Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 16:47:22 GMT -5
Yeah ,Bokari is right up there with other Albanian sounding names like Koundorioti,Miouli ,Kanari.... and Kastrioti....
|
|
|
Post by atdhetari on Nov 1, 2010 16:50:21 GMT -5
yea all those byzantine sounding names
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 16:58:06 GMT -5
yea all those byzantine sounding names Simple question..why not Illir ,Bashkim,Ermir,Gezim,Rezart,Xhevat,Burim,Fijhat.... why throw such a curve at us by naming a 'pure' albanian, Kolokotroni... and Bouboulina......
|
|
|
Post by atdhetari on Nov 1, 2010 17:02:13 GMT -5
that's what is wrong with your way of putting history together, u take things on nominal value, if smth sounds greek then it is greek, no substance behind ur logic
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 17:10:46 GMT -5
Okay what would you say if we had a hero called Illir?
|
|
|
Post by eaglesson on Nov 1, 2010 17:31:44 GMT -5
I would say you stole it from us xD, coz there are no greeks called Ilir BUT there are albanians that have greek name as effect of the orthodox influence and a bit of greek influence.
|
|
rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
|
Post by rex362 on Nov 1, 2010 17:55:31 GMT -5
what if the name was Retzepis?
|
|
|
Post by eaglesson on Nov 1, 2010 17:58:39 GMT -5
You would be Albanian with a greek suffix like some orthodox Albanians are .
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 1, 2010 18:11:13 GMT -5
Albania was NOT invaded by Italy ... you welcomed them there so you were a protectorate. If no one would have come to your rescue against Serbia a few years ago ... Albania would have welcomed Serbia into their lands and you would have started dancing Hasaposervika...and be converting en masse to Orthodoxy.... and singing their national anthem hail yea!!! Italy didnt invade? Are you out of your mind? First of all, for you guys here compare Italy's invasion of Greece to the invasion of Albania is a joke. Mussolini's invasion of Albania had been under plans since 1927, when it was made a protectorate by defaulting on its loans to Italy. Up until then Albanians had begged the Balkan powers to allow it to enter into the Balkan League, but Greece vetoed for fear that it would be drawn into a war if Albania were attacked. Everyone knew that it was only a matter of time before Italy ousted Zog. Everything in Albania had come from, was produced in or went through Italy. Every piece of military equipment, every bank. Even the telephone lines in Albania were designed to be intercepted by Rome. When Italy invaded in 1939 it didnt invade from the northern mountaineous zone, it invaded amphibiously. 100,000 troops landed in all the major ports, particularly Durres and Vlora. Durres was incredibly important because it is a traditional beachhead for those invading Albania and because for Zog it was the major city center of Albania. On the day of the invasion, Italy cut off all forms of communication so that the 15,000 man Albanian army could not even communicate. Add to this the fact that the Albanian army was designed by Italian instructors so they knew exactly how many men there were to it, what they were armed with, where they were stationed, how many in each station and most of the Albanians, as they would find out, were handed defective military equipment that were sabotaged weeks before the invasion. To put it shortly, the Italian invasion of Albania was meticulous. It had been under ways since Mussolini had come to power since he wanted to get revenge for the humiliation caused by the Vlora War: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlora_War. It was multipronged, with numerous groups attacking from mutiple points against an enemy in complete disarray. Here is an account of the invasion by a British Historian, Owen Pearson: books.google.com/books?id=3_Sh3y9IMZAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Albania+and+King+Zog:+independence,+republic+and+monarchy&hl=en&ei=T0XPTPr6G8T_lgeWovXmCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false On top of that, unlike Greece, Italians invaded from a part of Albania that was flat, not from the mountaineous area. As a result they made full usage of their superiority in mechanized units. Albanians had no tanks while Italians, even though they were pretty chitty, did and could operate them. On top of that Italian naval ships were able to dislodge Albanians from any defensive positions with ease and Albanians had no artillery to fire back. What few there were had been sabotaged by Italians earlier. Abaz Kupi, who mounted the defense of Durres quite well considering the forced available to him, retreated to the mountains where he was not once attacked by Italian units successfully. Nor were other Albanian royalists who took to the mountains attacked successfully. In fact in the mountains of the north, a group of abour 1100 Albanians from Kosova were able to successfully attack and retake Italian positions before running out of supplies and, being isolated, were forced to retreat for Yugoslavia. ON TOP of all that, the Italians had been in Albania for over a decade at that point. They had developed an intimate knowledge of the terrain of Albania. They had built the roads themselves and knew where they lead. They knew where to move and where not to. The traditional form of warfare predominated in Albania: mountain guerilla warfare. This was not possible on the coastal areas, where the terrain is mostly flat. On the northern regions yes and thats why in those areas the Italians had extensive difficulty and in the end abandoned them to the tribal people like the Ottomans had done. By contrast, during the Greek campaign the Italians never