you might not agree with them
First of all- Fighting for the Greeks against the Ottomans . Nothing illogical about it. The Empire was our common enemy, wanted to rid it of the balkans and hurt it in as many ways and whenever we could. We fought with the Serbs and other coalition forces in the Battle of Kosova in the 14th century against the Empire. Other Examples include fighting with the Croats against Serbia and fighting against Franco in Spain ( yea we had people who fought there too)
Soldiers for Turkey- Greece, Serbia and other Balkan nation had those too. Do some independent research. It is against the interest and politics of your state to say the contrary, thats why you never learn about them. An orthodox fighting for Turkey that is regarded as a heresy from your church. Well get over it, it happened. They made you do it. You were turkey's slaves for 5 centuries their generals took your boys and sent them to the front. Simple as that. That does away with the myth of lacking an entity.
I see the lack of the importance of religious institutions as an advantage actually. Why should one has to follow a religion to be of a certain ethnicity. Its stupid. I believe the distrust in such religious institutions came from the fact that that the Vatican, the Ottomans and the Holy Sinod ( Greeks, Russians and Serbs in charge) where all our enemies and through the use of religion they sought our division and ultimate downfall. Using religious divide to make territorial gains, that was the reason we distrust to connect ethnic and territorial issues with religion. This dispels the myth of the need for a centralized national religious institution.
Being not religious as people Atheism took root during communism years when religion was banned by law. Atheism is not a phenomena of the last 20 years. Goes further back. See my explanation for Albanianism. This dispels the Atheism talk.
The only people that ever questioned us being autochtonous are our neighbours. There has never been a doubt in our minds about where we come from. Read the letters Scanderbeg wrote, almost 600 years ago not 20 years ago. That dispels the myth about Albanians not knowing where we are from.
As for wanting better relations with Greece or Turkey I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I don't think too much time will pass when we'll have excelent relations with both. I think it will be real easy. Once we're part of the EU those that want border changes ( both Greeks and Albanians) will be muted since there will be no need for it. With time the immigrants will have either fully integrated in Greek society ( kinda like the arvanites) or the remaining will have returned home. After that there is no obstacle to have excellent relations. It is easier with Turkey because we don't border with them. If we did we would still have grudges from 5 centuries of occupation. That dispels the myth of wanting exelent relationship with both countries. Since we aspire for peace the desire to have good relationships should not be mutually exclusive.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on May 29, 2009 21:15:50 GMT -5
You like sucking uncircumcized diks thats why. Listen to me you piece of decomposing chit.. I am not your dad or your mother to talk to me like that....
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 1:56:04 GMT -5
ok...thats your opinion. I dont agree with you. What the Ottomans brought was backwardness...and oppression...out and out. And the stability you are talking about...the instability of the Balkans prior 1453 was to a great extent a result of the several muslim attempts to conquer our regions. So thats a naiv and stupid argument. Commonwealth...lol...for your bribable ancestors perhaps...but not for our firm ones. Just look who the Balkans were before 1453 in comparison to Europe and who we were in the 20. century...till now. We are Europe's dumb...our people are backward in average...mentally...where are the enlightened people...surely not in the Balkans. The Renaissance started in Northern Italy...when? From 1453 on..after the turkish alosis...when the educated Romioi left the Polis and migrated to Italy....thats who we were back then...and who we are now. An...there are 400 years of ottoman rule and influence.. between then and now. 1. The Renaisssance in Italy began in the later 13th and 14th century. The roots of it can be traced even further back. It was in full swing by the 16th and actually entered decline by the 17th (particularly as wars became more pronounced in the region). Rebirth of Classical learning is only ONE of the many aspects of it. Others include major breakthroughs in mathematics (heavily Arab influenced) and architecture (classical influenced), among many many other discoveries. All these worked together and the Romans who left the polis were only a part of it, particularly feeding classical knowledge influence. Greek learning, however, was not at the center of it. Latin was. Architecture was influenced by the famous Latin work De Architectura, major literature remained Latin (Aeneid and Livy at the center of it). Note that one of the factors that influenced this was the idea that Italy never really entered a Dark Age. It remained closely tied to Latin and thus the classical age and retained much of its culture, more so than most others, until very late. 2. So, you say we should fault the developments of 1900 to something that started in the 13th century? That is utterly ridiculous. The Ottomans were at their cultural and technological peak at that time and eventually declined not because western Europe grew. States like Venice, unified France and Spain are at the heart of it. They left the Balkans and the east completely behind. Even the Byzantines were utterly outshined