ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2009 6:50:05 GMT -5
arsenije do not pay attention.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 28, 2009 7:48:12 GMT -5
I said: What else to say? I personally am finished with this... You said: arsenije do not pay attention. so, 1st, i wanna stop the trivialities with arsenije, and said so. Why do idiots like you prevent this from happening? 2nd, falling on your knees and begging like a cheap sl ut other members not to *pay attention* is the most gay stance, one could have... Ioan, stop humiliating your-self. I, (in contrast to you) don't kiss asses in here in order to be liked... I had personal debates with many Serbs in here (Srbobran, Arsenije, and some other semi-serbs: username, etc...)... I dont give a damn about politics or who likes me or not... You on the contrary..... *cough* *cough*
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Nov 28, 2009 7:56:00 GMT -5
you are evil, disgusting creature who finds pleasure in twisting the truth and being mean to people who oppose your freakish ideas about serbia. you are total coocoo.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 28, 2009 9:57:03 GMT -5
you are evil, disgusting creature who finds pleasure in twisting the truth and being mean to people who oppose your freakish ideas about serbia. you are total coocoo. if you could remember as back as two days before, i got you totally proven as a truth distorter. You said Slavs in Greece got assimilated and absorbed by the locals who were hiding in the mountains, and later said that those locals were gradually slavicized. You completely failed to address any of my direct accusations against your own intellect/credibility, and i proved that you are a weak mind, copying and pasting whatever you read left and right without the slightest effort to process those information by your own little brain. Then you come back with the classic abstract BS against me... which i find very boring and not challenging in the first place. You gotta try very hard from now on.
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Post by L0gjICK on Nov 28, 2009 13:34:38 GMT -5
Similarly, if you say "Im proud to be Serb or Albanian" or "I love everyone"... then you are most likely American. Sorta like those that praise a Turkish and Albanian brotherhood.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 28, 2009 14:39:46 GMT -5
Historic connection? Check Similar culture? Check Same enemies? Check Religion? Check
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Post by L0gjICK on Nov 28, 2009 15:04:58 GMT -5
500 years of Ottoman rule will do that to you. The Balkans in itself share a similar culture and historic connection. Besides those same criteria can be used for Bosnians, yet, most ALbanians don't see them as brothers either. Turks are political allies. Ethnically and culturally Albanians Turks differ. Only internet hoodlums and Albanians that tend to be religiously Muslim see Turks as anything more then political allies. Come to Macedonia and see how well Turks and Albanians get along. Both sides rarely acknowledges the other's presence let alone call each other "brothers." . PS: Does Turkey support the use of the Albanian language in public schools in Turkey?
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 28, 2009 15:27:48 GMT -5
I have a friend from Shkup and he tells me that Albs who open businesses generally only hire Albs. Only other group they hire are Turks (or self-declared Turks).
I think Bosnians are definitely close. Here in the city there is a very nice Bosnian restaurant in the city. 90% of the time the place is full of Albs.
Ethnically... yes. Like Greeks and Serbs differ ethnically. Culturally? I would say no. Even in terms of how they dress and present themselves its amazing how similar they are to us. The way they gesture, sigh, laugh, posture... all exactly like us... its amazing.
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Post by rusebg on Nov 29, 2009 7:18:02 GMT -5
Yep, but is it only Turks or all other Balkan nations as a whole?
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 29, 2009 8:47:09 GMT -5
True. Turks have this tradition of kissing the hands of others who are older I believe ... never seen this among us. Just one example ... another being marriage, with Turks allowed to wed their own cousins. I recently heard that one Turkish friend of mine from high school had married her own cousin ... and in turn, her own parents too she admitted were related.
Gestures, mannerisms, posture etc, all that I would describe as pan-Balkanian rather than smth specifically shared between our two nations. Religion is the only factor which gives us perhaps a little more in common with the Turks than the others ... but this doesn't include our Christian bretheren.
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Post by jonleka on Nov 29, 2009 14:11:27 GMT -5
Toskali personally i would get along easier with any other balkanian than a turk but thats just me. I think the only Albanians that get along with turks are few prishtinalis and prizrenalis. Yeah Donnie when i heard they marry their first cousins i got disgusted, most Arabs do that to fucking sickening.
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Post by Novi Pazar on Nov 29, 2009 20:01:04 GMT -5
"Well I'm not into conspiracy theories so I doubt that Bulgarians have any general intentions to grab land."
