|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 28, 2008 22:37:03 GMT -5
"Just by looking at the dry facts, the only Serbian presence in Macedonia (before the 20th c.) was during the Serbian Empire. That presence lasted for about 30 years or so. On the other hand, as I mentioned, Macedonia was a part of both Bulgarian Empires for about 600-700 years. And, if we get really technical, there was a time when Bulgaria and Croatia had a common border. In fact, entire Serbia was a part of Bulgaria longer than Macedonia was a part of Serbia. "
I don't think you have read the entire 9 or so pages in the above link l gave you. Read it carefully, everything you are saying gets answered there.......If you want, post a reply in that topic!.
Anyway, l will keep writing about the interwar period here between 1918 and 1941, l just want to highlight that it wasn't past pro-serbian agenda's, but the opposite.
|
|
|
Post by benkovski on May 29, 2008 15:00:48 GMT -5
Novi, what you are posting doesn’t address the issue fairly. It is very one sided, and is the epitome of Yugoslav propaganda. The way for which, as I mentioned with respect to Macedonia, was paved by the pro-Serbian propaganda before it.
Anyway, if you could possibly post excerpts of demographic statistics of the region of Macedonia, that’d be more useful.
|
|
|
Post by rusebg on May 29, 2008 16:13:39 GMT -5
Novi, that is the truth mate. All your claims toward macedonia are gathered in some 30 years during medieval times. Hallo again, btw
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 30, 2008 22:08:06 GMT -5
^ Hey Ruse how have you been, l'm glad you come back . We need you here man, so the balance of debating is even Welcome back mate
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 30, 2008 23:05:09 GMT -5
.....continuing from my last post.......
The Central Croatian Union, in the presence of all its members on Belgian territory, adopted the following resolution on April 1, 1934:
1. The black date of December 1918 is the cause of the betrayal and deception of the Croatian people, which, on the orders of Alexander Karadjordjevich, is subordinated to Serbia.
2. This betrayal and deception consists in the fact that no one can deprive any nation of its sovereignty without a previous vote and without a free act of selfdetermination.
3. The responsibility for everything lies with Alexander Karadjordjevich, who has occupied Croatia by force and is tormenting and crucifying her.
4. Alexander is answerable with his life for the death of Stjepan Padich, Pavle Radich, Djura Basarichek, Milan Shflaj, Rosich, Hranilovich, Soldins and many other Croatian martyrs.
5. Alexander is responsible for all the lies being spread abroad, according to which everything is in the best possible order in Croatia, whereas in fact rivers of Croatian blood have been and are still being shed.
6. Alexander is responsible for the death of Oreb, Begovich, and others insofar as he permitted them to be condemned to death.
7. Alexander is also responsible for allowing the "Avala" agency to continue spreading lies to the effect that the Croatian people is content with the sentence imposed on Oreb and his followers and that Croats in Zagreb have protested against the Croatian Ustashe and their leaders. On the basis of all these facts, we condemn Alexander Karadjordjevich and the entire Belgrade government to death. The Croatian Ustashe must execute this sentence at the first possible opportunity. With this end in view, we address the following appeal to Dr. Ante Pavelich, chief of the Ustashe: "We urgently beg you, our leader, to order that, over and above other commands, this sentence be executed by a detchment of the Ustashe. "We want revenge, we want a struggle to the death, we want revolution. If it does not succeed at the first attempt, then we shall renew it a hundred times, but Croatia and the entire Croatian people are determined to set up a free and independant state. "Revolution will come, even though the whole of Europe be shaken to her very foundations. We are prepared to die to the last man, but we will not wait any longer."
In the organization and execution of Alexander's murder, the ties linking the two main separatist movements in Yugoslavia and their centers abroad were once more demonstrated. Nevile Henderson reightly emphasizes the fatal nature of this union when he says: "The murderer was a Bulgar, who had become practiced in shooting and bomb-throwing at the notorious Janka Pusta, an estate in Hungary. The plot had been staged by Pavelich (the present Croatian Quisling) and his group in italy, which provided the money." Hugh Seton-Watson comments: "No one doubts that the murder had been prepared long beforehand and that the Hungarian and italian governments had a hand in the whole affair." One of the chief obstacles in the way of a right - or - left-wing revolution in Yugoslavia had become removed: foreigners who assessed the significance of the murder from the European viewpoint unequivocally emphaszied its European and world importance. Hugh Seton-Watson says: "Undoubtedly, the murder of King Alexander was a catastrophe of international importance." Henderson, who was a man of broad vision and had a good grasp of the significance of events, says: "I was certain, and events bore me out, that the king's death was a misfortune not only for Yugoslavia, but for the whole of the Balkans and for Europe."
The rightv wing of IMRO, together with all the elements supporting it, was opposed by the left wing of this same organization, which, from the moment of its formation, had been growing more and more definitely Communist inclinded. Its establishment had been proceded by secret conversations between Moscow and the leaders of IMRO, who were seeking a way out of the impasse in which the organization then found itself. The federalist wing was most in favor of the following this path, while others were reluctant to reject it straight awayand preferred to wait and see what course of events would take. Elisabeth Barker states that in 1923 Todor Aleksandrov sent Dimitar Vlahov to Moscow together with Atanasov, from whom Vlahov later separated.
