|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 2, 2009 0:16:11 GMT -5
[ Tukic names and Muslim names not necessarily same thing. For example typical Muslim names for Shiites like Ali or Sunni like Omar/Umar, these are names of people who had some significant affiliation with the Prophet and hence are typically Muslim names. On the otherhand just because Turks became Mulims doesnt mean Turkic names were always Muslim. Sultan means King, othewise its not religious name by origin. Yes I dont doubt there was Turkic names amongst Hungarians after all Hungarians lived closely beside some Turkic peoples for long time and assimilated some Turkic tribes, in a book I am reading at present its written Hungarians lived close beside Bulgar Turkics for at least 200 years, it also writes this is the reason for the name Hungarian which is derived from Onogur, the Hungarians themselves called themselves Magyars but the Bulgars were called by outsiders as Onogurs and Slavs and others started to call the Magyars Onogurs which via Slav translated eventually to Hungarians. Magyars themselves later called Bulgars = Nandor. Due to the fact there is no evidence that Magyars were Muslim by any significant numbers its not interesting its just logical. I wont go into it now but its possible to read about Hungarian religion before Christianity on the net or in historical books and you will find that there was a religion but it wasnt Islam. As I have said some Turkic type names does not equal Muslim for example Khazars were Turkics but they were Zsid'sz and possibly many of these Turkic Khazar Zsido eventually went on to what became part of the Ashkenazi. Yes East Euro/German Jews with an original Turkic origin [/quote] thats in Hungarian a modern word if it is a word in Hungrian but go and search for how the historical Hungarian high priest were called.
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 2, 2009 3:27:07 GMT -5
that's what i have meant, because Zoltan is not a Magyar-Turkic name but a typical arab muslim name. Zoltan is the hungarian way to say from Sultan which is arabic language for Islamic title. but still it's an islamic title rather than a name, so i wonder why hungarians at that time were using an islamic title instead of using Khan or whatever central asian title for a leader. Nandor? Then Serbia's capital isnt orginally serbian but bulgarian then. Nandorfehervar means.."Bulgar's white city". interesting. But Islam existed in that time among Turkic peoples, there are over hundreds or even maybe thousands of written cronicals written by islamic scholars at the time. History written by islamic scholars were worth to read rather than reading this mystical-fairytale Gesta Hungarorum. lol Majority of Khazars yes were Jews, but some part of them werent. There were muslim Khazars also, that what became Kabars.
|
|
|
Post by chalkedon on Jun 3, 2009 6:59:02 GMT -5
A little off topic...but can you guys post some pics of hungarian hussars ? That would be pretty cool...
|
|
|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 3, 2009 7:30:10 GMT -5
well its possible its taken from Magyars connection with Turkic people as I said that in itself is not proof Hungarians had any Muslim or significant Muslim majority this is what we were discussing. There are also other meaning connections to the name Zoltan. Zlatan is a male given name of South-Slavic origin meaning Golden. It is common amongst all South Slavic countries in the Balkans, namely Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Macedonia and Serbia. The name is found in particularly high frequencies in Bosnia because it is considered ethnically "neutral" amongst the three dominant Bosnian ethnicities: Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. The name is derived from the South-Slavic word zlato - from the Old-Slavic root *zolto (gold). The ancient form of the name is Zoltan, which is still preserved in some non-Slavic countries like Hungary.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zlatanwww.meaning-of-names.com/hungarian-names/zoltan.aspwww.baby-names-and-stuff.com/hungarian-baby-names/z-meanings-1.aspit was a Hungarian name not a Hungarian title name, how many Hungarian rulers are named Zoltan are they any more than Hungarian rulers of other names ? But probably a more important question for you, if Magyars were actually Muslims as you wanna imply then why dont we see names like Mohaamed, Omar, Ali, etc. ? Yes Belgrade was under Bulgarian control before it was Serbian. The Hungarians called these people by their own names, and in accordance with their current political status: Orosz (Russian), Lengyel (Pole), Cseh (Czech), Marót (Moravian), Nándor or Lándor (Onogundur Turkic names for Bulgaro-Slavs), and Horvát (Croat). The case of the two villages called Nándor is even more instructive. In Old Hungarian, the word ' Nándor' signified 'Bulgar', but it fell into disuse, probably soon after 1000 AD), when the Bulgar realm fell under Byzantine rule. The word survived only in place-names. mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/62.htmlThen why doesnt Arab chronicles identify Magyars as Muslims, why doesnt any chronicle identify them as Muslims ? actually the story goes that the Khazars rejected Christianity and Islam in preference for Judaism. In any case the Conquest Hungarians are known to have theitr own religion with their own Priests called Taltos. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A1ltosReligion One of the theory of the ancient Hungarian religion is that it was a form of Tengriism, a shamanistic religion common among the early Turkic, Uralic and Mongol people, that was influenced by Zoroastrianism from the Persians whom the Magyars had encountered during their westward migration.The main character of the religion were the táltos. Their souls were thought to be able to travel between the three spheres (révülés). Táltos' were doctors too, and they served well. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_mythology
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 3, 2009 10:40:57 GMT -5
There is proof for it since Volga Bulgars and many other Turkic tribes were mostly muslim but some of them were still pagan followers according to Ahmad Ibn Fadlan. Those tribes that Ibn Fadlan mentioned were part of the foundation of magyar confederacy under Arpad, that the written chronicle he wrote was has been discovered for now but still there's more that havent been discovered cause of the Islamic civilisation that had been ransacked in Baghdad by the Mongols. Modern Islamic scholars today are doing their best reviving the ransacked Islamic written documentation by doing further researches. If Magyars werent in contact with those Turkic muslim tribes, the federation of Magyar tribes wouldnt exist, that's is the most common sense, dont just recon that Uralic or Ugric people formed the union by themselves cause their numbers were far too small comparing to the majority Turkic tribes. Those Ugric or Uralic or whatever linguistic term we name for it were such a small minority that they were the one that assmiliated into Turkic speaking ethnic-group. Many of them did, Volga Bulgar is one of fine example the Ugric assimilated to and if you believe in this Finno-Ugric theory, alot of Finnic people did actually became Turkic muslims. I dont reject the Finno-Ugric theory however i do oppose many of their written record since it's comtaminated by a German researcher when he invented this Finno-Ugric linguistic. ok you gave one kind of evidence for this, however i read some where around the hungarian site, that Zoltan originated from the Turkic language for Sultan but if we do further reasearch on this then we would know for sure that Sultan was not the proper name for king title in Turkic language but Arabic which derived from the word Sultah. Now you know that Zoltan's other name is Zolta, that means both of those words have the same way to say it but pronounced differently Zoltan with Sultan and Zolta with Sultah. This clearly shows that both of those words are very posivitely identical to each other. And if the Hungarian legend say that Zoltan means life, well you know at that time king were so important for the tribes that they regard the kings as life. Without the king, the tribe would have no leaders and therefore it's considered no life for them. Maybe they did, who knows. We need to do research on Islamic geography and Islamic encyclopaedias written by muslim scholars since Islamic civilisation was the most progressive civilisation at that time, many islamic written documents were valid and it is still valid even today since modern western scientist still cant reasearch and study the islamic document well cause it's too complix for them. Magyars are exactly the same as Turkish when naming their kids, both of them have always preffered to name their kids in turanic rather than arabic. Most Turkic muslims werent arabized as you may think, however they were still muslims with turanic names. Oh yeah, they did but they forget that there were Khazar muslim minorities that didnt preffered to be jewish, that's why Khazar muslims rebelled and suffered enough when being expelled from Khazaria which causes them to assimilate with the rest of the Turkic muslims tribes that later lead to become part of the Magyar unity under Arpad hurrah!!!. Yeah that's one group of Magyars, what about the rest? Since Magyar pagan religion werent so superior compare with the majority Turkic speaking muslim groups. Turkic muslims was another group of Magyars, plus yes also there were even small numbers of Turkic jews who was another group of Magyars. So overally Magyars already had their semetic religion with them (Islam and Judaism combined) before they arrived in the Carpathian Basin. The Hungarian pagan religion is not part of the semetic religion. According to another muslim scholar, Yagut al-Hamawi postively mentioned that those muslims population were speaking the magyar language at that time, that is one of several evidence to prove that there was magyar muslims in magyar tribes, even before the arrival to Carpathian Basin. Yaqut al-Hamawi's work proves that the Muslims population spoke the Hungarian language by the beginning of the 13th century.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6sz%C3%B6rm%C3%A9ny#cite_note-Peoples_in_Hungary-0