Geez Arsenije, l'm somewhat disapointed with your comments, but its your opinion at the end of the day. If you look through our histories, you will see that the Bulgars had intentions to either quell the serbs or to steal from the serbs. If they had the chance or opportunity again, what would stop them this time from doing so, brotherly love?
"And the Eastern Serbs, the Torlaks certainly do have a lot in common with Bulgarians. Of all Serbs anywhere they are the most different in comparisson to the rest. I am not being condescending to them in any way I can guarantee you."
No, they only are common with western 'Torlak' Bulgarians. Their traditions are not Bulgarian. The major problem you have by not accepting these people is the language, its a major hurdle for you to overcome, hence why you stubbornly overlook them, and when you do a search on them your mind is always set on Bulgars first and foremost.
"There's nothing wrong with who they are. They are similar people to Bulgarians so I really don't see the need for animosity. True I haven't been to Torlak regions but I do know a handful of Serbs from there. My best mate is a Torlak. I always thought they are very similar to FYROMians & this is the way Serbs talk about them amongst our selves."
No they don't, fVk sakes Arsenije.
"One of them I know has a family tree in a frame on his wall. It's traced back quite a few generations to a Bulgarian name. He openly says that he has Bulgarian background, but he's very proud of being a Serb."
Arsenije, don't you know about the Bulgar occupation of southern serbia and the forceful changing of names, fVk sakes again!.
"There's nothing contradictory about it. Also I recently met a Torlak & I swear I said to her I thought she looked Bulgarian. I was joking around with her a bit that she's Bulgarian. At first she was pretending to be pissed off & then after a while I swear she told me her dad was Bulgarian! Torlaks are Torlaks. In a way they are their own people. Through history they have come to be within and identify with each of Bulgaria or Serbia."
Aaaah oh well, whenever a person looks Dinarid, its a pure Serb, whenever someone doesn't, they are not, fvk me, so me and my brothers are not serbs, fvk, maybe l'm albanian afterall, most serbs from bosnia and other parts of serbia call my family siptar.
I can't answer the rest Arsenije, thanks mate.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 29, 2009 22:11:12 GMT -5
Dijedon, marrying of cousins occurred among Malsor tribes as well. This is very much illustrated by Edith Durham. Continuous inter-tribal admixtures often led to men marrying their cousins. They excused it in various ways.
Cousin marriage is a rather Med thing I believe. Sicilians used to do it as well.
Dark skin is a historical stigma of Albanians and other Balkanians. I know a Turkish girl from tetova who expresses a certain dislike for other dark-skinned co-ethnics. Racism against "Anadolaks" was very common among Albanians and other Muslim Balkanians. Their dark skin made them seem more effeminate, passive and weak (samething was attached to Gypsies). Racism was also expressed against Araps.
I have a cousin who has typical Med skin (the "olive" look) and all of his life he has had to endure taunts and insults even by his own mother. When I would stand next to him she would point me out and say "look how white he is, why cant you be like him."
Truth be told.... I dont care much about other Balkan nations. I have met maybe 2 Bulgarians over the course of my life. I dont even speak to the Macedonians in my school and have never felt 100% comfortable around the few Montenegrin Serbs I have met. The Kosovo events always made me feel a sense of hostility towards them when I thought about what their possible opinions were regarding the whole thing.
The Balkanians Ive most hung out (besides my own people) with were Turks, Croatians and Greeks. Croatians I have rarely noticed the similar gesturing I have seen from Turks and while I have seen very very close similarities with Greeks, I have always felt alien to them and their culture...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 29, 2009 23:04:55 GMT -5
In Malesi it was practiced to a limited extent due to the fact that it was inevitable. You had a scarcely inhabited highland and a limited number of neighbour clans of "foreign" blood to exchange brides with. Over time, such exchanges had gone on for such a time that the two clans became related ... this wasn't acknowledged because blood line was patrlinear, and despite being related to an extent on their mothers' side, the Malesors continued considering the other clans of "foreign" blood. Even so, in order to bring in "fresh" blood, it wasn't uncommon to travel some distance and kidnap prides from far away clans.
