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Post by thracian08 on Jul 23, 2009 17:22:34 GMT -5
My point is that there are Turks that became other people's in the Balkan - and became Christian, so that there are a lot of people that look Turkish in the Balkan countries as well.
Yes & no Pyrros. There are white looking people in Central Asia as well, and Turks are not the same as Mongolians - they are different people.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 23, 2009 21:41:36 GMT -5
^ thats just a technicality Thracian. Indo-European peoples settled in central asia, then later Persian peoples came through. Turks commenced as a mongoloid race from the Altai region, they absorbed caucasoid elements as they moved westward. The Turkish language is grouped with Mongolian, Korean and Japanese?
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 24, 2009 13:58:23 GMT -5
Turks are not considered a Mongoloid race though. They are Turanian, a mix of white and Asian. Even Mongolians have blonde hair. Did you know that ? Chinese and all the rest of the Asian people do not have any blonde hair or blue eyes. Oguz Turks are the most white looking - Azeri's Turks from Turkey. The Turks that look most Asian were the areas invaded by the Mongols. Turkic people in Chinese chronicles are described as with a moustache and beard - which Chinese people do not have much of. They even found mummies in Central Asia belonging to Turkic people with blonde and red hair. They are classified as Europid. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europid_race
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 25, 2009 4:09:18 GMT -5
Yes the mummies are indo-europeans, as evident by the style of clothing found on them which resembles the present day celtic peoples of western europe, these peoples didn't speak an asiatic language and whats more they are the ones who gave the asians the swastika. Thracian, tell me, is Turkish an Aryan language, as l know, its grouped within the Altai branch of languages; they include Mongolian, Korean, native siberian and japanese.
What l was highlighting above was the fact that Persian peoples migrated along the silk road into china and these traders mixed with local turkic peoples, as evident, in western china......then when the turkics moved westward they again absorbed more caucasoid elements...good example is the Bulgars!.
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 27, 2009 14:50:09 GMT -5
The mummies costumes and outfits are the same as Turkish outfits actually. I saw a documentary on Tv on the mummies explaining this. Turkish language is Ural-Altaic. But that does not mean that language necessarily has to do with physical features.
Maybe a long long time ago Turks mixed with other people in Central Asia. Who knows? The Turkic peoples display a great variety of ethnic types. They possess physical features ranging from Caucasoid to Northern Mongoloid. Mongoloid and Caucasoid facial structure is common among many Turkic groups, such as Chuvash people, Tatars, Kazakhs, Uzbeks and Bashkirs. There has been much debate about the racial nature of the original Turkic-speaking ancestors, with some in the past presuming a "Ural-Altaic race" with Caucasoid features at one end of the spectrum and Mongoloid features at the other.
This is actually what I believe ! First one thing is to be noted that The Turks as a nation are mixed and they do not possess a certain boundary to be bound to, one can find an Uighur family in Anatolia and an Oghuz Turk or Turkoman in most eastern part of Turkistan north of China. There are only one certain clan in greater numbers than other while all are mostly mixed. Turks do not possess a certain shape of face to be marked for the righthood of breed. The Khaqan Changiz was said to be blue eyed, similarly among the Central Asian Turks like Uzbeks or Kazakh one can find difference of colour and facial appearance. In some cases change in atmosphere, converts got mixed and inter marriages like those of Asia Minor has changed the features but even then the manners and mostly body appearances preserve.
I can tell you that anywhere more Turkic, in northern Iran (Azeris) and northern India where Turks live, and Uzbeks in Afganistan have much more colored eyes, and blonde hair than Afgan, Armenian, and Iranian peoples, yet they are Aryans.
My husband is Yoruk -Yoruk's are the least mixed Turkish people in Turkey - he has green eyes, and brown hair. His father is blonde and green eyed. He is white.
Tajiks are actually racially Turkic, but speak Iranian language - the belief is that they lost their language - they say so themselves.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 28, 2009 23:58:13 GMT -5
^ What you got to understand is that the oringinal Turks *began* as a mongoloid race from Eastern Asia. The Turks of Asia Minor are 99.9% caucasoid today and don't look anything like their ancient ancestors. I get the feeling Thracian that your telling the story in reverse as thou Turks oringinated from Asia Minor or western central asia and mingled with mongoloid races as they moved eastward? Anyway regarding the Tocharian mummies: Many of the mummies have been found in very good condition, owing to the dryness of the desert and the desiccation of the corpses it induced. The mummies share many typical Caucasoid body features (elongated bodies, angular faces, recessed eyes), and many of them have their hair physically intact, ranging in color from blond to red to deep brown, and generally long, curly and braided. It is not known whether their hair has been bleached by internment in salt. Their costumes, and especially textiles, may indicate a common origin with Indo-European neolithic clothing techniques or a common low-level textile technology. Chärchän man wore a red twill tunic and tartan leggings. Textile expert Elizabeth Wayland Barber, who examined the tartan-style cloth, claims it can be traced back to Anatolia, the Caucasus and the steppe area north of the Black Sea.[5] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummiesIf it did derive from Anatolia, it most certainly did so from pre-Turkish natives....remember Thracian, Turks, Turkicised the native Anatolian population and many traditions was taken from these natives which todays Turks have. Altaic language family: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 29, 2009 0:04:58 GMT -5
Finally: Their prehistoric point of origin was the hypothetical Proto-Turkic region of the Far East including North China, especially Xinjiang Province and Inner Mongolia with parts of Mongolia and Siberia possibly as far west as Lake Baikal and the Altai Mountains. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_migrationsHence why the language is an eastern language the Turks speak.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 29, 2009 1:03:57 GMT -5
then when the turkics moved westward they again absorbed more caucasoid elements...good example is the Bulgars!. Or the Avars in the case of the Serbs. Its so refreshing to see how racist you are Novi. And that comming from a former Bulgarian. Learn your history, pal, Bulgarians are known for being tolerant towards the others.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 29, 2009 1:29:14 GMT -5
^ No Ioan, serbs call themselves after a slavic tribe. Serbs did not mix with Avars. Whereas Bulgarians carry a Turkic name!. Finally, no Bulgarian slav ever became serbian, its the other way round. Anyway, was l racist for stating the obivious
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jul 29, 2009 1:46:07 GMT -5
Novi is a former Bulgarian?