|
|
yeni
Moderator
gulash freak
Posts: 327
|
Post by yeni on Jun 3, 2009 13:26:52 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6sz%C3%B6rm%C3%A9nythx for sharing this article wbb (btw mi a helyzet a cicamokuszokkal? ), its quite well written, includes most info what is known about islam in medieval Hungary. Böszörmény From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Böszörmény, also Izmaleita (Hysmaelita) or Szerecsen (Saracenus), is the denomination for the Muslims who lived in the Kingdom of Hungary in the 10-13th centuries. Some of the böszörménys probably joined the federation of the seven Magyar tribes during the 9th century, and later smaller groups of Muslims arrived to the Carphatian Basin. They were engaged in trading but some of them were employed as mercenaries by the kings of Hungary. Their rights were gradually restricted from the 11th century and they were persuaded to be baptized, following the establishment of the Christian Kingdom of Hungary. They disappeared (probably became Christian) by the end of the 13th century.
Contents [hide] 1 Their origins 2 Muslim territories in the Kingdom of Hungary 3 The Muslims' life in the kingdom 4 Muslims in the 13th century 5 See also 6 References 7 Sources 8 External links
[edit] Their origins Modern authors claim that several groups of Moslims arrived to the Carpathian Basin in the course of the 10th-12th centuries; therefore, the Moslims living in the Kingdom of Hungary were composed of different ethnic groups. Most of them must have arrived from Volga Bulgaria, but toponyms suggest that Muslim (káliz: khalyzians) people arrived also from Khwarezm; the latter (or part of them) may have formed one of the three tribes of the Kabars who joined the federation of the Magyar tribes in the 9th century.
The Arab historian and geographer, al-Mas'ūdī recorded in the 10th century that the heads of the tribal confederation had welcomed Muslim merchants and the merchants could even convert some of the Magyars into Islam.[1] Al-Bakrī also mentioned that the Magyars ransomed the Muslims who had been captured in the neighboring countries.[1] In the 10th century, Ibrahim ibn Yaqub described the Muslim merchants who arrived to Prague from the territories of the Magyars and traded with slaves and tin.[1] The Gesta Hungarorum recorded that lots of Muslims arrived to the Carpathian Basin from Volga Bulgaria during the reign of Taksony, Grand Prince of the Magyars (c. 955 - before 972) and they settled down there.[1]
The work of the Muslim traveler, Abu Hamid al-Garnati, who spent three years in the kingdom (1150-1153), proves that the Muslims living in the Kingdom of Hungary were composed of two groups: the Khwarezmians and the "Maghrebians" (who were probably Oghuz Turks).[1] He was entrusted by King Géza II of Hungary to recruit soldiers among the Maghrebians living east of the Carpathian Basin.[1] The Byzantine historian, John Kinnamos mentioned that káliz warriors were captured during the war between the kingdom and the Byzantine Empire in 1165 and the Emperor Manuel I Komnenos removed some of them to Byzantine territories.[1]
[edit] Muslim territories in the Kingdom of Hungary The Muslims settled down in several groups in the Carpathian Basin. Their largest communities lived in the southern parts of the Kingdom of Hungary in Syrmia and in region where the Drava joines the Danube. Other significant groups of Muslims lived in and around Pest, in the Nyírség (around Hajdúböszörmény) and around Nyitra (today Nitra in Slovakia).[1]
The Arab geographer, Yaqut al-Hamawi mentioned that Muslims from the Kingdom of Hungary were studying in Aleppo in the beginning of the 13th century. The students arrived to Aleppo from a frontier region of the kingdom where the Moslims lived in 30 settlements.[1]
[edit] The Muslims' life in the kingdom Most of the Muslims in the Kingdom of Hungary were engaged in trading and they were rich enough to lease royal revenues in the 13th century. Other Muslims were employed in the kings' army and took part in the wars against the Byzantine Empire. Yaqut al-Hamawi's work proves that the Muslims population spoke the Hungarian language by the beginning of the 13th century.[1]
Royal decrees issued in the second half of the 11th century demonstrates that the kings of Hungary started to persecute the Muslims to convert into Christianity. King Ladislaus I of Hungary prescribed that converted Muslims who continued to follow their former costums were to be removed from their original settlements. King Coloman of Hungary ordened that each Muslim settlements had to build a church and he prohibited the marriage between Muslims. Probably in the next century, the kings also prohibited the building of walls around Muslim settlements.
