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Post by L0gjICK on Jan 15, 2010 9:07:21 GMT -5
I never knew how similar Greek and Albanian folk dancing can be, we the Greeks played a vital role in their culture that is for sure. Funny you say that.................Albanians say the same things about the Modern Greeks. Since the Modern Greeks are nothing more then an Orthodox State with different ethnicities identifiying as "Greek", I'm more inclined to believe the Albanians. P.S. When you wear a fustanella, pull it down a bit. You guys look like aJapanese girl from an anime porno when you wear those skirts.......
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 15, 2010 11:23:17 GMT -5
I never knew how similar Greek and Albanian folk dancing can be, we the Greeks played a vital role in their culture that is for sure. Funny you say that.................Albanians say the same things about the Modern Greeks. Since the Modern Greeks are nothing more then an Orthodox State with different ethnicities identifiying as "Greek", I'm more inclined to believe the Albanians. P.S. When you wear a fustanella, pull it down a bit. You guys look like aJapanese girl from an anime porno when you wear those skirts....... yes of course... Hoxha told you that? Albos were always a savage semi nomadic group of tribesmen good in placke... nothing cultural to spread... especially to Greeks. Is it a coincidence that only the southies of albanians wear foustanella and have similar dances with Greeks?... And this stands for a part of Tosks, the Ljabs neither dance like that...only some annoying voices they can produce, nor wore that kind of dress... so foustanella wore the Chams and the Albos in the area of with Greek and Vlach populations... what a coincidence... and in Greece from Peloponnesos to Macedonia...while Arvanites, about 2/3 of them wore vraka....: ^Spetsiotes btw were there Albanians in Portugal or Spain...?: or in 6th century AD Peloponnesos? ?:
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 15, 2010 13:14:01 GMT -5
The last pic is funny. Traditional people in the Med never wore pants. Rather they wore tunics. These were long robes you put over your body. You then add another layer of clothing over the tunic. This gives off the appearance that you are wearing a skirt.... t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:bhK0TKFpiPvyzM%3Ahttp://www.jelldragon.com/images/linen_tunic_1.jpgTunics were popular in both the Greek and Roman world among the lower classes and common throughout the middle ages. Pants were associated with Germanic barbarians and Celts. The Portuguese are wearing tunics as well. If you notice, the top and bottom are connected. A tunic is not a fustanella. I have told you many times before, the fustanella is not an exclusively Tosk dress. It only became so in the 19th century. But why am I talking, your own historians disagree: Not to mention the vast loads of contemporary Europeans in Greece described it the same way... You have your ego cut out for you huh?
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 15, 2010 19:18:44 GMT -5
so if it was spread by Arvanites why about 2/3 of them wore vrakes in the 19th century when we have enough sourses to know it?? And note that in Euboia where the south part is pure arvanitic except the city of Karystos and one two villages, wore vrakes .... while the central and north Euboia were pure Greek wore fustanelles....? And the Arvanites of Atticoboiotia which theoritically in 19th century wore poukamises and fustanelles in 17th century according to travellers(Cornelo Magni) wore benovrakia( big vrakes).... www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.htmlAlbanians were never neither many in population nor influential culturaly in order to had big impacts in places that hadn't even established... because fustanella was worn from Peloponnesos(the majority of Peloponnesos' Arvanites wore vrakes), Roumeli, Epiros, Thessaly and Macedonia(except the eastern which followed the island dressing-vrakes)... and worn also by Vlachs, and Slavs of Macedonia and Fyrom... That's how Albos dressed when they came to Greece: real albanians of 14th-15th century: 2.bp.blogspot.com/_iK2kIM-voec/Se9BNLxY2sI/AAAAAAAAArY/EGdwmdOGDCc/s1600/arvanitis-14os.JPG[/img] probably based on other real contemporally depictions : .. And the picture above with the Gerakaris has many pleats to be a tunic... And by the way if Greeks didn't wear fustanella what did we wear...? For sure not jeans... and vrakes are late western influence.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 15, 2010 19:44:59 GMT -5
The woodcuts are later creations and definitely not based on contemporart descriptions. Pre-modern usually transferred over the the contemporary age they were living in into their art. Look at depictions of Alexander the Great, for instance, or the vast number of Byblical scenes. The first drawing is the only likely realistic drawing and that shows deep Italian influence. The stradiot there was most likely from Italy. Your own Greek scholars disagree with you. Not to mention the plethora of contemporary European travellers in Greece who even mention that at the onset of the Greek War of Independence fustanellas were ordered from what is today Albania and what is more, in the region of Attica most of the fustanellas were made by Arvanites. I think it more reasonable to believe them than an amateur.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 15, 2010 19:54:04 GMT -5
