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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 3, 2010 2:24:38 GMT -5
www.archive.org/stream/VinkoPribojeviAndTheGloryOfTheSlavs/pribojevic_thesis_djvu.txtVinko Pribojevic (mid-15th century - after 1532) was a Croatian historian and ideologue, best known as the founder of the pan-Slavic ideology. Pribojevic was born on the island of Hvar. He was educated in the humanist spirit and joined the Dominican Order around 1522. His most famous work is the speech De origine successibusque Slavorum (On the Origin and Glory of the Slavs), where he exalts Illyrians and Slavs as the ancestors of the Dalmatian Croats. His speech, most probably made in Venice in 1525, left a deep impression on the Venetians, who published it in Latin and Italian several times over the following years. Its passionate glorification of Slavs (where he includes Alexander the Great and Aristotle, Diocletian and Jerome) and its strong pathos played a major role in the birth of the pan-Slavic ideology. It was the first time that such ideology was formulated as a program, which was further developed by the Croats Mavro Orbini and Juraj Križanic. Pribojevic was the first to incorporate Illyrians and their myth into the Croatian and Slavic historiography (or rather ideology), as a shield and rampart against the German, Hungarian and Italian national and territorial ambitions. His identification of Slavs as Illyrians, as well as his enthusiastic glorification of the historical greatness and importance of Illyrians, left a deep mark on world history and outlook. Although his work is pure fiction from the aspect of critical historiography, Pribojeviæ's basic ideas, however bizarre today, were taken very seriously by his contemporaries. At the time of Humanism and the Renaissance, there was still no established rational and critical apparatus differentiating between truth and fiction in the murky issues of ethnogenesis and national/linguistic loyalties. In fact, various fantastic theories on the origin of peoples persisted well into the 19th century. This exceptionally influential man, one of the most important Croatian and global Latinists who created the ideological molds of the future, is also the ancestor of the Croatian Illyrian movement of the 19th century and of the pan-Slavic ideology that was embraced by all Slavic peoples. --------------------- In the year 1525 on the Island of Hvar in front of a selected audience, the social and intellectual elite of this prosperous Adriatic community, the learned Dominican monk Vinko Pribojevic (Vincentius Priboevius) gave an oration titled De Origine Successibusque Slavorum. With a wide stroke of the brush, Pribojevic painted his history of the Slavs from times immemorial to the present day, incorporating in it the histories of various ancient peoples, such as the Thracians, Macedonians, Goths, Gets, Vandals, Sarmatians, Gepids and Illyrians, all of whom he declared Slavs. Pribojevic ignored the migration of the Slavs to the Balkan peninsula in the sixth century, and claimed ethnic continuity for the Slavs in these regions. By doing so, he invented an ancient tradition for contemporary Slavic Dalmatia, linking it with the heritage of the ancient Illyrians. In the case of such an invented tradition, one can easily note the obvious connection between the claim of*glorious history, and the author's (in this case Pribojevic's) ability to identify a particular historical person (Emperor Diocletian, Aristotle, St. Jerome etc.) or entire nations such as Goths, Macedonians or Vandals as valid members of a communal past. The mechanism used for distinguishing the ancestors from the others, contains the core elements that constitutes an understanding of itself and its community. For this purpose, Pribojevic used the criteria applied since the early Middle Ages, to distinguish various ethnic groups, namely descent, language and customs. This study uses Pribojevic's oration as a case study in the research of early modern protonationalism. The aim is, through the use of an ethno-symbolic framework analyse Pribojevic's understanding of collective identity, to show it as a new model of Dalmatian patriotism, one consciously built on the Slavic character of 16th century Dalmatia. Furthermore, the study will suggest that unlike the works from the later period known as "Slovinstvo," which placed an emphasis on the special relationship between South Slavs nad Illyrians, Pribojevic's narrative operated on two different levels, a Dalamtian and pan-Slavic. There is no special notion of unity or relationship to the other south Slavs. To the author of Oratio Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia were of equal importance as Moscovia, Cassubia or Bohemia.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 3, 2010 4:35:12 GMT -5
LOL ...'where he exalts Illyrians and Slavs as the ancestors of the Dalmatian Croats" I'll exalt this for stupidity. LMAO!!!
