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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:22:54 GMT -5
Frangu depicted the Ottoman in the typical fashion: wearing a turban and turban clothing. In fact any oriental is depicted as such in medieval texts, even Persians invading Athens in the 5th century. Its a stereotypical Ottoman depiction and is not concerned with realism but with perceived realism. Cyrus the great: farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3174531904_b8c09cb36f.jpgBellini depicted a single Albanian as he saw him in Istanbul. He was never in Albania to depict him. I dont think that the fustanella has existed in the same sense 500 years ago. It evolved and finally was statified in the late 18th century and then conceptualized. It could have existed in some form prior and probably did, but it did not have the same designation. Because you have a kilt it doesnt make it a fustanelle.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:25:59 GMT -5
Frangu depicted the Ottoman in the typical fashion: wearing a turban and turban clothing. In fact any oriental is depicted as such in medieval texts, even Persians invading Athens in the 5th century. Its a stereotypical Ottoman depiction and is not concerned with realism but with perceived realism. Cyrus the great: farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/3174531904_b8c09cb36f.jpgBellini depicted a single Albanian as he saw him in Istanbul. He was never in Albania to depict him. and the tall hat and the long garment that clothes the Albos? was he inspired by Tanzanians? Since i don't think that was anything stereotypical for Albos then...they were relatively new in the things...
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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:28:24 GMT -5
What I am stating is that Frangu depicted the Ottomans in the way they were stereotyped in the west but did not do so for Albs, since they were Christian and therefore likely to wear any clothing possibly assigned to a christian group.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:28:41 GMT -5
I dont think that the fustanella has existed in the same sense 500 years ago. It evolved and finally was statified in the late 18th century and then conceptualized. It could have existed in some form prior and probably did, but it did not have the same designation. Because you have a kilt it doesnt make it a fustanelle. this is what i believe too. because there isn't any refference for pleated kilts before the late 18th century. So who was the Albanian fashion designer that in 10 years managed to spread that fashion from the southest peak of Peloponnese to north Macedonia...?
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:30:43 GMT -5
What I am stating is that Frangu depicted the Ottomans in the way they were stereotyped in the west but did not do so for Albs, since they were Christian and therefore likely to wear any clothing possibly assigned to a christian group. that clothing isn't assigned to a christian group generally. You can't find Italians depicted like that... don't insist to be idiotic... "And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5) and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. " 1322, Simon Fitzsimons: Itinerary from Ireland to the Holy Land hahahahahahahahahha... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D they're Orc combined with Elfs.... wtf ;D ;D ;D ;D i can't stop laughing... ;D 50kg warrior men...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 25, 2010 12:30:46 GMT -5
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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:34:29 GMT -5
I ascribe to Gerolymatos' thesis that the Greeks willfully adopted the clothing from Albanian robber bands in the 19th century. He has enough written sources on him to make a conclusion and have more of a reason to believe the Head of the Hellenic Studies Department at a noted Canadian University than some online blog.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:42:15 GMT -5
I ascribe to Gerolymatos' thesis that the Greeks willfully adopted the clothing from Albanian robber bands in the 19th century. He has enough written sources on him to make a conclusion and have more of a reason to believe the Head of the Hellenic Studies Department at a noted Canadian University than some online blog. leftists can say many things just to provoke the...patriots...
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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:44:53 GMT -5
"Patriots" can attack leftists as "provoking". Again, I trust a person who is reputed rather than a blog. Especially when he is far from alone in this.
And Fritz' description described the traditional Alb plis. Does he say anything about the legs?
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Post by tsompanos on Oct 25, 2010 12:45:08 GMT -5
this discussion is getting rather dumb , and btw rex they used to wear those wool hats to dampen their heads agains the heavy copper helmets they didnt use them for whatever albanians are wearing qeleshe for.
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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:46:40 GMT -5
Thats not why they wore them... or at least the only reason. It is described as a shepherds hat in the Odyssey. The shepherd Odysseus runs into wears one.