The formation of the united IMRO as such was preceded by several years of lively activity on the part of the Balkan Communist parties, united since January 1920 in the Balkan Communist Federation under the direct leadership of the Comintern. What took place was briefly as follows. From the foundation of this federation, the Comintern insisted on the preparation and execution of a Communist revolution in the Balkans. In a message addressed to the Balkan Communist parties, Zinovev pointed out that they were then in the phase of preparring a social revolution in the Balkans, and that, in order ton be sure of success, each of them ought to take active measures for a Communist revolution in its own country. For Zinovev, the primary aspect of the Macedonian problem was the possibility of revolution, though even he agreed that there was also the question of the "Macedonian Bulgars" under Yugoslavia. He made no mention, however, of those under Greece. The Fourth Congress of the Comintern, held in 1922, came out against the settling of the Greek refugees from Asia Minor in Aegean Macedonia, and demanded that the Greek Communist Party follow the same line. This was later also the attitude taken by the Balkan Communist Federation. At a conference of this federation held in 1922, Vasil Kolarov, on orders from the Comintern, raised the question of an autonomous Macedonia. After the overthrow of Aleksandar Stambolisky and the considerable assistance offered by right-wing elements of IMRO to Aleksandar Tsankov, the Comintern once more turned its attention to the Macedonian question. In a special proclamation, it warned the Macedonians of the danger threatening them from the new regime in Bulgaria, which they had helped on its way to power. This proclamation is described by Elisabeth Barker as "the first, still somewhat impreccise, formulation of its [the Comintern's] views on the Macedonian problem." In March 1924, the Balkan Communist Federation, at its Sixth Congress, announced its detailed program for Macedonia: it demanded the creation of a Macedonian republic which should enter a union of independant Balkan republics. Three statements in this resolution are important: (a) that none of the neighbouring states had a majority of its conationals in Macedonia and that therefore none of them was entitled to rule Macedonia; (b) that the slogan of unification and autonomy for Macedonia had penetrated to every courner of the country; and (c) that the Communist parties of the various Balkan countries were not applying pressure to national Macedonian and Thracian organizations, but desired the closest cooperation with them. The aim was to create a united revolutionary front. The fifth Congress of the Comintern, held between March and June 1924, also passed a resolution on the Macedonian and Thracian question which in fact amounted to a repetition of the resolution adopted by the Sixth Congress of the Balkan Communist Federation on the creation of a united Macedonia and a united Thrace. The Congress completely rejected the idea of autonomy for separate parts of Macedonia under any of the existing Balkan states, and instructed the Balkan Communist parties and the Balkan Communist Federation to assist the national-revolutionary movements among the oppressed peoples of Macedonia and Thrace. Control of the work of all the Communist parties was entrusted to the Balkan Communist Federation "in respect of the nationally questions and, especially, of the question of Macedonia and Thrace."
......continues on with my next post......
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on May 30, 2008 23:12:34 GMT -5
"was paved by the pro-Serbian propaganda before it"
From what l'm quoting are from *western historians* not serbian. You will notice names like:
Henderson Elisabeth Barker Seton-Watson Gilbert-in-der-maur Stephen Graham etc.....
Just read what l have written and you will see that its not about pro-serbian propaganda.
"Anyway, if you could possibly post excerpts of demographic statistics of the region of Macedonia, that’d be more useful."
Sure, when l have completed writing about the interwar period between 1918 to 1941, l will start a topic dealing with the slavs commencing around the 5th century up until today.
|
|
Kralj Vatra
Amicus
Warning: Sometimes uses foul language & insults!!!
20%
Posts: 9,814
|
Post by Kralj Vatra on May 31, 2008 1:15:33 GMT -5
Novi, that is the truth mate. All your claims toward macedonia are gathered in some 30 years during medieval times. Hallo again, btw rusebg, as it seems, the term makedonia, МАКЕДОНИЈА, ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ, MACEDONIA, is not universally defined in a unique and unambiguous manner. So, anyone has claims on this land, which spreads (according to the superset of all definitions) from the ionian sea to instambul and from Lamia (central greece) to Nis. One thing is for sure, the guys that write the term makedonia as "Macedonia", have managed to make the guys who write it "МАКЕДОНИЈА" and "ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ" to fight each other.
|
|
|
Post by Kassandros on May 31, 2008 4:09:25 GMT -5
These guys, regardless how they used to write Macedonia were fighting since ever eachohter. Always was the same thing; People of Slavic tribes in the begging who later were named Bulgarians wanted always to have an exodus to the Aegean Sea. Hellenic tribes who were later named Greeks were living in near the sea and didnt want that. That led to all the wars between Bulgarians and Greeks. More than 100 small or big wars after 6th A.D (Slavic invation in Balkans) took place based on this "exodus to Aegean" theory. These wars were named everytime with a different name: attack of Slavic tribes, Byzantine wars, Macedonian struggle, Balkans wars, WW2, etc etc. until today with a new form ,creation of Fyrom and claims over accupied land near the sea. Only the name changes It was always that exodus to the Aegean Sea... and it was always that Greek-Bulgarian wars. My personal belief is... that will happen again 100 times in the future. As far as Greeks exist and live near the sea and Slavic population want that exodus to the sea and to exist and live near the sea too... that will lead to 100 wars more with a different name everytime . History always repeats itself in strategic places of the planet. lets say... its our destiny since we live in a strategic place.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 3, 2008 1:47:22 GMT -5
....so it continues......
