aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 15, 2010 15:43:58 GMT -5
Treaty of Pereyaslav (1654) declared a unit between Russia and Ukraine.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 15, 2010 16:10:17 GMT -5
Of course. How could we have them before? Khanate of Kazan was captured in the 16th Century though Islam was not allowed until the reign of Catherina II (late 18th Century) What is the name of that city?
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 15, 2010 16:12:00 GMT -5
Treaty of Pereyaslav (1654) declared a unit between Russia and Ukraine. Protectorate in relation to the raids by the Crimean Khanate, which was powerful state back then.
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Post by thracian08 on Apr 15, 2010 16:28:35 GMT -5
Sure, I would love to quote some books, even Anti-Muslim writers like Bernard Lewis acknowledge the tolerance of the Ottomans compared to their European counterparts.
The only reason some Europeans write Anti-Ottoman things is b/c they viewed it as Christianity versus Islam. They were conquered by them, and that is why still till this day, they are brainwashed to hate them.
It has nothing to do with Turkey or present day politics - Ottomans were an empire from before, and there would be no reason to make them look good nowadays - no advantage.
Unfortunately, Europeans are very racist and brainwashed to hate my people and religion.
We all know how the Greeks helped in overthrowing the Byzantines b/c the Ottomans treated them better!
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 15, 2010 17:51:22 GMT -5
Saint-Petersburg (former Leningrad). I guess SPb isn't the only Russian city where they exist.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 16, 2010 0:40:11 GMT -5
Saint-Petersburg (former Leningrad). I guess SPb isn't the only Russian city where they exist. You live in the most beautiful Russian city. In a way, I am sure general tolerance in Petersburg is far above the level of tolerance existing in Russia.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 16, 2010 4:47:30 GMT -5
Thank you, Vizier of Oz
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 16, 2010 4:49:51 GMT -5
So what? What is your point and how is it connected to the Ukraine's volunterely unit with Russia?
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 16, 2010 5:35:53 GMT -5
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 16, 2010 7:24:06 GMT -5
So what? What is your point and how is it connected to the Ukraine's volunterely unit with Russia? When Crimean Tatars was powerful, they used to harrass the Coassacks. That is why, Cossacks sought Russia's protection. However, when Tatars and Ukranians established friendly relations, the Russian Empire did not like it. That is why, the Ukranian state was destroyed by Russia in 1770s together with the Crimean Khanate.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 17, 2010 6:38:31 GMT -5
Ukrainian state and Zaporizhian Sich were two different things regardless of what some writers wrote.
Actually there was no Ukrainian state, Russia and Ukraine formed one state since Pereyaslavskaya Rada.
I see this is the main poin of your posts to prove that Russians and Ukrainians always were bitter enemies. You don't like the concept of our similarity.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 19, 2010 1:41:17 GMT -5
Ukrainian state and Zaporizhian Sich were two different things regardless of what some writers wrote. Actually there was no Ukrainian state, Russia and Ukraine formed one state since Pereyaslavskaya Rada. I see this is the main poin of your posts to prove that Russians and Ukrainians always were bitter enemies. You don't like the concept of our similarity. Sure, there was not Ukraine. However, as you might also admit there was Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth that the Ukranians were part of until the Russian rule. Overall, I point out the histrocial nature of conflicts existing between Russia and (the land what we call as) Ukraine. Culturally speaking, Ukrainans are similar to the Polish rather than the Russians, just like Crimean Tatars are alike the Turks of Turkey.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 19, 2010 3:11:11 GMT -5
Why do you think you know much about it? Who told you such things?
Ukrainians (overwhelming majority) and Russians are both Orthodox and Eastern Slavs while Poles are Western Slavs and traditionally catholics. Ukrainians were loyal citizens of both Russian Empire and the USSR. Ex: peasants from my father's native village worried about their future when the last Russian czar Nicolas the Second resigned, they were not glad about it. Also Ukrainians consisted disproportinally large part of Soviet high rank military.
Of course it was, but Ukrainians felt second-sort people there and sided with Russia.
Right now I would say Ukraine hopes and tries to become close to Europe (with its much more comfort style of life) through Poland that's why some attempts are made to rewrite history
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 19, 2010 3:37:40 GMT -5
Why do you think you know much about it? Who told you such things? I know cause I met many Ukranians and Russians. Thus, I like reading. Azeris follow Shia sect of Islam whilst Turks are mainly Sunni Muslims. However, that is not a big deal between relatively close cultural affiliations. Today, Poland and Ukranie have great relations whilst both of them have significant problems with Russia. Coincidence? I doubt. Ukraine claims that Russia exterminated millions of Ukranians in 1930s. If they are/were so royal, why do they claim a genocide? That was rather a safeguard to avoid the fate of the Crimean Tatars. I think both countries are getting close due to their historical ties, For sure, Europe helps them to build better realtions.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 19, 2010 3:40:59 GMT -5
...and now you know me, who is both
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 19, 2010 3:49:24 GMT -5
A lot of people were exterminated or died due to Stalin's (who was Georgian BTW) criminal politics. Among them there were many Ukranians, Russians, Kazahs who died from feminine in 1930s. But Ukrainians always blamed it on Stalin (I know it from my relatives) and local "activists", not Russia. To see those events as Russia verce Ukraine thing is a new "invention". For me Stalin always represents eastern (excuse me) criminal despotism.
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 19, 2010 3:52:27 GMT -5
I would say both countries are getting close inspite of their historical conflicts.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 19, 2010 6:10:14 GMT -5
A lot of people were exterminated or died due to Stalin's (who was Georgian BTW) criminal politics. Among them there were many Ukranians, Russians, Kazahs who died from feminine in 1930s. But Ukrainians always blamed it on Stalin (I know it from my relatives) and local "activists", not Russia. To see those events as Russia verce Ukraine thing is a new "invention". As far as I read, ethnic Russians did not suffer from famines of 1930s, mainly Ukranians, Tatars, Bashkirs, Kazakhs did. In late 2006, Ukraine's parliament recognized the Stalin-era famine known as Holodomor as an act of genocide by the Soviet authorities.
Russia says the famine cannot be considered an act that targeted Ukrainians, as millions of people from different ethnic groups also lost their lives in vast territories across the Soviet Union.
Kiev has been seeking international recognition of the famine as an act of genocide. Last year, the United Nations General Assembly refused to include a discussion of the famine on its official session agenda.
A number of Ukrainian nationalist parties say that Russia, as the legal successor of the Soviet Union, should bear responsibility for the famine.en.rian.ru/society/20091128/157016050.htmlDid Czars of Russia represent something else to you?
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aayy
Amicus
Posts: 469
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Post by aayy on Apr 19, 2010 7:42:49 GMT -5
Just nobody cares about Russians, as usuall.
Yes they did. I like Soviet time more than czarist, but I prefer czars to eastern despot Stalin. Though I am not of high opinion about czarist abilities to rule, especially it relates to Nicolas the Second.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Apr 19, 2010 9:14:53 GMT -5
Just nobody cares about Russians, as usual. I do. Stalin was the worst of all. In my opinion, the Russian czars were also the Eastern despots, but those were perhaps not as cruel as Stalin.
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