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 29, 2009 2:17:49 GMT -5
^ No Ioan, serbs call themselves after a slavic tribe. I thought Serboi were Iranians but ok, I learn smth new everyday. They did according to most historians. Its not sure Bolgars were Turkic. Not according to the historic data. U said it in a tone like you are superior. Remember we are all humans.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 29, 2009 6:07:16 GMT -5
"I thought Serboi were Iranians but ok, I learn smth new everyday."
May have been, but l highly doubt it, even still they started as an Aryan tribe ;D
"They did according to most historians."
Show me!.
"Its not sure Bolgars were Turkic."
Yes they were, why did your blood relatives the mongols believe in TENGRI-ISMS!.
"Not according to the historic data."
Then tell me about Miletich, peycinovich and Vladimir the grammarian for example, Ioan.
"U said it in a tone like you are superior. Remember we are all humans."
There is no tone Ioan, its written language your reading. I'm telling Thracian how it is and with the most modest language, not rough language.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Jul 29, 2009 6:13:51 GMT -5
"Novi is a former Bulgarian?"
Bulgarians claim that Torlakians are Serbianised Bulgars when in fact the shopi's of western Bulgaria are really Bulgarianised Serbs who celebrate Vidovden even today!.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 29, 2009 9:34:45 GMT -5
Guys, why dont we try to emphasize the similarities between Serbs and Bulgarians and promote friendship? I saw pics from the bulgarian rally, and in many details (even how they repair the roads) it reminded me 100% of Serbia! (one really annoying thing is the reaction of the greeks as long as they hear anything "eastern" "woman" - its like they just taken a viagra pill) The villagers repairing their cars at the side alley, the green landscapes, etc... the cevapce, rakija, i mean in Bulgaria it must be 90% like in Serbia!
I had always this good impression of Bulgaria without ever been there. Then i found out there is hostility between Serbs and Bulgarians and took part in it.
Anyways, its good to stop talking about our differences and starting to say hello to our neighbors.
Evey nation in the balkans has a little bit black history. Lets not build on top of our mistakes but on top of any viable trust potential we may have.
Serbia had Zastava and Smederevo and 100s of other firms we know. Bulgaria had "Balkan" motorbikes....
Now both Serbs/Bulgarians are left without economy/industry to the hands of the germanics... grrrrrrr
Russia should take better care of the remote slav nations in south-east.
PS Today evening, i am off to ex-YU so i am in a slav-unity mode!
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jul 29, 2009 9:45:57 GMT -5
As far as I know Serbs have never particularly had any problems with Bulgarians. I've never heard a Serb say a bad word about Bulgaria or Bulgarians. If anything we just lump them in as Orthodox brothers. Until I heard Ioan on this forum I would have thought everything was fine over the other side of the fence as well.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Jul 29, 2009 9:49:43 GMT -5
Respect and communication is all that is needed. I had a perfect dialog with Atan over the Bulgarian forum, and we talked like humans for the first time.
Maybe the foreign powers want us to be isolated and micro-nationalistic and spending our energy negatively.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jul 29, 2009 11:44:13 GMT -5
Uou Pyrro I must admit I am very pleased by your attitude.
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Atan
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Post by Atan on Jul 29, 2009 13:43:32 GMT -5
What Pyrros is saying is good. However the past can't easily be forgotten. Maybe some day after many generations...who knows - a Bulgarian may call a Serb friend. We'll see.
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Post by rusebg on Jul 29, 2009 17:21:36 GMT -5
I disagree on this one because I have Serb friends. Of course, they don't claim the three biggest Bulgarian cities as Serbian in the way Novi does. Not to mention numerous towns and villages.
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Post by Caslav Klonimirovic on Jul 29, 2009 19:45:04 GMT -5
Novi, be honest. Do you look more Bulgarian or Serbian?
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