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 3, 2010 10:36:35 GMT -5
^ I wouldn't mind TV if you elaborated on some of your comments more often. Some of them have a lot of inuendo but are also quite cryptic like this one.
I find this combination of Illyrianism & pan-slavism quite interesting. Id say it's quite safe to say that south slavs are a combination of two primary peoples: Illryians and migratory slavs. I still doubt Illyrians were already slavs. The Serbs & Croat names are for the most part delt theories that are linked with migratory slavic peoples so slavs still win out in a sense. The Albanians and Greeks see slavs as an invading hoard of barbarians. When we look at it from this Vinko perspective it's more a combination of two people who managed to live and merge/assimilate without conflict. Maybe there were conflicts at the Greek Albanians end but over west slavs and natives managed to find more harmonious relations.
One thing I can commend Croats with is that they don't look at things in such a perspective of purity. Like for example Greeks & Albanians think they are pure Greeks & Illyrians which there is a lot of evidence to point otherwise. They have def assimilated a lot of slavs. Likewise Serbs often try to paint themselves as pure slavs which is not true by a long shot.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 3, 2010 22:09:17 GMT -5
There is nothing to elaborate, it's bloody hilarious to think that the illyrians and slavs are the product of dalmatian croats...one of the funniests things I've ever read actually.
So what you're saying is, that we have here 3 types of slavs: southern slavs, slavs and migratory slavs lol...and the all came from where? Or no wait they were already in the balkans and the other "slavs" came to keep em company LMAO!!! I don't know why people choose to confuse themselves on something that is totally not credible in any sense.
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gavrilo
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Post by gavrilo on Jan 3, 2010 22:36:08 GMT -5
I don't think that's what pribojevic or arsenije were trying to say.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 3, 2010 23:26:42 GMT -5
There is nothing to elaborate, it's bloody hilarious to think that the illyrians and slavs are the product of dalmatian croats...one of the funniests things I've ever read actually. So what you're saying is, that we have here 3 types of slavs: southern slavs, slavs and migratory slavs lol...and the all came from where? Or no wait they were already in the balkans and the other "slavs" came to keep em company LMAO!!! I don't know why people choose to confuse themselves on something that is totally not credible in any sense. No, what I think is that there were Illyrians who were not slavs & then there were migratory slavs who were Serbs, Croats & miscellaneous slavs. I can't find where to download any transcripts of Vinkos book so I'm just going on the summaries. What Vinko is basically claiming is that all these seperate groups which contributed to south slavic ethnogenisis were slavs - Macedonians, Goths, Gets, Vandals, Sarmatians, Gepids and Illyrians. So he's saying the Illyrians were already slavs but so were the incommng people. I disagree with Illyrians being slavs because they are not in the Balkansprachbund... but I do agree with the possibility of Sarmatians being slavs (don't know too much about Vandals & Gepids) and I agree that these seperate tribes both contributed to Croat & Serb ethnogenesis. So I agree with the idea that Illyrians & slavs (whoever they were (Serbs, Croats as Sarmatians, Vandals or whomever) contributed to the ethnogenisis of the south slavs. Just not that Illyrians were slavs. It was an Illyrian slav fusion rather than an aggressive invasion as painted by Greeks & Albanians. Mind you now though the idea that slavs are native to the Balkans does not lack support in formal theories. For examples Slovenes have the Venetic theory which paints them as being native. FYROMians also have theories claiming the Macedonians were slavs. I definitely do not believe this.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 4, 2010 2:40:15 GMT -5
Pribojevic was quoted in the above article here right at the start and thus there is no need to read his ideas any further.
"His most famous work is the speech De origine successibusque Slavorum (On the Origin and Glory of the Slavs), where he exalts Illyrians and Slavs as the ancestors of the Dalmatian Croats"
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 4, 2010 2:43:11 GMT -5
"No, what I think is that there were Illyrians who were not slavs & then there were migratory slavs who were Serbs, Croats & miscellaneous slavs"
how can a migratory slav be a serb or a croat when these people are their own ethnic group SEPARATE to slavs? I Still would love to know where a 1. slav 2. migratory slav and 3. a southern slav came from. oh and 4. a miscellaneous slav ROFLMAO!!!