The establishment of the united IMRO was preceded by the appearance of the journal Balkanska federacija, which first came out on July 15, 1924, under the editorship of Dimitar Vlahov and continued publication until 1932, at first in Vienna and later in Frankfurt on Main. In its statement of policy, published in its first issue, the paper declared that its main task was "to work for the liberation and self-determination of the Balkan peoples and their federation. We shall fight for the grouping of all national-liberation movements in the Balkans in a single Balkan front, against all Balkan reaction and any European political moves to promote reaction in the Balkans." This first issue also contained a proclamation signed by Todor Aleksandrov, Alexsandar Protogerov and Peter Chaulev and entitled "A New Orientation of the Macedonian Revolutionary Movement." According to Vlahov, this proclamation was prepared during the course of conversations between April 1 and May 6, 1924. It was written by Vlahov and signed personally by Chaulev and Prorogerov, while Aleksandrov, who left immediately before, authorized the other two to sign in his name. Vlahov later wrote that Chaulev and Protogerov, "under pressure from the masses, were obliged to accept new principles governing the organization." This is the famous proclamation of May 6, 1924, expressing IMRO's complete ideological reorientation. "On examining this fundamental historical experience," the proclamation states, "IMRO has come to the final and firm conclusion that, in its revolutionary struggle for the freedom of Macedonia, it can only rely on the most progressive revolutionary movements in Europe, which are fighting against the imperialist policies of their government and against the existing peace treaties for genuine self-determination for their own and other peoples." At its Third Congress, held in June 1926, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, in a resolution on the political situation and the tasks of the Party, greeted the foundation of a united IMRO. "In view of the fact," the solution declares, "that the leadership of IMRO is serving the annexationist policy of the Bulgarian bourgeoisie, although if has recently been attempting to effect a rapproachment with the Serbian bourgeoisie, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia is obliged to take active measures to promote the renewal of national-revolutionary organizations in Macedonia on the basis of the May manifesto."
.......continues next post....
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 3, 2008 21:57:05 GMT -5
....continuing on......
In this context, the "most progressive revolutionary movements in Europe" should be taken to mean primarily the Soviet Union, which was already active in the Balkans. Apart from the Communists, the influence of the Comintern hadc extended to certain socialist groups: on January 15, 1925, a conference of the Balkan Socialist Federation was held which was attended by all those Balkan socialists who had declared themselves in favor of joining the Third International. At the congress held at Vukovar on June 20-25, 1920, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia advocated the formation of "a single front made up by the revolutionary proletariat of the Balkan and Danube lands." Here, too, the way had been prepared for the work of the United IMRO. In september 1924, the Balkan Communist Federation addressed a manifesto to the population of Macedonia and all Balkan workers in which, inter alia, it was stated: "The Balkan Communist Federation, together with the Communist parties of Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Greece and the working population of the Balkans, will spare no assistance to the Macedonian people, nor will it ever harm the true solidarity of its [the Macedonian people's] organizations." Soon after this, Rakovsky, the Soviet envoy in London, in an interview with Dr. Stefan Steiner, defined the official Soviet attitude toward the Macedonian movement: "The attitude of the Soviet government toward the Macedonian movement has already been defined several times by the representatives of that government. A short while ago, at the London conference, I suggested to the British government, that the nationality problem in Yugoslavia and Macedonia be solved by promoting the idea of a Yugoslav federation. We have no reasons for concealing the fact that Macedonian leaders have several times requested our assistance in the struggle for the independence of their country." Stating that Todor Aleksandrov had himself appealed to him, Rakovsky said: "With the greatest willingness we are, by diplomatic means, assisting the Macedonians, whose cause we regard as just." In all its subsequent manifestoes, appeals and articles, the group centered on the journals Balkanska federacija and Makedonsko delo placed its chief hopes on help from Moscow. Moreover, they saw in the USSR an ideal state which, as the resolution adopted by the Central Committee of the United IMRO in October 1926 says, had "raised the principle of the self-determination of peoples and realised it on its own territory, since it had guaranteed to all its peoples the right to make their own decisions freely and to decide their destinies for themselves." "We oppressed Balkan peoples." wrote N.Matijevich, "see and must see, in the Soviet Union has given complete national freedom, for the Soviet Union has given complete national freedom to all the peoples of the former tsarist empire, both great and small. The collapse of the Soviet Union would mean the victory of the imperalist powers, and for our Balkan nations, eternal slavery." Summing up these hopes in the USSR, Sider wrote, in his article "Balkan Federation and the Balkan Peoples": "The Soviet Union is interested in constructiong a Balkan federation, not only because it is the center of world revolution, but above all because the Balkan region, with its existing regimes, constitues an important sector on the anti-Soviet front. A federation of free Balkan people's republics, having secured its immunity from the attacks of international imperialism, will become the natural ally of the Soviet Union.....When speaking of revolution in the Balkans, we must not assume that it will break out simultaneously in all the states concerned. The liberation of the ensalved and oppressed Balkan peoples will be the result of a series of revolutions."
continues next post.....
