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Post by thracian08 on Jul 13, 2010 13:27:45 GMT -5
you are soo wrong on that part. Germans are a racist society, the new generation is better, but still they are, it's in their genes.
My point is that all the uneducated Turks went to Germany to seek a better life, it's not representative of Turkey Turks. Even Germans who visit Turkey are shocked, b/c they only think of the gasterbaiters Turks as representative of Turkey, which they are not.
If you treat people unfairly, they will begin to live in their neighborhoods only, and will not want to assimilate to the other culture.
I know numerous Turks - 3rd generation in Germany, and a lot of them are getting educated, growing businesses and also a lot of them are returning back to Turkey b/c there are more opportunities for them.
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 13, 2010 13:35:41 GMT -5
You shouldn't be comparing Germany Turks with Turks of Turkey. That's my point.
I challenge you to go to Turkey and see Turks for yourself.
And yes, there were Greeks who worked in the Ottoman gov't, I never said they didn't work there. We cannot know if they were all educated or not though. Greeks were also farmers and some were businesspeople.
Even when Hellenism arose, the Greek Patriarche didn't want to comly b/c he thought he would lose power under Greece, he actually wanted to stay with the Ottomans.
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 13, 2010 13:41:03 GMT -5
Oh, and on the subject of education during the Ottomans, the devsirme got the best education. They went to the best Universities, were placed accordingly to their abilities.
This was a very different thing during this time b/c Europeans only the rich people got the best education, and people were not given opportunities according to their abilities.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 13, 2010 14:58:57 GMT -5
Im living here since the day of my birth and you want to tell us how Germans are? You have no clue what you are talking about...you are dazzled by english-american propaganda about Germans. Besides if you blame others for being racist why are you racist yourself? You say they have it in their genes...thats the primal racist predication per se.
Thats why I say you are not very bright...you are even not noticing your stupidity. Others say such things because they want to provoke...you say them because you do believe they are faultlessly and objectively correct.
What are you talking there, the Turks are living here since the 70s...and even before. We have here second generation Turks who have never been living in Turkey...Im talking about them...not the generation of our parents. Im talking about the Turks who were born and raised here...and what they are doing of their life in this country. If you are born here it is not directly important if your origins are from a village or not.
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Patrinos
Amicus
Peloponnesos uber alles
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Post by Patrinos on Jul 13, 2010 15:17:58 GMT -5
Germany isn't representative of Turks for your information. The villagers from Turkey went there to seek a better life. And to add to that they faced racism and discrimnation from Germans. The 3rd generation is much more educated than the first of course. usual response by turks. The Turks that the rest of world knows and shape their opinions or either villagers of Kurds(especially when talking about faces)... Yea, good question, what does Greece produce? Seriously? By the way, since when do 90% of Turks live in 3rd world conditions? Thats a very ignorant statement. Have you even visited 1% of Turkey to make a generalization like that? I have this in mind: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Indexa very usefull index that gives pretty accurate conclusions. Turkey is between Colombia, Mauritius and Kazakstan(the cousins...)....
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 13, 2010 18:05:36 GMT -5
You still don't get it do you? Taking a small segment of non-educated Turkish villagers who moved to Germany to have a better life do not represent the population of Turkey IN Turkey. Comprendo? Or you having a brain freeze understanding this? Yes, it does. If you don't give opportunities to people, they remain in the same class in society - the working class. And after you face discrimination, it's so hard to move up. Look at blacks in America, even though they have the same rights legally as whites, they still are discriminated against, a lot of them live in their own ghettos, etc. Actually, I have a German American friend who visited Germany, and she said she was embarassed to see Germans stare at Turks there for no reason. Germans are openly racist people. Deny it all you want Even to live in Germany you have to act like a German to be like a German, or else you're not accepted in society there. I have an Afgan friend who grew up in Germany, and said that's the reason why her family left. She went to a good high school where she, and Iranian, and a Turk were the only minority students. My friend got the highest grade on her exam in class, and instead of the teacher praising her, instead she said, I cannot believe it, a non-German person got the highest grade! Only the USA is the only country who is not like that. No one judges you like that based on where you're from, and they are much more open minded. And that's partly why people intregrate much better here than Europe. And Patrino, placing that HDI Index isn't very accurate. Why? Romania is a couple of numbers ahead of Turkey, but they cannot even have medicine to treat patients, ( I have a Romanian friend, and it's super backwards country), unlike Turkey. Cuba is way ahead of Turkey ? give me a break! So you posting that isn't very accurate.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 13, 2010 18:14:25 GMT -5
I am not going to have a pis.sing contest about who is better educated Greeks or Turks. In fact I think that is quite an ignorant way of contrasting societies. Technology wise Turkey is a lot more advanced than Greece in terms of manufacturing and production. Whereas Greece is more advanced in the marine sector, both have competent tourism industries and so forth. This isn't about who is better than who.
Terminology wise the word Turk is generally associated with more positive business deals.