By the period of King Géza II (1141-1162), the káliz people could practise their faith only in secrecy. The "Maghrebian" soldiers followed oppenly the Islam, but it was Abu Hamid al-Garnati who taught them several Islamic traditions. Upon his request, the king even permitted to the "Magrhrebians" to have concubines.[1]
[edit] Muslims in the 13th century The Golden Bull of King Andrew II prohibited the employment of Muslims as minters and tax collectors.[2] The king, however, continued to employ them in his administration. On 3 March 1231, Pope Gregory IX requested the prelates of the kingdom to protest against this practise and also authorized them to use ecclesiastical penalties for this reason.[2] In the same year, King Andrew had to confirm the provisions of the Golden Bull but he still employed Muslims. Therefore, on 25 February 1232, Archbishop Robert of Esztergom placed the Kingdom of Hungary under an interdict and excommunicated some high dignitaries of the king.[2] Pope Gregory IX sent a legate to the kingdom who reached an agreement with King Andrew on 20 August 1233 in Bereg.[2]
Under the agreement, the Muslims and the Jews could not hold royal offices and they were obliged to wear distinctive cloths. However, the king did not fulfil all the provisions of the agreement and therefore he was excommunicated but he was absolved soon. On 10 December 1239, Pope Gregory IX even authorized King Béla IV of Hungary to lease his revenues to non-Christians.[2]
Nevertheless, following the Mongol invasion of the kingdom (1241-1242) references to the Muslims in the kingdom became scarce. In 1290, King Ladislaus IV of Hungary appointed a former Muslim, Mizse to the office of the Palatine.
The böszörmény denomination is preserved as a family name and in toponyms, such as Hajdúböszörmény.[3] this topic started with a youtube video about massacre in Szeklerland in 1944 and now ends here, lol
|
|
|
Post by szorostalpu1 on Jun 3, 2009 16:00:12 GMT -5
arab bacsi reminds me of a person I knew a few yrs. ago. All this person ever thought about were muslims and turks...... lol ne mondj hulyeseget!
|
|
|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 4, 2009 7:48:54 GMT -5
There is proof for it since Volga Bulgars and many other Turkic tribes were mostly muslim but some of them were still pagan followers according to Ahmad Ibn Fadlan. Those tribes that Ibn Fadlan mentioned were part of the foundation of magyar confederacy under Arpad, that the written chronicle he wrote was has been discovered for now but still there's more that havent been discovered cause of the Islamic civilisation that had been ransacked in Baghdad by the Mongols. Modern Islamic scholars today are doing their best reviving the ransacked Islamic written documentation by doing further researches. If Magyars werent in contact with those Turkic muslim tribes, the federation of Magyar tribes wouldnt exist, that's is the most common sense, dont just recon that Uralic or Ugric people formed the union by themselves cause their numbers were far too small comparing to the majority Turkic tribes. Those Ugric or Uralic or whatever linguistic term we name for it were such a small minority that they were the one that assmiliated into Turkic speaking ethnic-group. Many of them did, Volga Bulgar is one of fine example the Ugric assimilated to and if you believe in this Finno-Ugric theory, alot of Finnic people did actually became Turkic muslims. I dont reject the Finno-Ugric theory however i do oppose many of their written record since it's comtaminated by a German researcher when he invented this Finno-Ugric linguistic. ok you gave one kind of evidence for this, however i read some where around the hungarian site, that Zoltan originated from the Turkic language for Sultan but if we do further reasearch on this then we would know for sure that Sultan was not the proper name for king title in Turkic language but Arabic which derived from the word Sultah. Now you know that Zoltan's other name is Zolta, that means both of those words have the same way to say it but pronounced differently Zoltan with Sultan and Zolta with Sultah. This clearly shows that both of those words are very posivitely identical to each other. And if the Hungarian legend say that Zoltan means life, well you know at that time king were so important for the tribes that they regard the kings as life. Without the king, the tribe would have no leaders and therefore it's considered no life for them. Maybe they did, who knows. We need to do research on Islamic geography and Islamic encyclopaedias written by muslim scholars since Islamic civilisation was the most progressive civilisation at that time, many