CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 11, 2010 18:36:45 GMT -5
Germany has has been asked to posthumously strip the late Yugoslav leader Tito (born Josip Broz) of its highest state decoration. The call follows disclosures which allege that he personally ordered the murders of Croatian exiles who were seeking political asylum in the West from his communist regime. West Germany awarded Tito its Grand Cross Order of Merit, its highest accolade for a foreign head of state, in 1974. The gesture was in recognition of the Yugoslav leader's role as a respected East-West mediator who helped foster détente. However, former Croatian exiles have now sent a petition to Chancellor Angela Merkel's government alleging that during the 1970s Tito ordered his secret service to assassinate Croatian political opponents who were seeking exile in West Germany. The exiles allege that the West German authorities were involved in a cover-up, which resulted in hardly any of the murders being solved. They claim that even after Tito's death in 1980, the Yugoslav Communist Party continued to send hit men to Germany to kill Croatian exiles. They say the practice continued until 1989 and that a total of 22 exiles were murdered in this way. The Croatian World Congress in Germany, which represents former exile groups, is backing the petition, which demands a full investigation into the murders and calls for Tito to be posthumously stripped of his decoration. "It is the responsibility of Germany and in particular that of present-day Croatia to find out the truth and create justice for the victims," Mijo Mari, the chairman of the congress, told Germany's Der Spiegel magazine. The exiles' allegations are supported by incriminating evidence obtained by Germany's Federal Prosecutor's Office. It has issued international warrants for the arrest of six suspects who are still wanted for questioning in connection with the killings. The federal prosecutors have collected witness statements and documents which show that during Yugoslavia's communist period, the Croatian branch of Yugoslav intelligence ran a network of informants and hit squads in West Germany. Their evidence against Tito is based on statements made during a Munich court case dealing with one of the murders, which established in 2008 that Tito "was the only one issuing the relevant orders". One of the primary suspects still being sought is a former Croatian communist called Josip Perkovi, wanted in connection with the murder of Stjepan Durekovi, a Croatian exile who was shot and then beaten to death by communist agents near in Munich in 1983. Federal prosecutors say their attempts to bring Durekovi's killers to justice have been thwarted by the Croatian authorities' refusal to issue an arrest warrant. Perkovi, who is suspected of masterminding at least two murders, was an adviser to the Croatian Defence Ministry before his recent retirement. His son is said to be a security adviser to the Croatian president. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-urged-to-strip-tito-of-honour-after-claims-he-ordered-assassinations-2157443.html
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Post by toskaliku on Dec 11, 2010 19:13:03 GMT -5
A bunch of weaklings who wish to insult the memory of a man who can no longer defend himself. Its so pathetic when men in post Communist countries who once grovelled at the feet of their leaders now, when their leader is dead, get the nerve to attack him left and right.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 12, 2010 8:30:53 GMT -5
These Croats in exile that were assassinated were simply Ustasha War Criminals of WW2 during the Ustasha regime of NDH 1941-1945. They got what they deserved, too bad they weren't ambushed and brought back to Yugoslavia inorder to be fully prosecutted and sent to priso for life and endured persecution for the rest of their misserable lives in prison.
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 15, 2010 2:22:59 GMT -5
neka neka ...
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 15, 2010 2:53:17 GMT -5
Accident.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 13:18:05 GMT -5
These Croats in exile that were assassinated were simply Ustasha War Criminals of WW2 during the Ustasha regime of NDH 1941-1945. They got what they deserved, too bad they weren't ambushed and brought back to Yugoslavia inorder to be fully prosecutted and sent to priso for life and endured persecution for the rest of their misserable lives in prison. Idiot
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 13:26:58 GMT -5
A bunch of weaklings who wish to insult the memory of a man who can no longer defend himself. Its so pathetic when men in post Communist countries who once grovelled at the feet of their leaders now, when their leader is dead, get the nerve to attack him left and right. Interesting how you use the word 'grovel.' It seems that the whole point of them being in Germany was to escape the dictator in the first place. Likewise , rally against the dictator while he was alive and had a legion of active spies would be unwise as the protesters and their families could be in danger. These Croatians are probably trying to bring to light the criminal and murderous 'other' personality of trait of Tito. In the international and even internal public eye , Tito was a visionary as well as an inspirational and charismatic - even benevolent- dictator .... as long as you agreed with his ways. The same is true of the legend of Mao in China. ( Granted Tito's crimes were on a much smaller scale) Mao is seen as a hero by most honest Chinese today because of his dauntless resolve to fight the imperialist occupiers of his country and his resonance with the lower class and enmity towards the privileged. Maybe his intentions were somewhat noble but his methods were sheer brutality in the form of destruction and murder currently not rivaled. Che Guerra is an example of a man turned myth as well. Charismatic and inspirational yet brutal and bloodthirsty. Take your pick. Last note , I will agree that it is rather silly and fruitless for these Croatians to grovel to the German government for something that probably won't happen and it will only bring resentment towards them. Most of the world had a positive view of Tito or at least a neutral one because he was seen as the main bulwark against Nazi influence in Croatia and other parts of Yugoslavia. Croats, mostly unjustly, already live with the stigma of being viewed 'pro Nazi' or 'Nazis' because of their fervent nationalism ( which is strange since not even Germans are 'Nazified' these days as much as Croats.. its like we are cursed to carry the guilt of a German Nationalist Socialist party moreso than even German people... propaganda is indeed a powerful tool) and it seems that any Croat critical of Tito is automatically labeled in this camp of 'Nazi' 'Ustasha' or 'Fascist.' ( as demonstrated by stanko's trolling post). Croats should let this one go and let the dictator have his moment in history and move on. Likewise I think we should move on from the recent war ( this goes out to Thompson fanatics and diaspora). Serbs are not our eternal enemies. They are people too and suffered just like we did. Lets build bridges not burn them.