Outside of Malesi, this practice was and is nonexistant. In Kosova, for instance, you have a population that is overwhelmingly Muslim. Yet the Eastern practice of marrying close relatives doesn't exist. The abundance of brides made it possible to avoid inbreeding on your maternal side as well. Thus for instance in Drenica, it is practice to recall ancestry on both sides of the family in order to ensure that there is no common ancestry. Even in Malesi, as you said, they had to justify their position by denying kinship ... in other word, that practice was "forced" upon them due to circumstances, not preference. The opposite happens in Turkey. Don't you think that friend of mine could've chosen some other Turk out of a population of 70+ million people? Yet she had to wed a cousin ...
In the Middle East but also in other places like Eastern Africa, incestuous marriages were prefered as a mean to withhold wealth from outsiders. By marrying family, you would ensure that heredity was kept within the close circle. This is also why the Ptolemaic dynasty was notorious for brother/sister marriages, as a mean to ensure the throne within the family and their blood "purity" ... there is perhaps also some honour/shame dimension to it as well. One Somalese man I spoke to was as disgusted by our tradition of marrying outsiders as I was by their tradition of marrying cousins. He argued that it was shameful to allow female relatives being taken by foreigners; instead, they should remain within family.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 29, 2009 23:08:52 GMT -5
Bedouins are like that as well. They are notoriously conservative and like to keep the clans and tribes closely knit... which often meant intermarriage of family members. Accepting outsiders is/was a rarety among them.
Ancient Egyptians also considered it an insult to give brides. Thus they only took brides from other ethnicities but never gave. Babylonians and Assyrian kings complained that Egyptian kings never sent a single one of their daughters out.
If I remember correctly, didnt one member here tell us that it was common practice for Albs to take brides from Torbeshis but never to give?
In the end, I think secular Turks and Albanians have very very similar feelings regarding religion. While Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians, being nations greatly intertwined with their faith, tend to be much more "pro-Orthodox". Even though most Greeks I know are secular and many were acknowledged Agnostics... they still attended church every easter and still wore crosses...
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donnie
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Post by donnie on Nov 29, 2009 23:15:59 GMT -5
Exactly. One interesting note. My grandmother is now 85 or so years old. Very conservative woman, a patriot but also devoted Muslim who prays five times a day. When she heard of the Arab practice of marrying cousins, she was absolutely disgusted. For a time she refused to believe it, saying no real Muslim would do that ;D I think that reflects the general position of our people in relation to incestuous marriages. The only instances of incestuous marriages I've heard of in Kosova were among two or three aristocratic families ... whether this was due to them being culturally Turkicized or due to the "Ptolemaic" syndrome mentioned above which is present among many aristocratic families of Europe, I dont know.
Well that might also be a factor which has colored by perception of Turks, that I haven't known so many that come from middle or upper class secular families ... most Turks here in Sweden come from a rural background where perhaps the practice of marrying relatives is more pronounced. The girl I know is from Izmir I believe on her father's side and from northeastern Turkey on her mother's ... or vice versa ... most Turks are from Konya though.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 29, 2009 23:56:52 GMT -5
Almost all the ones I know here come from upper class Istanbul or Ankara families and are almost all deeply secular (in fact all the ones I am friends with are Atheists or Agnostic). On the eve of Ramazan we gathered by accident (because we were all on Thanksgiving break) in NY. We had about an hour laugh over stupid religious family members we have and pretty much used the time to bash religion (particularly Islam) here and there. The girl I am currently seeing in strongly Atheist.
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Post by todhrimencuri on Nov 30, 2009 0:03:48 GMT -5
Well the Ptolomaic Syndrome was due to the wish to keep the monarchy closely knit and tight therefore succession remained in the family and to keep land from being too divided and dispersed. That is one of the chief reasons for the existence of intermarriage among bloodkin.
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Kralj Vatra
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Post by Kralj Vatra on Nov 30, 2009 2:03:44 GMT -5
Novi Brate, don't get upset, Arsenije hasn't stepped foot in southern Serbia, that would explain it all. Bosnian Serbs turning from south-serb-haters into southern-serb-lovers is usual. (my wife is just such an example) The austrian propaganda has plagued those people for many generations. Deep inside they know very well what;s going on, and how much of them has roots in either kosovo, or even Greece (as the toponyms show). PS Hey Novi, you remember the last book you posted to me? The author referred to todays serbs as "SOUTHERN SERBS" to differentiate them from the Pols/Czechs/Sorbs/etc..
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Nov 30, 2009 5:40:03 GMT -5
Even though most Greeks I know are secular and many were acknowledged Agnostics... they still attended church every easter and still wore crosses... ...one thousand years empire... its in our blood...
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