Hellenic origins of Illyrians?

[srbobran]

I have read, on varius forums, that Illyrians could quite possibly be of Hellene origin. Does anyone here have any thoughts or information regarding this?

[Emperor AAdmin]

Bellow is a link to countless articles that can attest to what I am about to state here

p100.ezboard.com/Illyria--Ilirija--Illyrikon/fbalkansillyriaforum

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After reading countless data and much research that has already been performed upon ancient Illyrians it appears that Illyrians were a conglomeration of often unrelated tribes and have to be divided upon several units for them to be better understood. Original Illyrians were southern Illyrians. After Romans took control locals mainly become romanized (having their own romance language called dalmatian latin except much of todays Albania which remained hellenophone until roughly coming of Turks) and entire western Balkans becomes named Illyricum. At this point is where most of us refer to most of western Balkans as Illyria.

Realistic subdivision of 'Illyria' (Illyricum)

1) Southern Hellenistic Illyrians (branch of northern Hellenes/Greeks)
These encompass regions south of Hellenistic Illyrian Daorson (todays Stolac, Hercegovina). Strabo relates them via language, culture and religion to other northern Greek nations such as Macedonians (original Dorians) and Epirotes. Language would have been Homeric-like Greek. Northern Greeks appeared conservative by nature. Frygians in central Asia came from what is todays Slavophone Macedonia and spoke a language very much akin to Homeric Greek. These Illyrians were actively serving as part of Alexandrian troops in spreading Hellenism in western Asia (especially Taulantians). These were often kingdoms reminiscent of Homeric era (like Epirotes and Macedonians) and were fully Hellenistic in language and culture. The only remains are in Greek language and they referred to their countries and rulers in Greek and under Greek titles. The original Illyrians were Ardideans (centered in todays Montenegro). Also Illyrian mythical origins are fully Greek in origin (Theban ruler Kadmos and Harmonia created Illyrius, mythical progenetor of Illyrians). One of the earliest Illyrian rulers Hyllus has essentially identically name with one of the major three Dorian (of Macedon origin) tribes that invaded Greece (while existing in roughly same time frame). Conclusion is that southern Illyrians were a branch of northern Hellenes together with Epirotes and Macedonians (also one can add southern Hellenistic Thracians here). read more in the link above. Also these original Illyrians were far more advanced in culture and civilization to ones bellow (especially ones under numbers 3 and 4).

2) Italic Illyrians or Histrians to be precise in what is now Istrian peninsula in NW Croatian coast. Fully Italic in language and culture.

3) Japodians (todays Krajina in Croatia) are most Celtic-like in culture and likely at least partially Celtic in origin. Other culturally Celtic-like people (also village dwellers) are also Dalmates in what is now Dalmatia and western Hercegovina.

4) Pannonians were culturally German-like (of the time) meaning forest dwellers.

again for more detail

p100.ezboard.com/Illyria--Ilirija--Illyrikon/fbalkansillyriaforum

(many of these posts will be re posted in this sub forum)

[Rhezus]

I don't agree that "Southern Hellenistic Illyrians" were a branch of northern Hellenes/Greeks. The southern part of these tribes were hellenized, but ethnically of non-greek stock.

[panagiotopoulos]

^^^
How could you possibly know that?

[Rhezus]

Illyrians were never greek. Same applies for Dacians or Thracians. Partly hellenistic, but culturaly only! And that doesn't make anybody a greek.

[albillyrian]

Illyrians were albanians.

[kapetan]

you mean albanians were illyrians

[kartadolofonos]

what have cadmus and harmonia and illyrius with
albanians to do
illyrian names were hellenic too,,,,
today albanians are ottomans of hellenic stock

[alba1]

Oct 21, 2008 22:10:20 GMT -5 kartadolofonos said:

what have cadmus and harmonia and illyrius with
albanians to do
illyrian names were hellenic too,,,,
today albanians are ottomans of hellenic stock

I forgot you call Helenic people anyone who is Orthodox, wow how smart of you!

[Gigolo]

Southern Illyrians were very much different from the Northern and Pannonian ones. Even skull shape was different. So it may be possible the Suutherners had Hellenic conections (even likely) but I wouldn't say their "origin" was Hellenic. That's going too far and doesn't have much basis.

After all, we're not gonna rely on mythology for facts.