The woodcuts are later creations and definitely not based on contemporart descriptions. Pre-modern usually transferred over the the contemporary age they were living in into their art. Look at depictions of Alexander the Great, for instance, or the vast number of Byblical scenes. The first drawing is the only likely realistic drawing and that shows deep Italian influence. The stradiot there was most likely from Italy. Your own Greek scholars disagree with you. Not to mention the plethora of contemporary European travellers in Greece who even mention that at the onset of the Greek War of Independence fustanellas were ordered from what is today Albania and what is more, in the region of Attica most of the fustanellas were made by Arvanites. I think it more reasonable to believe them than an amateur. What... ordered from Albania??? ;D??? And what scholars ... Gerolymatos...?? Commies can say anything they want in their wanna be reactiveness.... The sourse of the black white pictures are very contemporary... Dhimeter Frangu....Comentario de le cose de' Turchi, et del S. Georgio Scanderbeg, principe d' Epyr. Venice: Altobello Salkato, 1480....(at least that how they're described in wiki) and the first picture of the stratioti is of the 15th century, and its like they were described by the sources of the era... And i have the description of the Arvanites villagers of Attica iin front of my by the 17 century Italian Magni... they were vrakes...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 15, 2010 20:09:19 GMT -5
Vraka must be native to whatever region they were in... since there is no tradition whatsoever in Albania of such clothing. You wont find it anywhere. They most likely picked it up overtime in Greece. The native clothing of Arberesh is also Italian (until artificially changed in the 70s).
The images themselves are part of a manuscript of Barleti's book. They are later Italian creations. I have seen other similar manuscript ones, such as an Ottoman attack on Kruja.
Biris is yet another. There are others. And furthermore, the mention of the orders are from Finley, one among many.
And what is more, yea, Gerolymatos... a man who heads a department at one of Canada's best schools. Or should you have some better professor from Patras University.
If this was part of our clothing... we would have some memory of it... but we dont. The only costume commonly used among both Ghegs (principally Muslim, the Catholics dont tend to wear it) and Tosks (universal) is the fustanella.
Face it. Im far from the only person who says this. In almost any book I have looked into that describes the Greek war of independence... they generally do admit that it was the "Albanian kilt"
In fact, I would say that there is something almost Italian in the Vraka.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 15, 2010 20:16:48 GMT -5
Show me some sources that say that Ghegs were it...? And what made them to change it....to these pants...? the bastardization with local Slavs i should guess... the Ljaps wore this thing.. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Enea.jpg... i don't know today.... maybe they prefer fustanella for their folk clubs... Do you have any source about how the albos dressed in the 15th century...? especially the warriors that were the main proffesion of the albanian that came down to Greece...? The above are clear pictures of how they looked like... esecially the tall hat... search the page with that guy who gets money from Albos...how's his name...?Elsie... where a westerner describes that hat in 14th century saying that its worn by Greeks and Albanians and not Slavs... in google books you can find different staff: books.google.com/books?id=CwTWq4I87jMC&pg=PA69&dq=greek+fustanella&as_brr=3&cd=5#v=onepage&q=greek%20fustanella&f=falsePS. Mpiris was a city planner.... not historian...his book is at least amateur...
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 15, 2010 20:38:29 GMT -5
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 16, 2010 4:08:23 GMT -5
To my knowledge the use of the fustanella among Ghegs is limited strictly to muslim Shkodrans. To me this indicates that it is not native to the northern region and was probably adopted by them in imitation of the muslim Tosks who were the dominant Albanians in the Ottoman system.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 16, 2010 5:43:06 GMT -5
i had a little chat with an albanian friend of mine, and has the same opinion with plisbardhi. Now you thodhori you want to write and quote bs... In contrast in Greece fustanella was worn by the majority of Moraites, Roumeliotes, Thessalous, Epirotes and Makedones. To let you understand, those who lived in islands and those who had relations with the sea like the Arvanites of Argolida(see the Spetsiotes above) wore vraka. Check Sarakatsanous who didn't marry anyone who wasn't Sarakatsanos, not only Arvanites or Vlachous but rest Greeks too. Thessalian: Epirotes: Arkadian: Macedonian:
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 16, 2010 5:46:04 GMT -5
I don't want to claim that Greeks spread the fustanella in already Greek influenced south Albania, but its clearly an evolution of the ancient upokamison" poukamisa" that spread in 17-18th century.
