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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2008 0:02:22 GMT -5
Real Illyrian(7/10/03 11:31 am) Population and National Characteristics.—With a constant excess of male over female children, the population increased steadily from 1869 to 1900, when it reached 591,597. Of this total 1 % are foreigners and about 3 % Italians, whose numbers 1 These figures, taken from the Austrian official returns, include the population of the entire commune, not merely the urban residents. Only in Zara, Spalato, Sebenico and Ragusa, do the actual townsfolk number more than 1000. The Morlachs, who constitute the remaining 96%, belong to the Serbo-Croatian branch of the Slavonic race, having absorbed the Latinized Illyrians, Albanians and other alien elements with which they have been associated. The name of Morlachs, Morlaks or Morlacks commonly bestowed by English writers on. the Dalmatian Slays, though sometimes restricted to the peasantry of the hills, is an abbreviated form of Mavrovlachi, meaning either “Black Vlachs,” or, less probably, “ Sea Vlachs.” It was originally applied to the scattered remnants of the Latin or Latinized inhabitants of central Illyria, who were driven from their homes by the barbarian invaders during the 7th century, and took refuge among the mountains. Throughout the middle ages the Mavrovlachi were usually nomadic shepherds, cattle-drovers or muleteers. In the i4th century they emigrated from central Illyria into northern Dalmatia and maritime Croatia; and these regions were thenceforward known as Morlaccizia, until the 18th century. Gradually, however, the Mavrovlachi became identified with the Slays, whose language and manners they adopted, and to whom they gave their own name. In northern Dalmatia the Slays of the interior are still called Morlacchi; in the south this name expresses contempt. Of the Vlachs, properly so called, very few are left in the country; although the name Vlachs (q.v.) is frequently used by the Slays to designate the Italians and the town-dwellers generally. The literary languages of Dalmatia are Italian and Serbo-Croatian; the spoken language is, in each case, modified by the introduction of various dialect forms. The Morlachs wear a picturesque and brightly-coloured costume, resembling that of the Serbs (see SERVIA). In appearance they are sometimes blond, with blue or grey eyes, like the Shumadian peasantry of Servia; more often, olive-skinned, with dark hair and eyes, like the Montenegrins, whom they rival in stature, strength and courage; while their conservative spirit, their devotion to national traditions, poetry and music, their pride, indolence and superstition, are typically Servian. Dalmatian public life is deeply affected by the jealousies which subsist between the Slays and the Italians, whose influence, though everywhere waning, remains predominant in some of the towns; and between Orthodox “Serbs,” who use the Cyrillic alphabet, and Roman Catholic “Croats,” who prefer the Latin. 92.1911encyclopedia.org/D/DA/DALMATIA.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2008 0:04:03 GMT -5
Real Illyrian(7/10/03 11:35 am) ~. The Morlachs (Mavrovlachi) of the West.—These are already mentioned as Nigri Latini by the presbyter of Dioclea (c. 1150) in the old Dalmatian littoral and the mountains of what is now Montenegro, Herzegovina and North Albania. Other colonies extended through a great part of the old Servian interior, where is a region still called Stara VlaIka or “Old Walachia.” The great commercial staple of the east Adriatic shores, the republic of Ragusa, seems in its origin to have been a Ruman settlement, and many Viach traces survived in its later dialect. Philippus de Diversis, who described the city as it existed in 1440, says that “the various officers of the republic do not make use either of Slav or Italian, with which they converse with strangers, but a certain other dialect only partially intelligible to us Latins,” and cites words with strong Ruman affinities. In the mountains above Ragusa a number of Viach tribes are mentioned in the archives of that city, and the original relationship of the Ragusans and the nomadic Alpine representatives of the Roman provincials, who preserved a traditional knowledge of the old lines of communication throughout the peninsula, explains the extraordinary development of the Ragusan commerce. In the 14th century the Mavrovlachi or Morlachs extended themselves towards the Croatian borders, and a large part of maritime Croatia and northern Dalmatia began to be known as Morlacchia. A Major Vlachia was formed about the triple frontier of Bosnia, Croatia and Dalmatia, and a “ Little Walachia” as far north as Po~ega. The Morlachs have now become Slavonized (see DALMATIA).39.1911encyclopedia.org/V/VL/VLADIKAVKAZ.htm___________ In addition, Vlachs known as Morlachs, or Mavrovlachi, inhabited areas in the mountains of Montenegro, Herzegovina, and Northern Albania as well as on the southern coast of Dalmatia, where they founded Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik). In the 14th century some Morlachs moved northward into Croatia. In the 15th century others, later called Cici, settled in the Istrian Peninsula." www.vlachophiles.net/britannica.htm----- The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see DALMATIA: Population; and VLACHS), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries.35.1911encyclopedia.org/I/IL/ILOILO.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2008 0:04:54 GMT -5