In the UK Turk is not used as a derogatory term. It is generally used in the business world, as innovate and brave. Outside of that it is associated with Turkish people and kebabs.
As for the villagers in Germany, well if they had good living conditions in Turkey they wouldn't have gone in the first place, we also have them in the UK, everyone must respect each other, sometimes villagers have more wisdom, and compassion than the city dwellers (such as my family). I also think it is not very intelligent to judge Turks if the people judging are not in a better position,
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 14, 2010 0:48:01 GMT -5
Turks are not liked or appreciated by the Europeans and Westerners? Well I could live with that. By the way, I will be in Bozcaada soon for a holiday. Very nice place to be, of course if you like swiming in crystal water, and if you appreciate nice food whilst indulging your holiday experience with excellent selection of local wines .
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Post by Anittas on Jul 14, 2010 4:51:03 GMT -5
There are countries that have produced intellectual Turks who went on to become highly respected researchers-- for instance, a couple of years back, I read about a Turkish researcher who made a significant discovery in the field of medicine.
That Kastor doesn't know of any Turkish professors in Germany doesn't mean they don't exist. I can't name a single Greek professor in Greece... but I'm sure there are some.
Germany and much of Western Europe failed in their integration policy. This is no secret and they openly admit it. Even Obama made a remark about that. If Germany failed to integrate 5 million Turks, then the blame lies mostly on them. Turks are humble and hard working people no matter where they go.
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 14, 2010 5:10:22 GMT -5
I bet Kastor has never heard of Mehmet Oz.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 14, 2010 7:21:45 GMT -5
I didnt say there arent any turkish professors in Germany...but I wouldnt wonder if there arent any...I know many professors but of course only the ones of the juridical faculty. I dont know one turkish professor...which means..that even if there is one...he isnt a known professor and thus no luminary like Spiros Simitis.
Its not true that the integration policy did fail...the turks are saying that because they like to blame others for their misery...but there are also turks (not many but still) who have successfully studied in Germany for example...why did it work with them? There are no excuses...everyone is responsible for his own fate in this country. End of discussion.
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Post by Anittas on Jul 14, 2010 10:00:12 GMT -5
Its not true that the integration policy did fail...the turks are saying that because they like to blame others for their misery...but there are also turks (not many but still) who have successfully studied in Germany for example...why did it work with them? There are no excuses...everyone is responsible for his own fate in this country. End of discussion. The Turks are not the only ones saying that--most of Europe is saying that. The right and the left agree that he integration policy failed: from Sweden to the Netherlands, to France and Germany.
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Post by Kastorianos on Jul 14, 2010 10:29:35 GMT -5
You are clueless, thats not true. Its disputed...and no one is saying it failed...except for the greens...pay attention to your word choice...
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Post by thracian08 on Jul 14, 2010 17:17:55 GMT -5
I love Mehmet Oz ! He's extremly popular in the USA !
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Post by Anittas on Jul 14, 2010 17:45:09 GMT -5
You are clueless, thats not true. Its disputed...and no one is saying it failed...except for the greens...pay attention to your word choice... I am not clueless. In Sweden, Sverige Demokraterna, Socialdemokraterna and Moderaterna have said it. And many others as well. In the Netherlands, the far-right have said it as well. In France, the media has pointed out that there is an identity problem that relates to the integration. So my word of choice reflects the things I have heard from the parties and the media. It's nothing I made up. Now, that's not to say that all is hopeless. I'm sure there are people who come up with good ideas on how to fix the problems.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 15, 2010 2:01:13 GMT -5
I bet Kastor has never heard of Mehmet Oz. Oz is a cool guy.
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Post by Vizier of Oz on Jul 15, 2010 2:12:31 GMT -5
Germany and much of Western Europe failed in their integration policy. This is no secret and they openly admit it. Even Obama made a remark about that. If Germany failed to integrate 5 million Turks, then the blame lies mostly on them. Turks are humble and hard working people no matter where they go. The old continent has been a target of mass migration for decades and very little was done about the problems arisen. At present, migration from West to Turkey seems to be reversed. Personally, I meet so many people returning to Turkey for good. Although I havent officially met her, look at Desire, she is back!. In an article published by Spiegel, I read that some 40.000 Turks emigrated back to Turkey whilst only 10.000 migrated to Germany in 2009. www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,703805,00.html
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Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning
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Post by Dèsîŗĕ Yèarning on Jul 15, 2010 11:30:27 GMT -5
Well once you have a Brit/US/ or other European Education, and have lived in a more civilized country than Turkey (im sorry) It is really hard to adjust at first. Once you adjust,,, yea baby its really great to be here, no stress, relaxed, fun, holidays, travelling, not like the boring system they had in the UK, work, tube home, home, tube work. I still have my moments, where Im like OMG im gona move back, but the next morning when I look out at the view from my balcony,,, amanin.... no way. The sun, the weather, the raki,
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