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Post by terroreign on Dec 15, 2010 14:52:50 GMT -5
^Yes move on, just give back Srpska Krajina first.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 15, 2010 18:55:21 GMT -5
These Croats in exile that were assassinated were simply Ustasha War Criminals of WW2 during the Ustasha regime of NDH 1941-1945. They got what they deserved, too bad they weren't ambushed and brought back to Yugoslavia inorder to be fully prosecutted and sent to priso for life and endured persecution for the rest of their misserable lives in prison. Idiot All i am saying is what goes around comes around. May these Ustasa War Criminals rott in hell. This is the one and only thing that TITO did right through out his entire existence in history.
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Post by toskaliku on Dec 15, 2010 19:23:38 GMT -5
A bunch of weaklings who wish to insult the memory of a man who can no longer defend himself. Its so pathetic when men in post Communist countries who once grovelled at the feet of their leaders now, when their leader is dead, get the nerve to attack him left and right. Interesting how you use the word 'grovel.' It seems that the whole point of them being in Germany was to escape the dictator in the first place. Likewise , rally against the dictator while he was alive and had a legion of active spies would be unwise as the protesters and their families could be in danger. These Croatians are probably trying to bring to light the criminal and murderous 'other' personality of trait of Tito. In the international and even internal public eye , Tito was a visionary as well as an inspirational and charismatic - even benevolent- dictator .... as long as you agreed with his ways. The same is true of the legend of Mao in China. ( Granted Tito's crimes were on a much smaller scale) Mao is seen as a hero by most honest Chinese today because of his dauntless resolve to fight the imperialist occupiers of his country and his resonance with the lower class and enmity towards the privileged. Maybe his intentions were somewhat noble but his methods were sheer brutality in the form of destruction and murder currently not rivaled. Che Guerra is an example of a man turned myth as well. Charismatic and inspirational yet brutal and bloodthirsty. Take your pick. Last note , I will agree that it is rather silly and fruitless for these Croatians to grovel to the German government for something that probably won't happen and it will only bring resentment towards them. Most of the world had a positive view of Tito or at least a neutral one because he was seen as the main bulwark against Nazi influence in Croatia and other parts of Yugoslavia. Croats, mostly unjustly, already live with the stigma of being viewed 'pro Nazi' or 'Nazis' because of their fervent nationalism ( which is strange since not even Germans are 'Nazified' these days as much as Croats.. its like we are cursed to carry the guilt of*german Nationalist Socialist party moreso than even German people... propaganda is indeed a powerful tool) and it seems that any Croat critical of Tito is automatically labeled in this camp of 'Nazi' 'Ustasha' or 'Fascist.' ( as demonstrated by stanko's trolling post). Croats should let this one go and let the dictator have his moment in history and move on. Likewise I think we should move on from the recent war ( this goes out to Thompson fanatics and diaspora). Serbs are not our eternal enemies. They are people too and suffered just like we did. Lets build bridges not burn them. I think that the problem with the Ustasha memory versus the (West) German Nazi memory is the level of awareness and confrontation with it. Its simple, you dont see Germans doing mass zeig heils as with Croatians during soccer matches or nationalist marches, nor does any German writer downplay the effects of the holocaust and WWII as Tudjman did in his publication. Much as with East Germany, after WWII the memory and effects of the the Ustasha was downplayed by the Tito's men. The actions were minimized to the smallest possible crew and once they were liquidated the rest of the population was turned into victims and resisters. Like with East Germany (and for a while West Germany until the historikerstreit and figures like Anna Rosmus), the aftereffects of such an event as Jasenovac was not properly dealt with and as such the weight was minimized in Croatian eyes, or, even worst, glorified in the wake of renewed nationalism. Hence why people are more critical of the Croatian side. But eitherway, thats not what my issue is about. Its about the inherent pathetic smallness of people who seek to throw dirt on someone after he is dead and gone not by constructive criticism but active aggression, the kind of which would have been a joke otherwise during their reign. I think Stanko does have a bit of truth in what he says, even if he is an idiot all around. Many of those who left the communist countries were men with some right wing links and afterwards (especially in Serbia) served to inflame hatred and war to a greater point than the people inside. They are often people who would have been worse for Croatia than any Tito (who was one of the most liberal and open of all the communist leaders, no comparison possible in anyway with Mao).