by the west in terms of technology (they were the last to adopt firearms, while Turks among the first). The Byzantines remained so utterly conservative that they lost as a result of it. The Balkans has been backwards in comparison to the rest of Europe since the 1300-1400s. The Ottomans actually introduced initial technology, roads. They increased trade, unity, stability, infrastructure. They were eventually topped by the west, utterly and completely. The Balkans declined because Europe wasnt interested in it anymore, because Europe had since found new trade routes, new items making the Balkans less and less necessary. Just to let you know. I have never in my life heard this argument... ever... Nobody argues over whether we support Greece or Turkey. If that question was ever asked, 90% of Albanians (and I mean real Albanians, not some of the half-hearted Orthodox ones from the complete south) would quickly say Turkey. The thought of picking sides is a joke since most Albanians to this day do not trust Greece in anyway... even polls have shown that. While there is remotely no such feelings for your enemies, who are generally perceived as friendly and as allies... albeit feelings are not quite as involved as mine are. Then again, I doubt the average Greeks would be totally comfortable with Pyrros' views. I dont know of any Albanian who would be 'fighting for the Greeks'... unless maybe they are Albanians who live in Greece today. I know very well the common(thankfully, the new Albanian historians are giving this a proper re-examination) opinion of Albanians regarding the Ottoman Empire. Let me say something that will mean I get tons and tons of PMs insulting my mother, nonexistant sister and other family: outside of the Ottoman Empire, what is there that was so "bright"? Ill answer: Nothing. Prior to the Ottomans, ALbania was a feudal possession under the fractured control of warlords and clan leaders who were often illiterate and poor. Prior to the Ottomans most Albs didnt even populate the major cities, we lived outside, constantly attacking them to get in. Albania never had a history that was any differen from "misery and suffering". Im a person interested in social history, not in national ones, and as far as I am concerned, the Albanian peasant was fuked during the time up to the Ottoman conquest and fuked during it aswell... until now, where there is less fuking... You, and most other Albanians, are speaking out of an ignorance of historical knowledge and evaluation. You know only what was passed down from the Communist era tradition when Alb historians wanted to make a new picture of Albanians. You like most other Albs. like those who hug "scholars" like Aristidh Kola. Unfortunately these half-truths, misconceptions, manipulations and outright lies have become common tradition, so to tell another Alb this is almost like attacking the very essence of their national identity. Its an unfortunate fault of the Communists.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 2:21:31 GMT -5
Kastroianos you're totally missing the point of Albanianism. It not about Atheism at all. Albanianism stands for putting ethnicity before religion. Meaning pray as you want, believe what you want but whether you are an Orthodox, Muslim, or Catholic you are an Albanian first. Meaning if you are a Catholic or muslim Albanian you watch the back of your Albanian Orthodox brother and not the Greek or Serb guy simply cuz they are orthodox. Albanianism does not deny you the right to religious freedom. It is not a religious doctrine. It has been there for a long time so it is not a late invention. It was highlighted in Pashko Vasha's poem in the 1800's. I think you have a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to us, our history, our identity. Might be because of communism and the fact that we were basically locked down for so long. When I read your post above I saw a lack of information about the people in general. I will try to explain some of them which I know fully well prior to doing so that you might not agree with them First of all- Fighting for the Greeks against the Ottomans . Nothing illogical about it. The Empire was our common enemy, wanted to rid it of the balkans and hurt it in as many ways and whenever we could. We fought with the Serbs and other coalition forces in the Battle of Kosova in the 14th century against the Empire. Other Examples include fighting with the Croats against Serbia and fighting against Franco in Spain ( yea we had people who fought there too) Soldiers for Turkey- Greece, Serbia and other Balkan nation had those too. Do some independent research. It is against the interest and politics of your state to say the contrary, thats why you never learn about them. An orthodox fighting for Turkey that is regarded as a heresy from your church. Well get over it, it happened. They made you do it. You were turkey's slaves for 5 centuries their generals took your boys and sent them to the front. Simple as that. That does away with the myth of lacking an entity. I see the lack of the importance of religious institutions as an advantage actually. Why should one has to follow a religion to be of a certain ethnicity. Its stupid. I believe the distrust in such religious institutions came from the fact that that the Vatican, the Ottomans and the Holy Sinod ( Greeks, Russians and Serbs in charge) where all our enemies and through the use of religion they sought our division and ultimate downfall. Using religious divide to make territorial gains, that was the reason we distrust to connect ethnic and territorial issues with religion. This dispels the myth of the need for a centralized national religious institution. Being not religious as people Atheism took root during communism years when