islamic written documents were valid and it is still valid even today since modern western scientist still cant reasearch and study the islamic document well cause it's too complix for them. Magyars are exactly the same as Turkish when naming their kids, both of them have always preffered to name their kids in turanic rather than arabic. Most Turkic muslims werent arabized as you may think, however they were still muslims with turanic names. Oh yeah, they did but they forget that there were Khazar muslim minorities that didnt preffered to be jewish, that's why Khazar muslims rebelled and suffered enough when being expelled from Khazaria which causes them to assimilate with the rest of the Turkic muslims tribes that later lead to become part of the Magyar unity under Arpad hurrah!!!. Yeah that's one group of Magyars, what about the rest? Since Magyar pagan religion werent so superior compare with the majority Turkic speaking muslim groups. Turkic muslims was another group of Magyars, plus yes also there were even small numbers of Turkic jews who was another group of Magyars. So overally Magyars already had their semetic religion with them (Islam and Judaism combined) before they arrived in the Carpathian Basin. The Hungarian pagan religion is not part of the semetic religion. According to another muslim scholar, Yagut al-Hamawi postively mentioned that those muslims population were speaking the magyar language at that time, that is one of several evidence to prove that there was magyar muslims in magyar tribes, even before the arrival to Carpathian Basin. Yaqut al-Hamawi's work proves that the Muslims population spoke the Hungarian language by the beginning of the 13th century.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6sz%C3%B6rm%C3%A9ny#cite_note-Peoples_in_Hungary-0WBB I have never said historical Hungary never had any Muslims, that topic has been discussed before and I am aware of the Muslim people that were in Hungary from early times. The point of what you and I were/are discussing is not that there was some Muslims in Hungary. You were basically stating Hungary was founded by Turkic Muslim people and had originally a Muslim majority and Hungarians were originally Turks. You have said this before and we had this type of converstaion a few times in the past lol. So what I said before and what I am saying now still is ... there is no proof of your proposal, there is no historical indication Hungary had Muslim majority or was founded by Muslim Turks or was ever a Muslim country or that ultimatly or predominantly Hungarians were of Turk origin. Did Hungary have some Muslims in the population in the conquest time , probably yes. But what do you suppose the Muslim percentage of the population was, what do you think it was ever at its maxium ? 5%, 20% , 50%, 75% ? well there is some type of riddle that needs to be worked out here. firstly somewhere between 10 and 15 million people speak Hungarian. secondly Hungarian is not considered to be a Turkic/Altaic language, its considered to have 300 odd Turkic words that are considered to be borrowed into the language. if the so called Uralics were a minority then how did they become the language giver to a more supposedly dominant supposedly more advanced Turkic proportion of the population. in the end its hard to believe the people speaking this language could have been such small minority. Secondly the people speaking this language were later found in 12th century outside Hungary in Baskiria region by Friar Julian. I dont doubt some of the the Hungarian elite may have been strongly influenced by Bulgars or intermarried with Bulgars and perhaps some even were Bulgars but its clear what the destiny was and its clear the majority of Hungarians spoke Magyar as is still the case so in the end how you can explain the Majority of Hungarians were Turkic but speaking non Turkic language. WBB Hungarians were most likely a very mixed people with elements from several different ethnicities that they picked up on their long and eventual journey to Carpathian, yes they did have a steppe warfare style tactics and political structure this could be labelled Scythian, Hunnic Turkic sonsidering they lived for a long time in geography of Steppe peoples that is not suprising, but still in the end as I have continuously said they were something completly unique , they dont have Turkic language and they have many things that differentiate them from other Turkic and Steppe tribes. Hungarians were at times in alliance with Bulgars and other times at war with Bulgars, they were at war with Petchenegs, finally they settled down in Carpathian Basin and continued there their ethnogenesis .