made any real usage of their technological superiority. They never deployed any tanks (look at the losses of tanks, almost none) because basic logic tells you that mountains are not proper terrain for such a deployment. They never made full usage of air superiority. The Italians had very little knowledge of the mountain paths of Epirus as opposed to the Greeks who were fighting in their own territory and have a strong historical awareness of the mountains in the area. On top of that the Italian infantry was not well prepared for close mountain combat and not prepared for winter weather in these environments like the locals were. The war between Greece and Italy in the area became a war of infantry and Italians were consistently outmaneuvered by the fact that they didnt know the terrain. They fell into easy traps and were continually surrounded. Another 10,000+ froze to death from the mountain weather. The Italians fell for a hubristic idea that the Greeks were going to collapse by virtue of numbers available on paper. They never realized that they superior numbers were only superior on paper but in practical terms (considering also the low morale of the Italians) they were not in good shape. Once the invasion was stopped, what little morale for the invasion remained was obliterated and further winter battles devastated the army's morale. On top of all that, the invasion of Greece came from one single area: Epirus. It was concentrated combat within the space of very harsh territory. The Albanian campaign was done from Durres down to Sarande. Seriously, you people in the forum, blabering with your empty pride are a joke. A serious joke.
|
|
rex362
Senior Moderator
Pellazg
PELASGIANILLYROALBANIAN
Posts: 19,058
|
Post by rex362 on Nov 1, 2010 18:17:42 GMT -5
yes it was annexed
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 18:24:16 GMT -5
So defeating the Italians is empty pride? They came to us... so we kicked their asses... According to your post the Italians didn't invade Albania they were already there by planting the seeds of victory from 20 years earlier.How many Italians did you guys kill? The Greek army knew of the Albanian terrain from historical battles there? Are you going senile in your young age?
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 1, 2010 18:27:51 GMT -5
Its a fukin joke to sit here and get abused by an army whose only real military success earlier was when it ganged up with 4 other nations against an aging and decrepit empire. Albania's history as a nation is less than spectacular and thats largely the fault of the temperment of our people's, and our failure to unite.
You guys have mythologized and mystified a military operation made by the joke of the Axis. A blunder in every shape and form. Something that was more of an embarrassment for Italy than anything else. Its the process of statemaking ofcourse and every state needs its legitimizing myths but you guys have went ahead and turned it into some pathetic sense of superiority and supremacy. Why dont you guys add your pathetic performance in 1897 and 1922 to this "glorious" military history. Or if you value the Byzantines so much, what about Manzikert and all the other military blunders.
This wasnt made in some way to insult. I honestly dont give a chit, but you people in this forum, particularly the finger pointers, are a fukin joke.
First of all, the Greek army had been in southern Albania during the First Balkan War and occupied the area after WWI. Greece knew the territor. But thats not the issue. southern Albania is essentially northern Greece... these are geographical continuous. A Greek fighting in the area of Greek Epirus would feel largely at home in southern Albania. Secondly, the battle was not decided in Albania, it was decided at Pindus, where the Italian initiative was crushed. It was in the campaign in Greece that the majority of casualties were attained and where the principal operations were made. Afterwards it was a consistent Greek offensive against a collapsed Italian line.
Im not saying its empty pride. The Greeks put a stiff resistance that was not planned by the Italians, who expected little actual resistance. Kudos! However you guys have turned it into some greater notion of superiority. You guys have made it seem like it you defeated the Wehrmacht itself. It was a minor military engagement that, regardless of myths, played little role in the overall course of events.
What I have said here is that the reality of the invasion of Albania and the invasion of Greece are worlds apart. The campaigns were completely different.
PS: Germany was not yet ready to invade the Soviet Union at the time of the Battle of Greece. If you read the memoirs of Heinz Guderian he clarifies the realities of the Eastern Front campaign quite well.
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 1, 2010 18:58:23 GMT -5
And thats another thing. You guys come here with these absurd "you sold your ass". In the late 20s it was Albania that had asked continuously for Greek, Turkish and even Yugoslav help in order to meliorate the Italian threat. King Zog was denied by all of these powers and told that they would not only not help him, but they refused to even remotely deal with Albania. Every single nation around Albania was ready to abandon it to Italy, even though Zog had warned Greece and Yugoslavia that they would be next if Mussolini invaded. Both countries denied the threat.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 19:00:29 GMT -5
Operation Barbarossa was delayed because of the troubles in the balkans...Germany wasn't supposed to step on foot in Greece... this delay as Hitler found out later cost them the war..Germans got defeated by winter not the Russians..