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 4, 2008 1:49:29 GMT -5
^ continues......
The entire work of the United IMRO was conducted under the wing of Moscow. Its immediate goal was to provoke, with full-scale assistance from the USSR, a communist revolution in the Balkans which should lead to the emergence of a free Macedonia. The appeal addressed by the Central Committee of this organization of the Macedonian people at the beginning of October 1927 declared: "There is today only one sure way of securing freedom for the Macedonian people, and that is revolution on a massive, national scale." In the leading article of its first issue, Makedonsko delo declared its program to be "the liberation and unification of the Macedonian people and its entry into a federation with other Balkan nations. Its slogan is 'an independent Macedonia and Balkan federation." Makedonsko delo energetically set about settling accounts with the Supreme Committee in Bulgaria and with the federalists in emigration: conspicuous are the efforts of the group centered on this paper to rid itself of all possible rivals and secure recognition for itself alone as the true champion of Macedonian revolution. Pointing out that six papers were published by the Macedonians in Sofia, two of them in French, and that Makedonsko saznanije, apart from others in America, had come out in Vienna since December 1923, the paper states: "All these papers, like those of the so-called Macedonian Political Organization in America, are written in one and the same spirit-that of Bulgarian nationalism, of the Bulgarian Supreme Committee. They do not express the discontenet and suffering of the Macedonian people." The article "Which Way?" criticizes Macedonian emigres in Bulgaria: "These people were agents of the policy of the Bulgarian state with regard to Macedonia, and that policy was annexation of Macedonia by Bulgaria. These Macedonian workers have appeared in the Macedonian liberation movement as instruments of the aggressive policy of the Bulgarian government." The United IMRO, which came into existence as a result of the manifesto of May 6, 1924, consisted of the left wing of IMRO and members of the former Seres group, the emigre Communist Union, the Union of Macedonian Emigres and the Illinden Emigre Organization. "We representatives of all the Macedonian groups," this manifesto declares, "hereby announce to the Macedonian people that the unification of the scattered forces of the Macedonian movement in a single Macedonian revolutionary front is an accomplished fact. The conference for setting up a united revolutionary movement, which was held in October, was attended by representatives of all the organizations and groups in Macedonia that accept the principles set forth in the Manifesto." In the constitution that was drawn up for the new organization, Article 1 stated that the organization's aim was "to fight for the establishment of a free and independent Macedonia within the limits of her geographical and economic frontiers and to equip her as an independent political entity fit to become a fully-flegded member of a future Balkan federation." Article 3 stated that the organization "should establish close contact with all national-revolutionary and social-revolutionary organizations and parties in the Balkans which support the principle of the self-determination of peoples and which are prepared to collaborate in the task of turning Macedonia into an independent political entity." According to Article 4, the new Macedonian state was to be founded upon "complete national, political and cultural equality for all nationalities living in Macedonia." In his book Izdajnici makedonske stvari (Betrayers of the Macedonian Cause), published by the organization's Central Committee, D.Vlahov states that the organization counted on the assistance of all revolutionary bodies in the Balkans, "and especially on the moral, material and politcal support of the USSR." "The struggle of the oppressed Balkan peoples," desclared the manifesto issued by the Central Committee of the organization at the time of its foundation, "is common to all of them. These peoples are prepared to aid with all the means in their power the struggle of the Macedonian people for free national self-determination, just as the Macedonian people, for its part, is prepared to lend its whole-hearted support to their struggle for national liberation."
It was this idea of collaboration between all the revolutionary groups in the Balkans that gave birth to the Balkan Committee of National-Revolutionary Organizations, embracing the Committee for the Liberation of Kosovo, the Committee of the Albanian Organization for National Liberation and the Central Committee of the Dobruja Revolutionary Organization. These were later joined by the Revolutionary Committee of Western Thrace. The leading article of Balkanska federacija for August 20, 1930, entitled "The Path of the Kosovo Revolutionary Committee," stated that this committee had established "close contact with certain Balkan national-revolutionary organizations" which were "fighting the same oppressors." In April 1927, the Kosovo and Albanian committees issued a joint declaration in which the former defined attitude toward the opponents of freedom for the Albanians of Albania and Kosovo. This declaration was signed, on behalf of the Albanian committee, by Fan S. Noli, Lano Borshi, Dr. Omer Nishani, Konstanin Boshnjak, Dr. Nush Nushati and Captain Azis Cami, and, on behalf of the Kosovo committee, by Bedri Pejani, Kiamil Balla and Major Ibrahim Jakova. Bedri Pejani sunsequently joined King Zogu. Later, the Kosovo committee associated itself with the other Balkan revolutionary organizations to form the Balkan Committee.
continues next post.....
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 7, 2008 7:04:53 GMT -5
.....continuing from last post.....