[Kassandros]

Aug 21, 2009 19:19:32 GMT -5 alba1 said:

Oct 21, 2008 22:10:20 GMT -5 kartadolofonos said:

what have cadmus and harmonia and illyrius with
albanians to do
illyrian names were hellenic too,,,,
today albanians are ottomans of hellenic stock

I forgot you call Helenic people anyone who is Orthodox, wow how smart of you!

...have you ever thought... that everyone who was Orthodox in Albania or Turkey so as to be called Hellenic... had a Hellenic skull shape so as to become Orthodox.. ?

[ilirdardani]

interesting topic, I think there's a possibility of that.

personally I've always believed that illyrians and ancient greeks were connected somehow, like if we go back 3 to 5 thousand years.

[rex362]

today albanians are ottomans of hellenic stock

oh ....

just like you ....ottoman Orthdox ?

[kartadolofonos]

[Emperor AAdmin]

Hellenism of south Illyria:

On elements of political organization of illyrian communities

"The Illyrians belong to the group of ancient peoples, who already in the course of the lst millenium of the new era in the political development achieved the level of the state organization. It concerns, first of all, the tribes that were in the Southern parts of the Illyrian world (Peonian, Taulantian, Dardanian and Ardieyanian). They lived close to the Greek world, where from the pre-historic time the cultural and political influences reached them. The Illyrians being very close neighbours of the Greek developed culture took over the progressive cultural heritage, influenced by them, they abandoned the tribal organization rather early and established the form of the social life, which differed little from that of the Greeks. "

Note: Small segment from bellow link
illyriancommunities.illyria.net/index.html


PS: Original Illyrians (first being to call themselves Illyrians were Ardideans) were so thoroughly Hellenic in culture (as all of southern Illyrians were) that Hellenic culture was what defined them what they were and without which they would not have existed as they are know to be in history. It becomes irrelevant as far as whether they were Hellenized through time (something that can only be speculated upon due to lack of evidence in identifying pre-hellenic influences in southern Illyria) or closely akin to start with with Dorian Epirotes and Macedonians since there is nothing else of substance or even concrete that defines them but being Hellenic in culture, language and state organization.

[Emperor AAdmin]

The entire region in the map as far as antiquity goes (even including some regions like Daorson (now Stolac, Hercegovina), west of Ardideans, which is not showing on the map) in effect falls under complete Greek cultural influence (as explained in great detail in the link I provided above).

Modified Map with included southern Illyrians

[bosna505]

Hellenic is really not Illyrian

[bosna505]

Illyrians are mostly Bosnians and Dalmatians

[Kassandros]

Illyrians are of Hellenic stock. Fullstop!
If they were not of Hellenic stock... Alexander would have destroy them like he did with everything non Hellenic.
He never attack and destroy the lands of non-Hellenic tribes. Small battles lile all city-states had.. yes.. but total war and full disaster ONLY to non-Hellenes.!
The only Hellenes who suffered disaster from Alexander were the Thebans and that was due to treason. NEVER a non-Hellene had faced a total disaster from Alexander.
Illyrians, althouth a small.. but really anoying tribe (chicken thieves from that time ) .. was always faced by small mini-wars by the huge state of Macedonia. Never total execution like Persians or Indians etc.

Look at their faces ie. Tosks! They have more Greek faces than many "new" Greeks from Black Sea have...

[bosna505]

Jan 21, 2010 22:08:43 GMT -5 Kassandros said:

Illyrians are of Hellenic stock. Fullstop!
If they were not of Hellenic stock... Alexander would have destroy them like he did with everything non Hellenic.
He never attack and destroy the lands of non-Hellenic tribes. Small battles lile all city-states had.. yes.. but total war and full disaster ONLY to non-Hellenes.!
The only Hellenes who suffered disaster from Alexander were the Thebans and that was due to treason. NEVER a non-Hellene had faced a total disaster from Alexander.
Illyrians, althouth a small.. but really anoying tribe (chicken thieves from that time ) .. was always faced by small mini-wars by the huge state of Macedonia. Never total execution like Persians or Indians etc.

Look at their faces ie. Tosks! They have more Greek faces than many "new" Greeks from Black Sea have...

Illyrians a Hellenic Stock MUAUAUAUAUAUAUAAU

and Alexander is your proofe for this???
Alexander is a Macedonian not Greek and today are Macedonians
have most Antic Macedonian DNA not Greeks please stop your Greek Propagandas.

Illyrians have nothing same with Greeks or Hellenics