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 6, 2010 2:52:18 GMT -5
TV you’re comprehension is consistently s**te. You need to ask your self why it’s always you that’s being misinterpreted and also doing the misinterpreting. You big time overvalue yourself & you’re frankly only spared from harsher criticism a lot of the time because you’re female.
I really can’t be arsed continually trying to explain things to you but I’ll try one more time...
You asked;
how can a migratory slav be a serb or a croat when these people are their own ethnic group SEPARATE to slavs?
Serbs and Croats being their own separate ethnic groups that migrated to the Balkans brought with them a slavic language so they are slavs. But then you have other slavs that also came to the Balkans and they belonged to no named ethnic group, state or leadership as would be the case with Serbs or Croats who migrated. Slav is not an ethnic label in this sense. The Bulgarians in particular are an admixture of these sort of miscellaneous/undifferentiated slavs. They say there were seven different slavic tribes that came to Bulgaria pretty much identified by their family names. These type of slavs also went through Serbia, Bulgaria and right into Greece & Albania simply as a bunch of separate slavic tribes in their own right. Slav is a good label in a lot of cases because for instance peasants would have little concept of ethnicity in label form (Serb, Croat, Bulgarian etc) until they actually came to associate with their respective nation states. It’s particularly a good analogy of how Bosniaks formed as an ethnic group.
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 7, 2010 1:50:35 GMT -5
My comprehension is fine, however the comprehension of these so called historians and people like you is simply crap and just because you don't agree with me you don't have to get all upset. There is no basis and no credibility in what this man says or what you say, so I will devalue it and put it in the rubbish basket where it belongs.
"Serbs and Croats being their own separate ethnic groups that migrated to the Balkans brought with them a slavic language so they are slavs. "
Are you f**king kidding me? You think it was that simple and that all along we were talking slav and because of the language we must be slavs? Amazingly ignorant that idea is.
oh and I must be English seeing as I speak English....
I thought you were smarter than that man!!!
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jan 7, 2010 8:06:55 GMT -5
You are a waist of time. I mean your same idiotic arguments can be used on any given slavic nation to say they are not slav so nobody would be slavs according to you. Once again just ask your self why it's always you claiming to be misinterpreted with everyone and also doing the misinterpreting? Trust me it's not you with the higher intellect over everyone else lol. It's so consistent I think it's because you simply lack the brain capacity, it's that pathetic contemporary Croat complex about slavs or you seem to have some other issue. Listen to this - in academics Croats are classed as slavs! For f**ks sake. I'll say it again, everywhere in academia (historically, politically etc...) Croats are consistently classified as slavs. It’s just a matter of understanding the context. And Croats are the only people in the slavic world who can not seem to grasp this concept & associate the correct context with the word slav. It's even as though you purposely put it into the wrong context. It's absolutely pathetic. Slav is an ethno-linguistic term but it can be separated into exclusively linguistic and also at times just an ethnic term. Mind you language is highly corrrelated with commonality in a lot of other concepts. It can definitely have different levels of meaning & concepts at different times depending on how it is used in context (eg just linguistically, just racially, just ethnically, just historically, just politically or in combination of the aforementioned). Unfortunately you can not seem to grasp this in any sense and put it into correct context. It's your loss.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 8, 2010 0:11:55 GMT -5
Ivanka are you suggesting Croats are not Slavic?
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Trazi Vise
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 8, 2010 2:05:06 GMT -5
^That's what I'm saying. Ethnic Croats were not slavs, ethnic Illyrians were not slavs and ethnic Dalmatians were not slavs. However, the same cannot be said for MODERN day Croatia. Please understand that I am separating the two. Ancient history versus the more modern Croatian history. The only thing "slavic" about us in this era, is in terms of linguistics.
Arse because "slavicism" was forced upon us without credibility. Of course a Serb will never understand that because it was too your people who were always trying to force something upon us for your own benefit.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 8, 2010 5:33:38 GMT -5
Trazi Vise, the idea of pan-slavism in the Balkans was started and developed by Croats mostly. Read the topic and check for Mavro Orbini, a follower of Pribojevic, a person with massive influence on this pan-slavic idea. He was also a Croat. Who on earth forced him to write his book?