religion was banned by law. Atheism is not a phenomena of the last 20 years. Goes further back. See my explanation for Albanianism. This dispels the Atheism talk. The only people that ever questioned us being autochtonous are our neighbours. There has never been a doubt in our minds about where we come from. Read the letters Scanderbeg wrote, almost 600 years ago not 20 years ago. That dispels the myth about Albanians not knowing where we are from. As for wanting better relations with Greece or Turkey I don't think they are mutually exclusive. I don't think too much time will pass when we'll have excelent relations with both. I think it will be real easy. Once we're part of the EU those that want border changes ( both Greeks and Albanians) will be muted since there will be no need for it. With time the immigrants will have either fully integrated in Greek society ( kinda like the arvanites) or the remaining will have returned home. After that there is no obstacle to have excellent relations. It is easier with Turkey because we don't border with them. If we did we would still have grudges from 5 centuries of occupation. That dispels the myth of wanting exelent relationship with both countries. Since we aspire for peace the desire to have good relationships should not be mutually exclusive. Albanianism leads to atheism...automatically. You just dont admit it. Why do all of you guys do always talk bad of religion? Why is it necessary to make clear that there comes your national identity comes first? You guys apparently cannot be a united bunch if you are religious...the ones that say so....cant face the truth. You guys do either define yourself over Albanianism or over your relation and stand to another people.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 2:27:45 GMT -5
Albanianism was redefined by the Communists and taken to the extreme level held by Albs today. It was never really such to begin with. It was created by Pashko Vasa and explored upon by Sami Frasheri (a religious Bektashi-Muslim Albanian) who himself openly promoted it. The atheist characteristic of it was a later Communist re-reading, who used it to back their attacks on religion in the country in general. Sami Frasheri was a religious Muslim and Konstandin Kristoforidhi a religious Orthodox and both were best friends while in Istanbul. Similarly so with Faik Konitza and Fan Noli in America. Gjergj Fishta, a northern Alb Catholic priest was among the most respected men in Albania... and respected immensely by Muslim Albs and he wrote a major epic poem centered on the life of a Muslim Albanian bey.
In Albania in general issues talked about rarely surface and most are relatively unified in national goals.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 2:31:40 GMT -5
Yes of course it did, but the Romioi left for Italy at this time already. 1453 Constantinople had some 36.000 inhabitants only. I dont say they triggered the Renaissance alone but they made a great contribution to it. And most of modern historians are of this opinion today.
When its about your people's identity you talk immediately of your stance to Turkey and Greece. Seems that you can only define yourself over your attitude to thirds. Same I said to leshte. Thats unique in the Balkans. But my friend thats the price for the opportunism of your people during the ottoman rule. Thats why you have such a small country as well...the western powers and Russia didnt get the feeling that you are someone..."Alb..what?"...you didnt give them the feeling that you are willing to rip up the turks.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 2:39:06 GMT -5
Yes of course it did, but the Romioi left for Italy at this time already. 1453 Constantinople had some 36.000 inhabitants only. I dont say they triggered the Renaissance alone but they made a great contribution to it. And most of modern historians are of this opinion today. When its about your people's identity you talk immediately of your stance to Turkey and Greece. Seems that you can only define yourself over your attitude to thirds. Same I said to leshte. Thats unique in the Balkans. But my friend thats the price for the opportunism of your people during the ottoman rule. Thats why you have such a small country as well...the western powers and Russia didnt get the feeling that you are someone..."Alb..what?"...you didnt give them the feeling that you are willing to rip up the turks. Who said? Our identity has nothing to do with either you or the Turks but how we feel was greatly impacted by it. In essence, all identities need an opposite to truly exist and thrive. Without them there is no us, but the individual character is there as well. Albs were strongly influenced by these other groups, but in no way is my identity Alb because I am somehow "anti-Greek" or "pro-Turk". That is idiotic. I feel, however, that, due to the particular developments and collisions that have historically occurred, it is ridiculous for an Alb to ever be "pro-Greek". It is something that I simply cannot see as feesable without ignoring the suffering endured. In the same way the Greek identity was strongly influenced by the perceived injustice of the katastrophia . Just so you know, the 36,000 people was not because scholars were fleeing left and right. It was the natural development of a city that could not hold its own anymore. Rome went from 1,000,000 to 10,000... why didnt the world flourish with scholarship? ;D
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 2:42:03 GMT -5
Well, those Albs were not "rooting" for the underdog, since I didnt see many Catholics doing so... They were rooting for the country.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 2:46:10 GMT -5
Idiotic or not.... thats the impression you give.