Real Illyrian(7/10/03 11:50 am) BLACK VLACHS ORIGINS Morgetia, meaning black (Moro) Getia, was an ethnical center inhabited by the Morgets (black Gets or Getae), an prehelenic community which remained unchanged until the arrival of Romans. Robert Leighton, a specialist in Italian prehistory at Edinburgh: "it does not seem possible to distinguish with any accuracy or confidence between Ausonians, Morgetians or Sikels on a purely archaeological basis". Later, in Latin sources are mentioned the Nigri Latini - Black Latins! They are the ‘Maurovlachs’ or Black Latins, who lived west of Macedonia, in the ranges from Mount Sar to Mount Pindus. The Morlachs (Mavrovlachi) described as Nigri Latini are mentioned as inhabiting the coast of southern Dalmatia and the mountains of Montenegro,Herzegovina,and southern Albania(c.1150).MORLACHS, THE VLACHS FROM THE BLACK MOUNTAINVlachs known as Morlachs, or Mavrovlachi, Greek "Mavrovlachos", meaning "black Vlach" (mavro=black, in Greek), inhabited areas in the mountains of Montenegro, meaning "Black Mountain" in Italian, Hercegovina, and northern Albania as well as on the southern coast of Dalmatia, where they founded Ragusa (modern Dubrovnik). In the 14th century some Morlachs moved northward into Croatia. Here is what the Yugoslav Encyclopedia (Enciklopedija Leksikografskog Zavoda, Zagreb, 1968, book 4) tells about them: “Morlaki, ( Murlaki; from Ital. Morlacco, being shortening of Greek form Mauroblahos - mauros - black, Blahos - Vlah; Maurovlasi or Morovlasi, in latin sources called Nigri Latini - Black Latins), name used for shepherds of Roman origin or romanized, that kept themselves in Balkan peninsula mountains after Slavic colonization in 6th century, keeping some linguistic and somatic characteristics. Morlaki (Morovlasi) are called those Romanian shepherds that, running from Turks towards west, settled in mountains from Skadar lake [on border of Montenegro and Albania] to Velebit [in northern Croatian coast]. So, a group of them came to island Krk 1450-80 (villages Dubasnica and Poljica) where some words and roots of Romanian language, interwove with Slavic words (as in the prayer "Our father") , were kept until beginning of 19th century. Some groups of those Romanians came to Trieste [on Italian-Slovenian border], and very long held themselves in some villages in Istria. The Italian form Morlacco is used already in 15th century, and in 16th century that is the name for (any) local people living in mountains from Kotor [in Montenegro] to Kvarner [around city of Rijeka]. Lots of Morlaks was in Velebit mountains, so that region was by Venetians called Morlachia. The Velebit mountain was called Montagne della Morlacca, and sea way under the mountain, closed by the islands, was Morlakian channel (Canale della Morlacca).” Prof. John G. Nandris from the University College of London, writes in Ethnoarchaeology and Latinity in the mountains of southern Velebit (in Transhumant pastoralism in Southern Europe -1999): " The Morlachs were a Mediaeval population, whose name has now vanished but is historically attested from Dalmatia. They were Latin speakers, and we can probably equate them with the Aromani (Vlachs, Cincari) of the Balkan peninsula south of Danube (..) It was confirmed during the 1985 fieldwork that although the shepherds of Velebit are Croat speakers, they still employ a system of Latin numerals to enumerate sheep. These are identical to the Romanian or Aromanian numerals. This legacy indicates that the population from whom the present shepherds learned the techniques of pastoralism were certainly Latin speakers." According to Buschan "Die Volker Europas'', c. 1910, the Maurovlachen (Maurovlachians) were black Vlachians; they were nomadic shepherds, like the Aromunen and Turkish shepherds; their name was mentioned in the 10th century in the Byzantine empire; in the 11th century in Bulgaria and in later times in the western part of the Balkan peninsula. Krajina region was an area first settled by a pastoral, nomadic people known as Vlachs, or Morlachs because they were more dark skinned than their Slavic neighbours. From the 16th century, the Austrians invited them to settle the Vojna Krajina (military frontier) where they were free of serfdom in return for defending the border (roughly that of present Bosnia) against the Turks. By this time most of them were Orthodox.In 1630 Ferdinand II issued the "Statuta Valachorum"; (Law of the Vlachs), which defined the status of the Vlachs. Allers Illustrerede Konversations-Leksikon' (Copenhagen 1906-10) says that the Morlaks are some of the best sailors in the Austrian navy. The Croatian census of 1991 revealed 22 persons who declared themselves as "Morlachs"… www.angelfire.com/realm/vlachs/#BVlachs