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 8, 2010 6:27:04 GMT -5
^That's what I'm saying. Ethnic Croats were not slavs, ethnic Illyrians were not slavs and ethnic Dalmatians were not slavs. However, the same cannot be said for MODERN day Croatia. Please understand that I am separating the two. Ancient history versus the more modern Croatian history. The only thing "slavic" about us in this era, is in terms of linguistics. Arse because "slavicism" was forced upon us without credibility. Of course a Serb will never understand that because it was too your people who were always trying to force something upon us for your own benefit. Forced upon us? Isusa ti i Boga, ti si pukla sto po sto. Imas li pojma o cemu ti pricas zenska glavo. Al sad za sad nema veze. I'll respond to you later on when I have time. That was just one of the few totally moronic statements stated. Forced upon us? HAH!! "nuff said".
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Trazi Vise
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Today's "church" has NOTHING to do with religion.
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Post by Trazi Vise on Jan 8, 2010 11:24:07 GMT -5
I honestly have nothing more to say about man who claims that the Illyrians and Slavs are the product of the Dalmatians and discredits the so called migrations thought to have occurred by the "Slavs" in the 6-7th century. And the fact that some Croats here believe Pribojevic's shit is quite frankly amazing. Only a Dalmatinac as he was would make up such rubbish.
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MiG
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Post by MiG on Jan 8, 2010 13:24:42 GMT -5
^ That is not what you initially said to the post I responded to. Let's backtrack, shall we. Ethnic Croats were not Slavs? Where the hell do you get off on which foot to make this statement sound like fact? I would love to see the source that says that the original Croats (Which migrated TO the Balkans 6th Century), were not Slavs, or Slavic. Then it makes your past statement a redundancy. I'll show you why in the next quote. Negative TV. Big mistake there. "Ancient History" is Alexander the Great, or the Roman Republic. History of the Croats is more recent than "Ancient History". What is Slavic about us? Everything! How the hell can you deny this? The only thing "Slavic" is linguistics? What are we, a breed of a hundred different cultures? Lets get something straight here. You are WAY out of your league with such thought, as you are nowhere near an expert on Ethnicity and Culture's history. But let me give you some leeway here. Let's see how your theory plays out. I'll show you in your next quote. Stop. Just stop. I cannot begin to tell you how big of a douche you look here. At least to me. This statement is a wee bit retarded (No pun intended, I just cannot find any other way to express my shock and disbelief that you'd make such a ridiculous claim). To tell me that our Culture, Language, Customs, etc... Which our people have practiced for more than a thousand years (Way more), was forced upon us? No, that is where you are totally wrong, and simply now, you are way out of line. You may be ashamed of what we are, and make us out to be something we're not, but I'll never let you tarnish the name of the Slavic People. That is a f**king shame you do that. You should be God damn proud to be a Slavic decedent, and one yourself. I cannot f**king believe how you could ignore the fact that for close to 900+ years of being under German, Hungarian, and Italian rule, we have never converted to their ways, and kept our own culture (Even when they have tried to assimilate us time and again). Be f**king proud of what you are, and stand up, walk tall. Give mine, your, and our forefathers that bit of f**king respect! And yet again, It was only in the last century that happened. But you cannot note the others doing so, can you? It's always the Serbs fault something happened to us. i.e. "Sanader was a douche, and he stole money from the people! f**king Serbs man, it's all their fault!". Nay nay! You have some f**king issues to think that it's all Serbs fault. I'm tired of the anti-Serb comments from you sometimes. You have no reason to hate, but yet you do anyway. How f**king shallow is that s**t? I'm stunned at the denial of the Slavic People and Culture though. That's a little more than I can take in right now.
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Zvone
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Post by Zvone on Jan 8, 2010 13:33:55 GMT -5
Ok...so why are you guys arguing?
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gavrilo
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Vi ste svi banane
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Post by gavrilo on Jan 8, 2010 16:01:43 GMT -5
Because TV writes ridiculous comments like the ones in this thread. And I think it might struck a nerve in good old mig. Lol.
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Post by rusebg on Jan 8, 2010 17:15:19 GMT -5
Trying to explain a few things to TV, which is very tough to do obviously. She is obviously coming from some still unknown origin.
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