Don't get me started On "the battle of Crete" over 5000 Germans were killed there.. and another 5 weeks of delay...
Why don't you google "The allies first victory in WW2" you don't have to listen to me...
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 1, 2010 19:12:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by eaglesson on Nov 1, 2010 19:12:30 GMT -5
First of all Germans had no high interests in the Balkans they more gave it to the Italians. Your history of all the "dead germans" seems to me like the stories i used to listen from the time of communism in Albania, if there was killed one german in Albania by the partizans they made it 1000 the time when Enver Hoxha made the documentaries.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 19:22:03 GMT -5
Here check it for yourself>>> right here This is not some story your grandpappy told you how he single handily defeated 4o evil Greeks...
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 1, 2010 19:24:01 GMT -5
I dont understand. What about it? The Battle of Crete was chiefly a battle between British and German forces, in which the Germans showed inexperience in overall paratrooping skills and lost an unnecessary amount of troops in order to secure it. It was in the end a British military failure.
What about it? The Greek resistance there was noteworthy but it really served nothing in the greater aspect of the battle.
|
|
Kanaris
Amicus
This just in>>>> Nobody gives a crap!
Posts: 9,589
|
Post by Kanaris on Nov 1, 2010 19:38:09 GMT -5
The Brits evacuated a couple of weeks into the battle WTF you're talking about,Willis? I know you hate Greeks... but don't try to obfuscate history now... The Cretans fought to the bone.... Anyway it seems you don't want to admit it it' okay ,it's well documented . It was the end of Germans using paratroopers to invade someone... I don't understand where you get your sources... prolly same place Rex gets his Pelasgian theories..
|
|
|
Post by toskaliku on Nov 2, 2010 22:40:55 GMT -5
This is what generally happened when Italians went against Albanians in unfavorable mountain terrain. This was a battle between Partizan guerillas and Italian soldiers are Gjorm, in southern Albania, around Vlore: books.google.gr/books?id=P3knunC7z_oC&dq=Albania+in+Occupation+and+War:+From+Fascism+To+Communism+1940-1945&q=gjormi#v=snippet&q=gjormi&f=false (1943 or page 230) The Italian units were entirely routed. The battle was assisted by local villagers who then suffered retribution afterwards when Italians could mount counter offensives with artillery and mortars that the guerillas lacked. This was one of the last cooperative actions between the Albanian Balli Kombetar and Partizan units. By the end of the year the civil conflict had started between the two when Tito told Hoxha that they were strong enough to attack them. German units also suffered a similar fate when maneuvering through unknown mountain territory: books.google.gr/books?id=P3knunC7z_oC&dq=Albania+in+Occupation+and+War:+From+Fascism+To+Communism+1940-1945&q=gjormi#v=onepage&q=kurtes&f=falseWhen the Italians first landed in Durres they also ran into the first and only capable resistance (as they mounted the only available machine gun turrets) by Abas Kupi and 300 other Albanians. books.google.com/books?id=3_Sh3y9IMZAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Albania+and+King+Zog:+independence,+republic+and+monarchy+1908-1939&source=bl&ots=bsPtCzCtz9&sig=bQ_9JaZs1Wp5fLQ9_MTXDwG01a0&hl=en&ei=vuHQTMv-IcWBlAfs3YiGDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=kupi&f=false (begin on page 444 and after that) Reconstruct the link since it seems to mess up otherwise. Look at why it says Albanians were defeated: Italian warships began shelling the positions and Albanians had no way to fire back at them. They were sitting ducks. Abas Kupi then went on to destroy several bridges in order to halt the Italian tanks. These werent regular army members, they were gendarmes, military police. The source mentions that there were no available military units to give a sustained resistance, only lightly armed gerndarmes with virtually no heavy guns except for a few artillery batteries. Oh and Canaris, you spoke about grandfathers. Actually, I don't rely on stories they tell me, they are actually written in books books.google.com/books?id=P3knunC7z_oC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=xhemal+herri&source=bl&ots=kuqjREWugR&sig=spTGadgMyn_ECMnSERYhTcRr_u8&hl=en&ei=TtjQTN2gCcPflgfo-5CADQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=xhemal%20herri&f=falseLook where it says April 7th. Xhemal ismy great-grandfather on my maternal side. His son is my grandfather. The entire book is a good read. It is composed of British OSE, German, Italian, Greek and local accounts of those days.
|
|