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2008 0:06:25 GMT -5
Real Illyrian(7/10/03 11:59 am) 1. Historical Overview - Official Reports and Travel Accounts The Dalmatian Hinterland, an integral part of the southern Croatian region of Dalmatia whose music culture I am studying, has been the scene of tumultuous historical events, which have directly influenced the music culture of its people. It is largely inhabited by a population called Morlaci [Morlachs or Morlacchi] or Vlaji [Vlachs or Wallachs] who engage in cattle breeding for a living. The term Morlacchi was first mentioned in documents in 1352 (Novak, 1971: 580; Gulin, 1997: 82), both as a toponym and as the name for the native population, first Romanized and then Slavenized, which is distinctive on several levels: it designates Christians (as opposed to Muslims), peasants (as opposed to urban-dwellers), and inhabitants of hinterlands (as opposed to the coastal and island populations) (Gulin 1997:82) (1). It is a fascinating to learn how many wars have swept through this relatively small region over the last two thousand years, how many people have settled there, moved away or simply disappeared, and how many cultures have left their traces in the population which is of Illyrian, Romanic and Slavic origins. One must not omit the religions, which have been present in this region throughout history - polytheism, Roman Catholicism, Christian Orthodoxy and Islam. The traces of that can be witnessed even today in villages whose names such as Islam Grcki and Islam Latinski (2) designate inhabitants of diverse religious and, indirectly, of diverse ethnic affiliation. However, these factors did not influence their mutually very similar modes of communication through music. To gain a better perception of Hinterland culture I began, at the outset, to examine travelogues and official reports from the 18th and 19th centuries. The original objective of these writings was political in nature - to inform their writers' governments (either Venetian or Austro-Hungarian) about the way of life of the people living alongside the unstable Venetian-Ottoman border, and to try to predict what their reactions would be in the event of military operations. The reports usually speak of three groups who live in the region - islanders, coastal-dwellers (Boduli), and mountain-dwellers (Morlaki, Vlaji). The last one are depicted as having the typical characteristics of Rousseau's imaginary "noble savage" (Gulin, 1997: 84): they are strong, tough, hearty - but sincere, hospitable, honest, noble, and reliable. Carnival group from village of Gliev (Sinj) European readers discovered the culture of the Dalmatian Hinterland at the end of the 18th century through a travel accounts. The term Morlacchism infers the European reception of information on the Dalmatian hinterland of the 18th century, that is, of its customs, beliefs, the way of life of this population, and their music culture (3). Alberto Fortis' Viaggio in Dalmazia [Traveling Across Dalmatia] and its chapter Manners of the Morlacchi, dating from 1774, and Ivan Lovric's Biljeske o putu po Dalmaciji opata Alberta Fortisa [Notes on the Journey Across Dalmatia by the Abbot Alberto Fortis] dating from 1776, were the first capital works of this kind of literature. They contained detailed descriptions of the life of the Morlachs and were translated into several European languages. This barbarian people was described with terms such as natural, untouched by civilization and unspoiled, old, original, uneducated and inverted, hospitable, warm, fond of weapons, fatalistically oriented and superstitious (4). Reading these texts one can learn about the Morlacchian stance towards music, which was part of their everyday lives. The most common founds in these works are descriptions of singing and situations in which there is singing. All the authors emphasized the attitude of the Morlachs towards singing, which they practiced with enthusiasm:
"they sing when they travel, eat, work or speak, you can always hear them singing... traveling by day, and particularly at night, all the Morlachs always sing, but when there are a lot of them together, they usually singing alternately" (Lovric, 1948 [1776]: 65).