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 4, 2009 8:39:21 GMT -5
i been very busy lately, learning to drive a manual car and get my license, that's why i dont have time in erepublik or write about the cicamokusz and the eszkimo in my newspaper. who's that then? do i know in person but u are hiding in this forum? i knew that i had that kind of feeling that i know u, szorostalpu. actually u not really szorostalpu cause u dont have any szoros on ur talpu. actually muslims and magyars really, and it's true that magyars were muslims and that they were turks. But if u want to talk about the earliest magyars, they were Scythians. heh magyar is part of Turkic language, and that 300 odd Turkic words is not borrowed, that was the real language the magyars spoke before borrowing slavic, latin, german and yes i dont want to offend u but that fresh finno-ugric or uralic words was stolen and recently put into this hungarian language when the finno-ugric theory was borned by this dikhead german scientist. unfortunately the finno-ugric words are the one that contaminate the hungarian language along with many stupid anglo-saxon words. see above. It's not hard, it's very simple. The Uralic-Finnic people came to settle around the area of Volga Bulgaria and Bashkiria and they assimilated and became Turkic, none of those people maintained their Uralic-Finnic heritage neither they kept their language. Generation after generation they are Turkic. Yes before the Turkic assimilation they were Uralic-Finnic but since then at the time of Arpad arrival to Carpathian Basin, all those 7 tribes were Turks, arabs and Byzantium have even written it that Magyars were Turks. huuu bravo!!! Bashkiria!!!! Now Bashkiria is a Turkic tribe and speak Turkic language, so if Friar Julian found people that spoke the language like Magyars then that means that Magyars at that time spoke pure Turkic, since Bashkirs are the close relatives of Magyars. Yes Magyars are very mixed people, a good example of that of the Turkish people today. However it was the Turkic culture and language that have over come those mixed ethnicities and it is still superior today, since there is a huge percentage of Magyars that are very hostile to this Finno-Ugric historical theory, hungarian nationalist and neo-nazis hungarians are fine examples who oppose this and strongly accept the Turkic theory. Anyway Oszkar, connect urself to those Finno-Uric people if u feel connected to them, i feel strongly connected to Turkic people and i have nothing to do with those Uralic-Finnic peoples, im very proud of my Turkic relatives, we have built many empires and im proud of it. Im Hungarian and always will be, but im connected to Turkic people always so therefore i consider Magyars as Turks.
|
|
yeni
Moderator
gulash freak
Posts: 327
|
Post by yeni on Jun 4, 2009 9:04:42 GMT -5
Or the opposite, the Bashkirs back then could speak a different language. Don’t forget, we have Hungarian language manuscripts from that period, the Halotti beszéd, the Ó magyar Mária siralom (they are not Turkic texts) but i doubt there is info about the Bashkir language in that era. But neverless the Bashkir-Hungarian connection is very interesting, 1. they live in the territory of ’Magna Hungaria’, the site of the Magyar urheimat, 2. there are medieval sources which call Hungarians Bashkirs (like the already mentioned Abu Hamid Garnati, who travelled large territories in Eastern Europe and also lived a few years in Hungary, he called the Magyars ’Bashgird’), 3. there are some Bashkir tribe names similar or close to the Hungarian tribe names. Of course these can mean different things, both the Magyars and the Bashkirs assimilated Bulgars, or the Bashkirs assimilated Magyars who remained there, or both happened, who knows.
|
|
|
Post by szorostalpu1 on Jun 4, 2009 10:41:21 GMT -5
Te hogy tudod hogy nem szoros a talpom? reszeg vagy arab bacsika, miert iszik vodka es sor mindig reggeli elott?