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Jan 16, 2010 6:07:29 GMT -5
To my knowledge the use of the fustanella among Ghegs is limited strictly to muslim Shkodrans. To me this indicates that it is not native to the northern region and was probably adopted by them in imitation of the muslim Tosks who were the dominant Albanians in the Ottoman system. Actually, there are also references to it being worn in Sandzak, Serbia, just north of Kosova, by the Albanians there. These were regular highlanders, with recent Catholic origins from Kelmendi, no fancy townspeople from Shkoder. This suggests that the fustanella was probably more widely worn in the north than later on when only aristocratic townspeople wore it ... it was gradually replaced (probably for practical reasons in the frigid climate of the northern highlands) by the tightfitting tirqe (trousers) which are quite effective for isolation. That fustanellas became quite expensive might've been an additional reason for the poor highlanders to switch to the practical tirqe. Here are some paintings of Paja Jovanovic of Geg highlanders in fustanella;
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Jan 16, 2010 6:41:13 GMT -5
Foustanella was the "good" dress or the military, in daily life in majority of Greece wore the "father" of foustanella, poukamisa( ypokamison): like this Arvanitis from Korinthia: and this Tsakonas from Tsakonia-Arcadia: Epiros: Peloponnesos(Oscar Wilde...) Central Greece Aitoloakarnania Macedonia Peloponnesos festal Sarakatsanos of Thrace Chios island Arvanites from Ydra:
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Post by tsompanos on Jan 16, 2010 8:10:11 GMT -5
heres a dance that serbians also have
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Post by tsompanos on Jan 16, 2010 8:12:56 GMT -5
and this one is one i post just for the fun of it, from our fyromsky friends (the greeks will understand what i think is funny about this video)
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 16, 2010 12:52:14 GMT -5
To my knowledge the use of the fustanella among Ghegs is limited strictly to muslim Shkodrans. To me this indicates that it is not native to the northern region and was probably adopted by them in imitation of the muslim Tosks who were the dominant Albanians in the Ottoman system. Actually, there are also references to it being worn in Sandzak, Serbia, just north of Kosova, by the Albanians there. These were regular highlanders, with recent Catholic origins from Kelmendi, no fancy townspeople from Shkoder. This suggests that the fustanella was probably more widely worn in the north than later on when only aristocratic townspeople wore it ... it was gradually replaced (probably for practical reasons in the frigid climate of the northern highlands) by the tightfitting tirqe (trousers) which are quite effective for isolation. That fustanellas became quite expensive might've been an additional reason for the poor highlanders to switch to the practical tirqe. Here are some paintings of Paja Jovanovic of Geg highlanders in fustanella; Also, look at the pics of Albanians in Ulcin and you see the same thing.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 16, 2010 15:46:41 GMT -5
Ulqin was another urban center with much foriegn influence, basically a mini-Shkoder being considered its port and all. I just don't buy the idea of highlanders with the fustanella because there is no photographic evidence of it and no tradition I've ever read or heard about. Paja Jovanovic's style seems highly romanticized to me considering I can't imagine fustanella Albanians cheerfully interacting with Montenegrins like that. There was much bad blood in those times. I don't blame the artist for choosing the asthetic beauty of the Albanian fustanella for use in his paintings though. As far as Sanxhak goes, the Albanian surviving costume there doesn't even include a red blazer like in Malesia Madhe. Rather from what I have seen its basically the same as the tirqe-xhamadan all over design of the Rugovas, who also happen to be from the same highlands as the Sanxhak Albanians.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Jan 16, 2010 15:55:17 GMT -5
Pejanovic is not the only person depicting that. There is a different painting by a French or Englishman. It depicted an Albanian and a Montenegrin fighting. The two Albs in the picture are depicted wearing a fustanelle while the Montenegrin was in typical Montey clothes. The two were fighting near a cliff and about to fall off.
Also there are numerous depictions of Albanian frontiersman on the Albanian-Montenegrin border.
What I think happened in the north was the eliticizing of the Fustanella. It increasingly became something that mostly the wealthy elite Muslims would wear while the lower classes wore something else.
But in pre-photographic days (early 18th century) the depictions are clearly with it.
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Post by plisbardhi on Jan 17, 2010 4:38:01 GMT -5
I just don't see it. Back when Ghegs were being drawn wearing fustanellas it was the Romantic era when artists would be interested in depicting us the most, well, romantic they could.
I agree that the use of the fustanella was eliticized, but I would say that was the full extent of its nature in the north and never was it native or widespread in the highlands. To me it was also most likely a trend within the native Albanian-Ottoman military forces of Shkoder and Ulqin. Take for instance the clans of Malsia e Madhe, who were highly traditional and materially considerably more well of than say Dukagjini. Their costume, that of their leaders and bajraktars, was considerably rich and ornate, and without the fustanelle. Infact even so was that of Dukagjini's. Now the major point being that the issue of costume was very important, symbolizing the pride they had in their clan and their own personal peacock tendencies. I can't see those men as having abandoned the fustanella if it was ever theirs.
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