Yes but you are talking a little bit too much about Turks and Greeks if you ask me.
Which "katastrophia" are you talking about?
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 2:52:03 GMT -5
All of them. Your identity is heavily influenced by each one. The one in 1453 and 1922. Like I have said in the past, this forum is flooded with posts from Greeks. You, Basil, the polak-greek (less so recently), Canaris. Then you had the slew of others in the past. Hell most of this forum's history has been a battleground.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 2:59:20 GMT -5
So? If the καταστροφη plays an important role...its ok...because they are our catastrophies.
Yes our forum is as well flooded by albanians (YOU for example), nevertheless we dont talk about Turks or Albanians if we discuss about out identity. We talk at best about Tourkokratia (turkish rule) but thats it all. Besides its right this forum has been a battle ground to a great extent but the discussion here was no battleground. Nevertheless you talk about others.
|
|
|
Post by todhrimencuri on May 30, 2009 3:08:41 GMT -5
I post where I find an interesting topic to comment on. I have "flooded" the Serb and Bosnian forum as well, you just never look on those places. I dont make a difference. However, Ill say, Ive pretty much ceased posting in your main forum now as interest there has waned.
Those Albs who bring up others annoy me aswell. Usually they do so to create derogatory low points of comparison ("dont be like a Greek"/"dont be like a Turk"). Ofcourse, since for many Albs the foundation of an identity was fighting off the label "Greek"/"Turk" we might bring it up more than others. You guys have an easier identity that remains pretty vague. Ours is more complex and revolves around a number of tough issues to deal with and climb over. That it was only in 1937 that the Alb church broke off is a very very important thing. Among us, bringing up the other, not as the group itself, but as an abstract idea (it is not a literal "Grek" or "Turk"), is an influence of this fact.
These Albs annoy me as well, it is also a fault of the communists though.
|
|
|
Post by Kastorianos on May 30, 2009 3:21:53 GMT -5
Ok I agree with you on this. For a change.
|
|
donnie
Senior Moderator
Nike Leka i Kelmendit
Posts: 3,389
|
Post by donnie on May 30, 2009 9:11:43 GMT -5
Skoric wrote,
By that premise, we can conclude that what the Ustasha did to your kinsmen in Jasenovac wasn't a big deal either, since concentration camps were "trendy" back in those days.
|
|
|
Post by leshte on May 30, 2009 13:19:41 GMT -5
Well Melty I am supposed to be a Catholic, whatever that means ( I guess like you're supposed to be a Muslim whatever that means), and I was rooting for Turkey, but I also was hearing expressions such as Turk shkerdhate when we played against them. Hell one of the comentators on TV said that live when we beat them in a friendly in Turkey under Hafizi. Although I gotta agree with you that we view the Greeks as not to be trusted, as some that always have trick in their sleeves ready to use it against us. We don't view the Turks that way. Although we have an expression we use iku si koke Turku. I guess back then it didn't matter if a Turk was killed as long as he/she was killed, hence the expression. So I guess we still distrust the Greeks, but we used to hate the Turks, now I guess there is no such hatred towards the Turks. They've been our allies after all since the fall of communism. Kosova alone is very telling. You have the Greeks who were rooting for the Serbs and still are doing that, and you have the Turks who not only helped us but are continuing to do so through their lobbying. Its good however that we don't share a border with Turkey, therefore the grudges and complexities of 5 centuries are gone.
There's always room for improvement. I don't see any reason why relationships with our neighbours shouldn't improve.
P.S Skoric the whole point is that whatever atrocity was trendy back then, we Albanians didn't do that. We didn't go and kill your women or your kids. You guys on the other hand have always done that. It has been systematic and the policy of your governments to kill indiscriminately whether they are kids, women, or elders as long as they were Albanian you governments ordered you to do that.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,587
|
Post by Kanaris on May 30, 2009 13:32:19 GMT -5
There only ONE defining reason why Turkey is helping you...and you know it very well.
|
|