|
|
|
Post by szorostalpu1 on Jun 4, 2009 18:15:15 GMT -5
arab bacsika....olvas The Hungarian Kingdom To be formally recognized as a Christian ... www.chicagohungarians.com/radics/Origin3a.htm The advancing Turkish armies occupied the Great Plains and most of Dunántúl (western Hungary). Transylvania had purchased peace from the Sultan, thereby enabling it to keep its internal "independence". A narrow strip of western Hungary, along with the northern Carpathians, remained under Hungarian, that is, Habsburg rule. The following 150 years were to be an era of valiant struggle to free the country from Turkish occupation and Habsburg domination. We can take the heroines of Eger or the defenders of Szigetvár as examples of this great effort. In 1552, the women of Eger fought alongside their men against overwhelming odds. Some fought with swords in their hands; others threw rocks or dumped boiling water on the invaders. Their efforts led to an incredible victory over the besieging Turks. Sadly, the heroes of Szigetvár weren't quite so lucky. In 1566, some 2,500 Hungarians and Croatians defended their city surrounded by some 90,000 Turks. In attack after attack, they repelled the Turkish charges, inflicting heavy casualties upon them. Some 25,000 Turks died at Szigetvár, but because of their large numbers, they persisted in their attack on the city. With the number of defenders dwindling to about three hundred, their supplies having been used up; further resistance looked hopeless. The wives and daughters of the officers decided that they would rather die than fall into Turkish hands as well as dragged into slavery. They were killed by their husbands and fathers before the final counterattack. Count Miklós Zrinyi gathered his loyal troops and led the last brave and furious charge; all but three of them died heroes' deaths.
|
|
|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 5, 2009 5:56:19 GMT -5
if you really wanna say Magyar is Turkic language then please prove it but good luck because it seems the worlds experts will disagree with you. But if you know better then pls dont let them stop you to prove it. From what I have read that proves they were borrowings is that the Turkic words are taken from different Turkic linguistic groups and in different times, this shows they are assimilated words. There is many words in Hungarian of unknown origin, there are words that are said to be Uralic in the end both these groups outnumber the Turkic words. If you take away all the non Turkic words to as you say uncontaminate the language then you will have a very incomplete language with just 300 odd word vocabulary good luck. Actually its thought that the people livinging the area of Bashkiria were Turkicised already some hundred years after the Magyars left that area for Carpathian Basin. When Friar Julian went back in 1200"s they were speaking Hungarian but when people went back later all the people in that area had been Turkicised and hence could n,t understand Magyarul. a good example of a Turkicised Uralic people and possibly they wereoriginally Uralic Baskirs is the Chuvash. Perhaps Baskirs in the end spoke Turkic but doesnt mean they did by origin. It seems you cant believe things unless they sound how you want them to sound. What was the year Friar Julian found them ? it seems they spoke Magyarul. I dont feel particuliarly connected to either Finno-Ugric people or Turkic people not because I am anti either of them Im not but simply because if and when those people had any influence on Hungarian ethnogenesis it was hundreds and thousands of years ago so why I will feel ethnically connected to them. But really connection is not something people always feel on an ethnic basis it can be out of subjective interest or mentality etc. For example I can find Turkic/Turkish culture/things interesting and I do but it doesnt mean I feel Turkic or connected to being Turkish its just something I find interesting and I find several cultures interesting. [
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 5, 2009 7:33:50 GMT -5
What's makes u interested in Turkic culture if ur not Turkic? why dont u just accept being a Turk while u are magyar? anyway Magyars are Turks, when the ottomans and magyars fought each other, it was nothing but a Turk vs Turk war which is very bloody shame on them. I totally disapproved with this but unfortunately Hungary got into trouble cause of this stupid dikhead Matei Corvin who wasnt even magyar, i got my gut to say it right front of his face and every ignorant magyar people who doesnt give a damn about the truth, he can kill me if he want at that time i dont care, im prepared to die!!!!!!!!! Im the biggest magyar ever and will always remain so, if u dont believe it then meet me up and join up with me and i prove it to u.
|
|
|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 5, 2009 9:03:57 GMT -5
what makes you a muslim if you wasnt born a muslim, as i said interest is also an individual and subjective issue too it doesnt have to relate to ethnicity . As I said I find several cultures interesting even though Im am not ethnically related to them.
do you think every Magyar feels they are a Turk, out of all your Hungarian relatives how many of them do you think feel Turkish lol
Ottomans were invading Hungary what did you expect, its not like they turned up nice and friendly offering free donerkebabs to everyone lol.