The writers admired the Morlach songs full of lively images and imagination, which had a powerful effect on the souls of listeners. All the writers of that period gained the same impression of this music - a wild and primitive, undefined music style, which could not be compared with the music phenomena they were used to. While Fortis noticed "a unique phenomena of poetry and music" (Fortis, 1984 [1774]:185), Yiarte described their music-making as an "amorphous artistic phenomenon" (Yiarte in Dobronic, 1915: 8) , Noe's impression was of "something which cannot be described" (Noe in Dobronic, 1915: 8) , Petter describes "music different from yodeling and piping" (Petter, 1857: 200), while Carrara "noticed oriental elements" (Carrara 1846: 183) in this mountain folk singing. As a man whose origins were in these areas, Lovric showed a meticulous approach to the singing and music-making of the Morlachs, also describing the behavior of listeners during the performance and their attitude to other musics: "Their ears - as regards harmony - are organized in such a way that in order to feel comfortable with music they need sound such as that which they have become accustomed to by habit, and this habit has become part of their nature. And the truth of this can be seen in the fact that Italian music of the highest level is boring to them, in just the same way that Morlach music is boring to Italians" (Lovric, 1948 [1776]: 194) (5).Lovric also criticized Fortis about his failing "... to notice that some customs are changed" (Lovric,1948: 58) . Lovric saw change in many aspects of life, and also recognized the time dimension (then - in olden times, recently - today), claiming that some customs had changed, while others had been "abolished". Besides, Lovric emphasized changes more in the possession aspect than Fortis did - those changes reflect in cultural as well as in social life. More attention to style and the music traits of singing is given by researchers at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century, although they did not discuss the changes in music forms and music-making during that period. www.muspe.unibo.it/period/ma/index/number6/caleta/jos_1.htm
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Post by Emperor AAdmin on Jan 2, 2008 0:08:33 GMT -5
KnezArchangelos(2/23/04 11:28 pm) Last i checked, Vlach were descendants of the ancient Thracians, so how are these "Vlachs" Illyrians now? ---------- AAdmin(2/26/04 3:12 am) "Last i checked, Vlach were descendants of the ancient Thracians, so how are these "Vlachs" Illyrians now? " As far as I know Vlachs in Balkans are not all of same or common origin and racially speaking they are closest to the local population (example Vlachs in Toskeria are racially most similar to Tosks, Vlachs in R.Macedonia are most similar to Slavophone Macedonians, Vlachs in Istria are mainly the same with local Croats). Vlachs are in effect nothing more then romanized native local Balkanic populationand considering that many Illyrians were later romanized by Roman Empire it is no wonder that many Vlachs in the same region are in reality remains of some of those romanized Illyrians. --------- rex362(2/26/04 10:45 pm) ...and you have 2 remember that Vlachs have been ping ponged / pin balled around the whole balkan region throughout history...they have assimilated 2 differ cultures and lingos....and maybe have been even assimiliated many times over..... you know ...they were farmers/sheep herders in the best valleys....."move here ..now live here..speak this....now move again..now speak this...wars comming.....ok move over there...now come back...but speak this and forget 2 speak that..hey can you move again...move into the drylands...but dont sing them old songs...but you can sing these ..."land for sale"..ok get out ...go....speak whatever you can remember"....what was the bus drivers name.... ?.....