You think your Greek revolutionaries looked different? Look at the pics in the montey forum. Skinny was the common thing then.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 12:48:34 GMT -5
"Patriots" can attack leftists as "provoking". Again, I trust a person who is reputed rather than a blog. Especially when he is far from alone in this. And Fritz' description described the traditional Alb plis. Does he say anything about the legs? What? He is describing the ...plis... wtf... i though that at least you can understand english since you live there... "And then after spending a few days, we passed through the city of Ulcinj, which belongs to the king of Rascia (2), and sailed to Durrës, a city once famous and mighty by land and sea, subject to the emperor of the Greeks but now belonging to the prince of Romania (3), the brother of the aforementioned king of Jerusalem (4), (this city) being in the province of Albania. It should be noted that Albania is a province between Slavonia (5) and Romania, having a language of its own and which the aforementioned schismatic King of Rascia has subjected to his rule. For the Albanians themselves are schismatics, using the rites of the Greeks and are entirely like them in their dress and manner. For like the Greeks, they rarely if ever wear the cowl, but rather a white hat lowered almost flat to the front and raised at the back so that their hair, the length and beauty of which they are extremely proud, may appear more attractive to the eyes of the beholder. The Slavs on the other hand, of whom mention was made above, wear a white hat, oblong and round, on the top of which their nobles stick a long feather in order to be distinguished and recognized more easily by the peasants and common people. " 1322, Simon Fitzsimons: Itinerary from Ireland to the Holy Land He is describing this: 194.177.217.107/gr/showpic.asp?gotonumber=&vmagnification=500&picpath=9999_min_01_143v&curTable=miniatures&curRecord=171&vorder=171&vmode=previousthe kamelaukion...
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 25, 2010 12:50:52 GMT -5
this discussion is getting rather dumb , and btw rex they used to wear those wool hats to dampen their heads agains the heavy copper helmets they didnt use them for whatever albanians are wearing qeleshe for. you could/would be correct ....but then when they retired as solders they would wear the caps to show their past experience like the military ribbons and medals they wear today ......in Roman times in signified Freedom ....freedom after serving as roman soilder ......Freedom/Illryian
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Post by toskaliku on Oct 25, 2010 12:53:15 GMT -5
Thats a nobleman's hat. Its something I expect a Byzantine in Constantinople to wear or some wealthy merchant, not some impoverished peasant in the town. If thats the case then he is clearly discussing more wealthy Albanians who would have been assimilated into the Byzantine style. I always pictured this: oi43.tinypic.com/1pvsy1.jpgSomething more typical for a commoner.
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 25, 2010 12:54:47 GMT -5
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Post by tsompanos on Oct 25, 2010 13:00:14 GMT -5
lol is that canaris?
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rex362
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Post by rex362 on Oct 25, 2010 13:15:02 GMT -5
yes ..but many moons ago when he was younger and wild
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bato2
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Post by bato2 on Oct 25, 2010 13:15:11 GMT -5
It's the national costume of Greece. What's Albania's? Where are the pics of Kastrioti wearing one? George Kastrioti, Skanderbeg, Albania - Iconography(1403)
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Post by mansterofsouli on Oct 25, 2010 13:35:17 GMT -5
It's the national costume of Greece. What's Albania's? Where are the pics of Kastrioti wearing one? George Kastrioti, Skanderbeg, Albania - Iconography(1403) How about that! Kastriotis in an icon with Greek lettering. Hmmmm.... makes one think. And he even wears a foustanella. Hmmmmm..... Thanks for that Bato.
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Patrinos
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Post by Patrinos on Oct 25, 2010 13:35:25 GMT -5
It's the national costume of Greece. What's Albania's? Where are the pics of Kastrioti wearing one? George Kastrioti, Skanderbeg, Albania - Iconography(1403) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D this is the greatest malakia/bs ever written in Illyria forums!!!!!!! That icon is from an 2004 exhibition in Athens ;D ;D ;D Look who others the ...........1403 iconographer(as BATO CLAIMED) drawn.... : The well known Venetian captain of the battle of Lepanto...Che Guevara Simon Bolivar, the head of the 7th crusade... Amundsen, the leader of the Normans of the Two SIcilies... Induist monk of 1403 living in Konstantinoupolis the know guy... the 1403( ) iconographer made a good job... black slave in the streets of Genoa, 1410 The prosopography of Jekins Han, contemporary... Rus knight Ioannes Cashious, Cardinal, ca. 1430 www.prosopa.eu/index.phpPS. the statue of Kastrioti you posted is not more than 50 years old. its the commie style...obvious... edit: the statue was built after 1982 when the museum in Kruja was built. ;D ;D ;D
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