Memoranda were submitted by the Balkan Committee to various international bodies, seeking the liberation of Macedonia and of the other national groups represented on it. One such memorandum was submitted to the Third Congress of National Minorities held ar Geneva in 1927. Like the rest, this document sought the creation of a federation of Balkan republics, emphasizing that this offered the only possible solution of national disputes in the Peninsula: "This federation," the memorandum stated, "will contribute to peace, progress and the advancement of the peoples of the Peninsula, and will represent a powerful force capable of resisting the aspirations of the Western European imperialist powers, which, by their Balkan policy, are now preparing for a future war." In October 1928, after the unfortunate incident in the Belgrade National Assembly, the Balkan Committee appealed to the Croatian people and the population north of the Danube and Sava rivers to cut off all relations with Belgrade. "The Belgrade parliament," said the appeal, "should no longer legislate for you. Your and our representatives can only enter a central body that shall represent a union of nationally free states." On October 3, 1929, the Balkan Committee signed an appeal addressed to the chairman of the International Peace Congress that was being held in Athens. Inter alia, this appeal declared: "The oppressed Balkan peoples and national minorities are taking their cause of liberation into their own hands, and, side by side with the oppressed masses of workers of the ruling nations, are waging a common struggle by revolutionary means-the only means in the Balkans of fighting for their complete liberation from fascist dictatorship and national oppression." In the same year, the "national-revolutionary organizations of the Balkans" issued an appeal against what they described as "terrorism" in Yugoslavia: the people were openly called upon to revolt against the authority of the state. "For this purpose," the appeal stated, "we call upon the oppressed masses to elect from among their own ranks committees for carrying on the struggle. In every town and village, however small, such committees must be set up, consisting of peasants and workers bent on revolution and of honest and progressive member of the intelligenista." To mark the second anniversary of the regime set up by Alexander on January 6, 1929, the Balkan Committee issued its "Manifesto to the Ensalved Peoples of Yugoslavia." "The dictatorship," says this manifesto, "has deprived all the non-Serbian peoples of their national name and character. It has dissolved all political organizations, all national associations and all cultural, economic and sports societies.........If the Greater Serbian imperalists involve you in a war with the Soviet Union, the one state that has given complete freedom to all peoples, resist this war and turn your arms against the Greater Serbian imperalists."
At the end of 1931, the Balkan Committee issued a protest against terrorism and persecution of Macedonian revolutionary groups in Bulgaria. This protest was directed exclusively against Ivan-Vancha Mihailov and his group, with reference to whom it stated: "This gang has nothing in common with the movement to liberate the Macedonian population. On the contrary, as hirelings of the Bulgars who are bent on revenge, it is terrorizing and killing all progressive and militant elements in the Macedonian liberation movement, whose ideal is an independant Macedonia and a Balkan federation." In May 1932, the Balkan Committee once more issued a declaration attacking Mihailov, alleging that he had gathered about himself "a gang of murderers and violators of their own people," and that he was the "hireling of reactionary and fascist elemts in Bulgaria and an agent of imperalism and counterrevolution."
When the great Sokol rally was due to be held in Prague in 1932, the "Macedonian youth" of Yugoslavia issued an appeal for a boycott of the rally. This appeal, which at the same time was a call for revolution and the destruction of Yugoslavia, stated: "Only by fighting Balkan and international imperialism, in concert with the revolutionary workers and peasants of the world and with the support of the Soviet Union-the only country in which there is neither national nor social persecution-can we achieve the liberation of Macedonia and the creation of a federation of free Balkan peoples." A manifesto addressed by the Central Committee of the United IMRO to the Macedonians under Greek rule declared: "The communist Party has been fighting, and continues to fight, for the defense of the enslaved macedonian population. It has inscribed on its banner the motto "The right of the Macedonian people to self-determination, and a single and independant Macedonia."
In May of the same year, D.Vlahov, in his article "Revolutionary Fermentation in Macedonia," conjured up a picture of imminent revolution in Yugoslavia, in which the "oppressed masses of Yugoslavia, in alliance with the other Balkan countries and with the powerful support of all revolutionary elemts outside the Balkans," would "cast off the bonds of slavery and set up their own regime-the regime of the working masses of the Balkan Peninsula."
From the moment of its foundation, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia had worked for a Communist revolution in Yugoslavia, in which the Macedonian question was to play a significant part. Hampered by internal disorganization and the fact that its standing in Moscow was not particularly high, it failed, during the first years of its existence, to workout a definite policy of its own, particularly with regard to the Macedonian question, its attitude toward which was dictated by the Comintern and the Balkan Communist Federation. Its Serbian section, however, which had sprung from the Serbian-Democratic Party, had adopted a definite attitude on this question which coincided, in fact, with that of European socialism, which was less concerned with reality than with its own fixed theories: for the socialist of Europe, as for those of Serbia, the liberation of the Balkan peoples was of interest only insofar as it improved the position of the proletariat and the prospects of the class war. "National independence," wrote Radnichke novine in 1912, "is an essential principle of the class struggle. A nation must be free in every respect if the proletariat intends to offer determined resistance to its social or class enemy."