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Post by vlaici on May 4, 2008 9:54:37 GMT -5
I read a Croat document, where the Mavrovlachs were supposed to be the ancestors of today Serb orthodox minority (!). They would have been assimilated by Slavs and perceived as Serbs because of the religion.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 6, 2008 16:42:42 GMT -5
All Vlachs owe their allegiance to Romania.
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Post by c0gnate on May 6, 2008 18:43:29 GMT -5
All Vlachs owe their allegiance to Romania. I know what you mean:
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Post by jerryspringer on May 7, 2008 12:06:19 GMT -5
I was joking. Hitler had good usage of the Germans scattered around Europe, because those Germans were industrious. Evil as Hitler was, he could use those Germans to build up his empire. You, on the other hand, are useless. You are a waste of time. You are an investment that returns no profit. If anything, you could view Romania as the closest you come to a state, and serve her--if not materialistically--then at least symbolically. When it comes to the Aromanians, I'm well aware that if they had their own state bordering Romania (just an example), they would at best be decent neighbors. I'm confident that they would not be interested in uniting with Romania or have very close collaborations.
So I'm sorry, but in this aspect, I guess I'm worse than Hitler, because I don't put any value on you. I don't want your kind. I wish you never were.
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Post by c0gnate on May 7, 2008 12:27:01 GMT -5
You, on the other hand, are useless. You are a waste of time. You are an investment that returns no profit. Investment? What investment? I need dates, amounts, investors and borrowers.
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Post by jerryspringer on May 7, 2008 12:35:24 GMT -5
Not those kind of investments. We couldn't afford such investments, so we started with cultural investments. Nevermind, now. You are your own and we are our own, so each to his own.
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Post by c0gnate on May 7, 2008 13:04:35 GMT -5
Not those kind of investments. We couldn't afford such investments, so we started with cultural investments. Cultural investments? No kidding? Such as?
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Post by jerryspringer on May 7, 2008 13:08:08 GMT -5
I was obviously referring to the Aromanians of Macedonia in the early 20th century.
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Post by c0gnate on May 7, 2008 15:09:57 GMT -5
I was obviously referring to the Aromanians of Macedonia in the early 20th century. If you're talking about them, some 50,000 moved to Romania in the 1920's. You don't think that was a good return on investment?
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Post by ggrant on Aug 26, 2009 7:27:37 GMT -5
KnezArchangelos(2/23/04 11:28 pm) Last i checked, Vlach were descendants of the ancient Thracians, so how are these "Vlachs" Illyrians now? ---------- AAdmin(2/26/04 3:12 am) "Last i checked, Vlach were descendants of the ancient Thracians, so how are these "Vlachs" Illyrians now? " As far as I know Vlachs in Balkans are not all of same or common origin and racially speaking they are closest to the local population (example Vlachs in Toskeria are racially most similar to Tosks, Vlachs in R.Macedonia are most similar to Slavophone Macedonians, Vlachs in Istria are mainly the same with local Croats). Vlachs are in effect nothing more then romanized native local Balkanic populationand considering that many Illyrians were later romanized by Roman Empire it is no wonder that many Vlachs in the same region are in reality remains of some of those romanized Illyrians. --------- rex362(2/26/04 10:45 pm) ...and you have 2 remember that Vlachs have been ping ponged / pin balled around the whole balkan region throughout history...they have assimilated 2 differ cultures and lingos....and maybe have been even assimiliated many times over..... you know ...they were farmers/sheep herders in the best valleys....."move here ..now live here..speak this....now move again..now speak this...wars comming.....ok move over there...now come back...but speak this and forget 2 speak that..hey can you move again...move into the drylands...but dont sing them old songs...but you can sing these ..."land for sale"..ok get out ...go....speak whatever you can remember"....what was the bus drivers name.... ?..... NOW compare illyrian language with albanian and the latin language that vlachs speak. Illyrian is not a latin language as are not messapic and venetian, which are branches of Illyrian. How do you explain that many words of illyrian are explained by albanian
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