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 23:28:09 GMT -5
^Yes move on, just give back Srpska Krajina first. You know that's not going to happen so holding on to this ultimatum will never resolve anything. The only way Serbs are ever going to reintegrate into this part of Croatia ( The Krajina) is through peaceful, possibly economic means and this will take decades to reestablish. War is not an option for either side. Its sort of like Bosniaks and most of the rest of the world requesting that the Serbs dismantle RS in Bosnia. It's not happening. Any direction forward must accept the reality of the current Bosnian demographic , same is true for the Croatian one. On a personal note, I think Croatia should have let the Serbs keep the Krajina. Not all of it, of course. Serbs should have kept all parts where they didn't forcibly expel Croats ( 40% of the population in the territory the Serbs claimed) and others. If it were up to me and the Serbs were willing to negotiate property that neither them or the Croats would take by force , let them have that land. The parts the Serbs formed majorities in wasn't very productive anyway and Croatians hardly ventured to those villages. This is why the Serbs took more land , obviously , in order for the RSK to be sustainable , it needed more commercial land which it had pretty much 0%, that meant war with the Croats which they knew they would lose if Belgrade even marginally cut off the lifeline. Neither side wouldn't negotiate on those fairer terms though. Croatians say no to independence on any level and the Serbs will never settle for less land ( remind you of Kosovo?). Show me some Serbs and Croats that actually respect property rights and maybe we can do something
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 23:32:13 GMT -5
All i am saying is what goes around comes around. May these Ustasa War Criminals rott in hell. This is the one and only thing that TITO did right through out his entire existence in history. Well they are rotting although I don't know about hell as it probably doesn't exist. However , I'm simply pointing out that not every Croatian Tito critic is an Ustasha/Fascist/Nazi. If you can't comprehend that then , kid , I can't really reason with ya.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 15, 2010 23:59:54 GMT -5
Well I'm sort of going to play devil's advocate but I do agree with this analysis in general. There are just a couple key factors to consider when comparing the obvious overt nationalism of today's Croats vs the virtually non-existent nationalism of Germans ( though that is changing now). Germans experienced reunification and obtained their entire country without a drop of blood or mass graves to pay for it. The Croats , rather recently , paid a much more hefty price for a country , many times smaller than Germany , to call their own. Since war was more recent with Croats as opposed to Germans , the level of nationalism is obviously going to be higher. Not only that , all of Croatia was under a communist regime ( while far more benevolent than Stalin's) while only a part of Germany was. The Nazi associations of the WW2 Croatian puppet government was resurrected in the 90s via Tudjman's regime. It was indeed a nationalist regime , used a Croatian flag without a star ( but no =U= either yet it was associated with the Ustasha banner) , and as you mentioned the president wrote controversially about the official narrative of death camps during WW2 , particularly Jasenovac to which there was no official narrative actually. Tudjman along with many academics , even some Serbian ones , challenged the obviously blown up numbers of victims of Jasenovac and became irritated at the fact that these mythical numbers were used as a weapon against any kind of Croatian national promotion. In all honesty , Tudjman's numbers are probably far more objective and closer to the truth than the sourceless narratives of 500,000 , 1,000,000 etc. Perhaps Tudjman's mistake was making the crime seem 'less immoral' just because the actual victims might have been less than 'officially published.' Mass murder is mass murder , tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. On top of that , Tudjman was very uncharismatic to the West , in fact of all three ( Slobo , Alija , Frank) he was the least appealing to them. Tudjman was very much into Philosophy and Western ideals yet he articulated that very poorly plus he didn't speak English! He was sort of a private man and introverted as well. Not socially gifted and he only trusted the Germans. Compare that to Izetbegovic who spoke English and Arabic , very soft voice and honest face and sincere eyes. Or the master ( second only to Tito) Milosevic , without a doubt , the most charismatic of the Ex-Yu leaders and he spoke very good English to the point of being able to manipulate language in front of the diplomats ! Milosevic was a very likable guy , pretty much the opposite of Tudjman. Well written. Yes and because the Croatian side wasn't presented well to the West. Again , Tudjman was phobic of foreigners aside from 'traditional allies' like Germany ( uber alles) and he sort of viewed the Anglo and French West as the ones who signed Croats away into slavery , especially after WWI. He also didn't speak English, I think that in itself is huge. And as far as Bosnia goes , probably the least understood and most misrepresented side was the Croat one. Maybe. I just think the whole thing is futile. But Germany has passed some pretty ridiculous laws based on ethnic or religious grounds ( I.e. did you know its illegal to name your child Judas in Germany?) and perhaps these Croats thought that maybe they can get a dictator to be less praiseworthy. Right wing , most definitely but absolutely fascist? I don't think so. Not only that , the families of these people are also branded the same way ( though some of it might be deserved due to the ridiculous turbo nationalism you notice in the diaspora). Tito was more reasonable than most his communist peers in the world , this is certainly fact but the man has skeletons in his closet to say the least. Read more: illyria.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=hrvatskacroatia&thread=32178&page=1#ixzz18FJS1pJT
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 16, 2010 4:38:50 GMT -5
tito = war criminal, dictator, scum of history. krajina, lol. dabogda vam se dogodila jos jedna krajina. rofl.