Hunyadi was just one guy what about all the other Hungarians that fought the Ottomans. WBB do you know why the Churchbells ring out at midday everyday ?
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 5, 2009 10:07:22 GMT -5
If Hungary wasnt involved in fighting against the Turks by helping those poor Vlach and slavs beggers then most certainly Hungary wouldnt be invaded. Matei Corvin a romanian was the blame for destructing Hungary. Hungary use a Romanian king to rule, micsoda orszag!!!
unbelievable another romanian guy. Hungarians was so lunatic at that time.
I think i know why, so that people can remember and honour the devil satan or lucifer or something like a 666 against those peoples (muslims) who tried to deliver the final revelation of god into Hungary. My mum's apartment is not too far away from the templom in ujlipotvaros (about 100 metres away), i once told the priest in that church to shut the hell up. looool!!!! ;D i was a bit in a bad mood cause i had a punch on with a cigany at that day. ;D
|
|
|
Post by oszkarthehun on Jun 5, 2009 18:52:32 GMT -5
I dont feel related to Turkics or Finno Uralics, I dont see need for Hungarians to identify themselves through other people/peoples, as I said Hungarians have rich heritage and ethnoenesis of their own and they are unique they are Hungarians not something else. I am not anti Turkic or anti Finno-Uralic I give them respect but I dont feel need to kissing their ass. Nor do I fool myself to believe I have any Finnic/Ugric or Turkic/Turkish identity.
maybe because you are by choice a Muslim its more natural tendancy for you to feel more connection near an ethnic way because Muslim people in Turkey were considered Turks.
actually Mathias Corvinus was most likely 3/4 Hungarian that is based on the information that his Fathers mother was a Magyar which is thought to be the case. Mathias Mother was Magyar and his Father Hunyadi Magyar on maternal side. He wasnt a Romanian King he fought against the Romanian Vlad Tepes.
oh cmon it wasnt case of just helping neighbours Hungary was being attacked as was everybody else. How would Ottomans feel if Christian countries attacked them with the intention of making them Christians and taxing them. This is basically what was happening, so yes war was inevitable and expected. I am proud those Hungarians had the balls to fight for their right to be their own country.
The Churchbells is because Hungary's victory over the Ottomans at Belgrade. The Pope said Hungary was saviour of Christian Europe by winning that battle and he declared in celebration the Churchbells will ring at midday everyday, if you go to Europe you can still hear them ringing everyday.
|
|
|
Post by szorostalpu1 on Jun 5, 2009 22:12:08 GMT -5
"ottomans and magyars fought each other, it was nothing but a Turk vs Turk war "
"Matei Corvin a romanian was the blame for destructing Hungary."
"i got my gut to say it right front of his face and every ignorant magyar people who doesnt give a damn about the truth, he can kill me if he want at that time i dont care, im prepared to die!!!!!!!!! Im the biggest magyar ever and will always remain so, if u dont believe it then meet me up and join up with me and i prove it to u."
lay off the vodka, you never could drink
|
|
wbb
Moderator
Posts: 733
|
Post by wbb on Jun 6, 2009 7:25:26 GMT -5
i understand with u mean, but we already kissing the european and america's arse and that's leads us in a wrong direction...globalised. If we kiss the turanian arse we would be turanian traditionalist and more hungarianist. good u should join a Turania forum. and meet up with lovely turanian peoples, Finnish, Tatars are also included in this forum. www.turania.comu got a lot to learn my szoros friend, u need to worry about hungary now rather than worrying about the past. hungary is at it's gravest danger now. u need to get married and must have 7 kids at least, i gonna have 15 or 16 kids.
|
|
|
Post by szorostalpu1 on Jun 6, 2009 8:28:05 GMT -5
its you who have to face reality arab bacsika...."osi Magyar ver" runs through are veins very little. europai vagyunk, whether you like it or not.
"i gonna have 15 or 16 kids."
then you'd better get started
|
|