The Serbian socialists were opposed to the idea that Macedonia should be assigned either to Serbia or to Bulgaria-still more, that it should pass to Greece: they were equally determined that it should not be divided among these three states. "As for us primitive Balkan socialists," they said, "none of us, with the exception of the broadminded Bulgars, is in favour either of so-called balance of power of any kind of hegemony in the Balkans: all we want is Balkan unity, the economic, cultural and political unifications of all parts of the Balkans in a wonderful federation of democratic republics, with Macedonia as an equal and autonomous member, for this alone can guarantee its members free development of their national characteristics and complete political and economic independence for the whole."
In a discussion with G.K.Rakovsky, Popovich visulaized this "autonomous Macedonia," not as an entirely independant state, but merely as a member enjoying equal rights in a Balkan federation. For him, it was absurd that Macedonia should become a new and independant state. "The Balkan people have suffered and still are suffering from their lack of unity. The creation of a Macedonian state would merely mean one step further into medieval particularism, which is in complete opposition to the aspirations and needs of the new era."
Sima Markovich, one of the best Marxist theoreticians among the first generation of Serbian Communists, also failed to arrive at a solution of the problem. At the end of his book Nacionalno pitanje u svetlosti marksizma (The National Question in the Light of Marxism), he pointed out that the peace treaty signed in Bucharest in 1913 had divided the region into three parts-Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek. Markovich also saw a solution of the question in the formation of a union of Balkan peoples, "of which an autonomous macedonia would be a full member within the frontiers determined by a plebiscite."
......continues next post......
|
|
|
Post by benkovski on Jun 8, 2008 3:18:40 GMT -5
Novi, Serbian propaganda acted as a catalyst to the communist Yugoslavian way of politics towards Macedonia.
The fact that you state a few western names doesn’t make the issue any different. You are filtering a one sided opinion and focusing on a brief moment in time. But, yet I fail to see what your basis is on thinking that Macedonians are ethnically related to Serbians. There were no large scale population shifts from Serbia toward Macedonia at any point in time.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 8, 2008 22:35:31 GMT -5
^ hold your horses!, yes, l'm telling you about a period of time and l'm also telling you that serbian propaganda was not the cause, there was numerous factors at play. Besides, this is not one sided. I have many books in front of me that l'm using here for you, they are mostly western based!.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 8, 2008 22:40:27 GMT -5
When l'm done about the Macedonian question between the 2 world wars, l will show you some documents, in another topic.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 8, 2008 23:36:02 GMT -5
......continues from last post......
It is significant that Markovich nowhere speaks of a separate Macedonian people. Instead, he emphasizes that the "ethnic hotch-potch of Macedonia greatly complicates the Macedonian question. This question will never be solved if we approach it solely with the interests of one or another Balkan people in mind. It can only be solved when we consider the interests of all the Balkan peoples, united in a single economic and political union founded upon the absolute equality of rights of all the nations and national groups living in the Balkans."
At the elections for the Constituent Assembly of the Kingdom of the Serbs , Croats and Slovenes-the first elections to be held after the country's unification-thirty-three percent of the votes cast in Yugoslav Macedonia were for the Communist Party of Yugoslavia. It is emphasized by researchers that these votes cast, not by people who were genuinely Communistially inclinded, but by people who had been misled. Moreover, the traces of former socialist activity still survived, particularly among the urban population, which was now understandably oriented toward the Yugoslav Communists. The latter, however, so far as may be judged from materials already published, seem for some to have been unable to make up their minds on the Macedonian question. Right up to 1923, there is no evidence whatever concerning their attitude; then, at its third national conference, held in December of that year in Belgrade, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, under the influence of the Comintern rather than of its own accord, advanced a more or less definite policy. In Paragraph 8 of its resolution on the nationality question, it emphasizes that none of the neighboring states has a majority in Macedonia and that the struggle for its independance should be waged, in the first place, by the Macedonian peasants, who must unite with the workers to form a government of workers and peasants for an independant Macedonia, which would voluntarily enter a federation of independant Balkan republics. The importance of this conference lies in its adoption of a special resolution on the Macedonian and Thracian question, by which the party "acknowledged for the first time the existence of a Macedonian national question." This resolution advocated the formation of a "single and autonomous Macedonia," which should unite with other Balkan lands to form a federative republic, since only this could "secure peace, independance and freedom of development for all the Balkan lands." Such a federation was to be a "voluntary union of independant Balkan republics, numbering among its members the republics of Macedonia and Thrace." The Independant Workers' Party of Yugoslavia, a legally recognized wing of the banned Yugoslav Communist Party, showed somewhat greater reserve in its resolutions adopted on April 13-14, 1924, in defining its attitude toward the Macedonian question. The gist of these resolutions was that the party would "develop the greatest activity among the working masses of Macedonia, entering into the closest possible contact with them by means of propaganda and the press, and assist their struggle for liberation." In its resolution on the nationality question in Yugoslavia, the national conference of this party was much franker in defining its attitude. "In view of the preceding," this resolution states, "it is the duty of the Party to organize the working masses of the oppressed peoples and openly lead a common struggle for their right of secession, i.e, to assist the movement of the oppressed peoples with the object of forming independant states of Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro, and of liberating the Albanians." In Point 5 of the "Platform of the Workers' and Peasants' Bloc," the party demanded "complete recognition of the right of all the oppressed peoples of Yugoslavia to political independence and freedom," and named as its objective "independent republics of Croatia, Slovenia, Macedonia and Montenegro and freedom for the Albanian people." During the same year, Kosta Novakovich, a prominent Serbian Communist, published his brochure "Macedonia for the macedonians, and Land for the Peasants," which was confiscated, he himself being sentenced to six months' imprisonment.