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Post by Marshall_Stanko on Dec 16, 2010 17:12:15 GMT -5
All i am saying is what goes around comes around. May these Ustasa War Criminals rott in hell. This is the one and only thing that TITO did right through out his entire existence in history. Well they are rotting although I don't know about hell as it probably doesn't exist. However , I'm simply pointing out that not every Croatian Tito critic is an Ustasha/Fascist/Nazi. If you can't comprehend that then , kid , I can't really reason with ya. I never said that TITO's critics are not all Nazi's, infact majority of TITO's critics are not fascists, i myself am a TITO's critic aswell. However all i am saying is TITO did one thing right by assassinating the Ustasha war criminals that escaped from prosecution in Yugoslavia after world war 2 and i am proud to say that they got what they deserved. Simple as that. May they rott in hell along with TITO.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 16, 2010 23:34:46 GMT -5
Well they are rotting although I don't know about hell as it probably doesn't exist. However , I'm simply pointing out that not every Croatian Tito critic is an Ustasha/Fascist/Nazi. If you can't comprehend that then , kid , I can't really reason with ya. I never said that TITO's critics are not all Nazi's, infact majority of TITO's critics are not fascists, i myself am a TITO's critic aswell. However all i am saying is TITO did one thing right by assassinating the Ustasha war criminals that escaped from prosecution in Yugoslavia after world war 2 and i am proud to say that they got what they deserved. Simple as that. May they rott in hell along with TITO. Stanko , did you know my grandfather was a target? He had to change his name and everything. He eventually made it back into Yugoslavia after the 50s but it was very dangerous for him after the war. He was drafted Croatian pilot flying for the Germans. He shipped troops , weapons , supplies , and did re-con. Supposedly he even revealed a lot of tactical information on Partisan positions. He was branded an Ustasha since he fled via the underground networks aided by the Vatican. With this information alone I think you would consent to him being ruthlessly murdered for his 'crimes.' Do you know how he got his named cleared? I'll tell you. The State of Israel cleared his name. Turns out that he flew several Jewish families away into Greece to await transportation to Palestine. He saved their lives and his name is etched into a memorial there. He also saved people in Dalmatia from being rounded up and raped or killed by Italian soldiers and their Chetnik pack of wolves. He would've been murdered only because he was an officer rank in Pavelic's army ( not exactly by choice btw) but you had to be an officer in order to fly and he could only fly for the Germans. A spectacular man. It might have been a sort of poetic justice for UDBAS to kill individuals that really hurt people in the past but also their families? And Tito did more things 'right' than that. He's a mixed bag to say the least but not the paragon of virtue , that's for sure.
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Post by andromeda on Dec 16, 2010 23:37:58 GMT -5
tito = war criminal, dictator, scum of history. krajina, lol. dabogda vam se dogodila jos jedna krajina. rofl. dabogda da vasa buduca kcer uda se za Srbina. LOL!
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CiKoLa
Amicus
Gotovina Heroj!
Posts: 3,728
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Post by CiKoLa on Dec 17, 2010 2:31:09 GMT -5
^^ Sa zvjerima se ne ulazi u brak! Lol!
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Post by andromeda on Dec 17, 2010 18:19:47 GMT -5
^^ Sa zvjerima se ne ulazi u brak! Lol! Onda kako je to moguce da imas roditelje ili da si uopce bio rodjen? ;D
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gavrilo
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Vi ste svi banane
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Post by gavrilo on Dec 17, 2010 19:44:05 GMT -5
Andro i respect what you are trying to say, I think you have valid points.
There are people like you that are a tiny minority, and much more pickolas out there.
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