In June 1924, the Comintern, in Point 7 of its resolution on the nationality question in Yugoslavia, unequivocally demanded the destruction of Yugoslavia as a state. According to the Comintern, which was apparently dissatisfied with the attitude hitherto of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia on the Macedonian question, "the general slogan of the right of peoples to self-determination, advanced by the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, must be presented as the secession of Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia from yugoslavia and their establishment as independant republics."
The Third Congress of the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, held in June 1926 in Vienna, sharply criticized the work of the party on the nationality and agrarian questions in macedonia, and demanded that more energetic measures be taken. In a resolution on the political situation, it was stated that the party "must lend active assistance to all national revolutionary movements with the object of hastening the collapse of capitalism and the victory of proletarian revolution.....The Party must actively promote the revival of national-revolutionary organizations in Macedonia on the basis of the May mainfesto [of 1924]."
This congress made no new contribution to the party's policy on the Macedonian question. One gets the impression that the party was obliged to subordinate its policy on this question to the will and aims of the Comintern: more and more, it was becoming the instrument of the Comintern and ceasing to be an independent factor caable of influencing the course of events. In a resolution adopted by the congress on the nationality question, the Party demanded a "federation of workers' and peasants' republics in the Balkans, since only the voluntary union of organized peoples as workers' and peasants' states" could "bring about a genuine solution of the nationality question. The Party will meanwhile constantly emphasize that the road to a solution of the nationality question lies in a revolutionary struggle of the masses of workers and peasants directed at destroying capitalism and establishing workers' and peasants' republics."
The year 1927 saw no new developments in the policy of the Yugoslav Communists on the subject of Macedonia. In May of that year, Kosta Novakovich published an article on Macedonia and the Balkans in which he put the problem as follows: "This is how we Communists look at the Balkan problem: the Macedonian question is the most important element in the Balkan problem, so that the solution of the former is a prerequisite for the solution of the latter......We Yugoslav Communists extend a brotherly hand to all Balkan revolutionaries who aspire to the liberation of their peoples and are fighting to this end." When the attempt was made on the life of General Kovachevich, regional committees of the Communist Party of yugoslavia and the Union of Communist Youth of Yugoslavia issued a manifesto stating: "The Communist Party of Yugoslavia would welcome and assist any struggle for the liberation of the enslaved peoples of Yugoslavia, particularly the liberation of the Macedonian people, which is living in the greatest hardship......Armed rebellion and civil war - these are the means by which Macedonia will acquire her national freedom. Until that moment comes, she must work on organizing the masses and preparring them for a bloody conflict. In this way, she will become united, instead of being divided among Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece. Only the creation of a Balkan federation embracing Macedonia as a free state enjoying full membership will solve the Macedonian national question."
continues on next post.....
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 9, 2008 0:14:47 GMT -5
....continues.....
In August 1928, Serbian Communist students issued an appeal against terrorism in Macedonia. "Bloody experience has taught the peoples of Macedonia," they said, "that they cannot achieve full national freedom so long as the present Balkan states rule over them. Hence the formation among the masses of a Macedonian ideology tending toawrd the establishment of a single and entirely independant Macedonia in which all nationalities will enjoy complete equality of rights."
Such was the atmosphere when the Fourth Congress of the Yugoslav Communist Party was held at Dresden in October 1928. At this congress, a great deal was said about the so-called "Serbianization" of Macedonia, which was to serve as a "strategic base for the hegemony of the Greater Serbian bourgeoisie" and to "extend the national springboard" of this bourgeoisie for the implementation of its "hegemonistic policy against the other nations of Yugoslavia."
At this congress, the Yugoslav Communist Party defined its attitude toward the question of Macedonia's secession from Yugoslavia much more clearly than it had done hiterto. A resolution on the economic and political situation in Yugoslavia and the tasks of the party stated: "The Party affirms the solidarity of the revolutionary workers and peasants of the other nations of Yugoslavia, particularly of Serbia, with the Macedonian national-revolutionary movement which has been revived in the form of the United IMRO, and calls upon the working class to lend wholehearted assistance to the struggle for an independent and united Macedonia."
This may be said to have remained the party's attitude toward the Macedonian question. The events of January 6, 1929, in Yugoslavia threw the party out of its rut, and its leaders were thereafter too preoccupied to think of Macedonia. Even eight years later, at the Fourth national Conference, held at Ljubljana in december 1936, nothing new was said. In connection with the Macedonian question, it was merely stated that the revolutionary struggle should be continued, since it should be a struggle "for the formation of a workers' and peasants' Soviet regime." According to Elisabeth Barker, this silence of the Yugoslav Communist Party on the subject of Macedonia may have been due to a tacit abandonment of the anti-Versailles stand on Macedonia in particular or Yugoslavia in general. National Socialist Germany had become the cheif spokesman of the movement for revising the Versailles Treaty, and since she was at that time expressly hostile toward the Soviets, the Comintern no longer considered it expedient to force a territorial dismemberment of Yugoslavia. Talk of the need for a Communist revolution in the Balkans also ceased. At a meeting held in Moscow in the summer of 1936, the Central Committee of the Yugoslav Communist Party adopted a resolution explaining its change of tactics in the nationality question by the increased aggressiveness of the fascist and imperalist powers, which were anxious to "exploit the national movements in the interests of war and their own plans for aggrandizement." It was further stated that these considerations "prompted the Communist Party of Yugoslavia to change its tactics in the nationality question without abandoning the principle of the right of all peoples to self-determination, including secession. The Party opposes the breaking up of the territory at present occupied by the state of Yugoslavia, since it aims at achieving a reorganization of that state by peaceful means, on a basis of national equality of rights. In the present circumstances, any movement aimed at the secession of the oppressed peoples would only assist the fascist imperalists and their warlike aims."
That this was indeed merely a change of tactics and not an abandonment of ultimate aims with regard to Macedonia was demonstrated by the course of events during and after World War II. The Communist Party of Yugoslavia consistently maintained its anti-Serbian positions in the Macedonian question. On October 12, 1945, Milovan Djilas stated at Skopje: "Our party and its Central Committee, not only during the early days of the struggle, but also in the arduous fight against Greater serbian reactionary hegemonistic regimes, emblazoned on its banners the freedom and rights of the Macedonian people: it has remained, and will remain, true to this slogan.....In the struggle for the rights of the Macedonian people, the Party has given numberless victims."
END.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 9, 2008 0:27:59 GMT -5
Sources for the Macedonian Question between the Two World Wars:
1) Elisabeth Barker, Macedonia: Its Place in Balkan Power Politics, London, 1950, p.29
2) Hugh Seton-Watson, Osteuropa zwischen den Kriegen, Paderborn, 1948, p.366
3) Memoires presentes a la Conference da la Paix a Lausanne parle delegue de l' Association macedonienne musulmane, p.17
4) Th. Capidan, Die Mazedorumanen, Bukarest, 1941, p.142.
5) Constantine Stephanove, "Macedonia and the Peace Conference," L'independance macedonienne, Nov.1, 1919, p.27
6) Dimo Kazasov, Burni godini (The Stormy Years), Sofia, 1949, p.114
7) Stephen Graham, Alexander of Yugoslavia, London 1938, p.132-33.
8) Gilbert in der Maur, Die Jugoslawen einst und jetzt, Leipzig Vienna, 1936
9) Simeon Jeftimoff, Die mazedonische Frage, p.25.
10) Ante Pavelich, Aus dem Kample um den selbstandigen Staat Kroatien, Vienna, 1931, p.93.
11) Nevile Henderson, Wasser unter den Brucken, Zurich, 1949, p.288
12) D.Valhov, Iz istorije makedonskog naroda (From the History of the Macedonian People), Belgrade, 1950, p.47.
|
|
|
Post by benkovski on Jun 12, 2008 16:19:16 GMT -5
There usually are many contributing factors to any story, I’m not disputing that. But the important thing here is that you seem to have misread my earlier posts. I never stated that Serbian propaganda was directly the cause. I stated that ultra nationalist movements of violence and propaganda order on the Bulgarian population of Macedonia by the Serbian government were what paved the way for the Yugoslavian propaganda movements that aimed to further de-Bulgarize the region of Macedonia.
Many books that use the exact same arguments to prove a single point, but are simply written in a different way is still a one sided perspective.
Regardless, that’s not important at the moment. My question was; could you explain to me, what is your basis of claiming that Macedonians are a mix of Bulgarians and Serbians? Most sources that I’ve come across claim Macedonians to be solely Bulgarian. Some sources claim that Macedonians are a group of Slavs who didn't have a strong national consciousness developed; however, those sources mention that Macedonians prefered to identify with Bulgaria rather than any of their other neighbors.
Furthermore, the Serbian influence as I mentioned was mostly linguistic. Even though there’s such an influence, a Serbian and a Macedonian could not have a smooth and uninterrupted conversation, whereas a Bulgarian and a Macedonian could easily converse with one another with virtually no linguistic holds. Currently the Macedonian dialect is slightly different from standard Bulgarian, and even Serbian, as Yugoslavian politics were aiming to implement local words that were used only in some Macedonian villages. Though, Bulgarians and Macedonians can still converse with much greater ease. Whereas the same cannot be said about Serbians and Macedonians.
|
|
|
Post by Novi Pazar on Jun 12, 2008 20:23:07 GMT -5
"I stated that ultra nationalist movements of violence and propaganda order on the Bulgarian population of Macedonia by the Serbian government were what paved the way for the Yugoslavian propaganda movements that aimed to further de-Bulgarize the region of Macedonia."
Read again what l have written.
|
|