Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 2, 2011 22:43:57 GMT -5
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Post by mystery on Jun 3, 2011 14:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by rusebg on Jun 3, 2011 15:42:21 GMT -5
Chento, which one of the 200 old drunkards that represent OMO Ilinden is a relative of yours?
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 5, 2011 19:54:21 GMT -5
None of them, but it's good you acknowledge the Macedonian minority of Bulgaria.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 6, 2011 1:32:34 GMT -5
we did. In the last census a vast number of people in Bulgaria declared they are Macedonians - I think it was the striking number of 3117 people. Out of over 7 million. I m wondering: did those 3117 people include the recent newcomers/students from Macedonia that got Bulgarian citizenship easily because they declared their Bulgarian origin (and stayed in Bulgaria)? I guess they ll need time to accept that Bulgarians arent tatars but an exact copies of the "ancient" Macedonians.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 6, 2011 1:53:36 GMT -5
funny that. that's roughly the same number of Bulgarians in R. Macedonia in the last census. i guess that was the number of Bulgarian prostitutes and strippers working in Macedonia...
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 6, 2011 4:37:13 GMT -5
I dont think so. The Bulgarian prostitutes and strippers working in Macedonia are not CITIZENS of Macedonia thus are not illigible to participate in the census. There is no movement of Bulgarians to Macedonia and taking up of Macedonian citizenship by Bulgarians (unlike the hundred tousands newborn Bulgarians from Macedonia). As a result, the Bulgarians of Macedonia could only be just Bulgarians, living in Macedonia since their birth.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 6, 2011 8:25:38 GMT -5
Fvcking hell, that's a progress!!! In the previous one the Bulgarians were something like 1000. That is a true indication of the democratic nature of your government.
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 6, 2011 19:29:23 GMT -5
Isn't interesting how all these so-called Bulgarian citizens in Macedonia are still declaring themselves as Macedonians in Macedonian census results. And before you claim, the figures are false, these census's are monitored by international observers, who found no irregularities. This confirms that fact that BG citizenship was obtained by business and travel purposes in the past. I'd like to know the currenct figures, since MK citizens no longer need visa's to travel in the EU.
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Post by rusebg on Jun 7, 2011 0:07:11 GMT -5
Bulgarian citizenship also needs documents to support the claims that the person had Bulgarian ancestors. Interesting how no macedonian met any difficulties to prove that.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 7, 2011 0:11:21 GMT -5
Isn't interesting how all these so-called Bulgarian citizens in Macedonia are still declaring themselves as Macedonians in Macedonian census results. No I understand it. Alot of Macedonians deceived Bulgaria so that they get citizenship. Unfortunately we can not check the intention of the people. What my point was - those 3000 in Bulgaria could easily be Macedonian students recently obtained citizenship. In Macedonia however the Bulgarians are not recent newcomers, but obviously people that lived in Macedonia since their birth (because no Bulgarian would take Macedonian citizenship at this point). i dont confirm it. Actually I think it was quite stupid policy. I think we should have wanted a long permanent stay before granting a passport so that the person has had time to study what international sources have concluded on the origin of the Macedonians 50 years ago. There also must have been an exam on Bulgarian history, especially Bulgarian history on the region of Macedonia. So that we know they ve studied what the world accepts (minus Serbia and Macedonia).
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 7, 2011 0:35:19 GMT -5
MACEDONIANS IN BULGARIATHE MACEDONIANS IN THE BULGARIAN CENSUSES 1944 – 19891. During the communism period 1.à. Period of recognition 1944 -1963 During the time between1941 – 2011 in Bulgaria were conducted 7 official censuses. We also need to mention another census organised by the schools in Pirin Macedonia1 in 1945. Three of these censuses have been made in a period in which Bulgaria officially had recognised the existence of Macedonian nation and respectively of a Macedonian minority on its territory – that is the period 1944 – 1963. 1. School census organised by the school inspectorate in the school year 1946/1947. From a general number of 43 920 pupils in the district, 34 039 (77, 51 %) 35 184 declared themselves as Macedonians. Declared as Macedonian Muslims were 4538 (10, 33%). The declared as Bulgarian – 3184 (7, 25 %). The rest (Roma population, Turks, Jews and others) were altogrether – 1014 (2, 31%)2. 2. Official census of the population the end of 1946 – the beginning of 1947. On the territory of Bulgaria as Macedonians declared themselves 169 5443 people mainly in Pirin Macedonia where the majority of them is. 3. Official census in 1956 – 187 787 from which in Pirin Macedonia – 178 000 and the rest in the other parts of Bulgaria. In Pirin Macedonia the Macedonians are 63, 33 % from the population, 33 % are Bulgarians, the other 3 % are others (mainly Turks, Roma population and Pomaks)4. 1.b. Period of denial and interrogation (1963 – 1989) After the stepping into power of the dictator Todor Zhivkov in 1956 starts gradual change of the policies towards the minorities. One of the first victims of the new political line is the Macedonian minority. After several years of internal party struggles the resistance of the Macedonian lobby in BCP with its leader the Prime Minister Anton Jugov - a former activist of VMRO (united) is broken and the main leaders forced away. Officially the new policy had been proclaimed on a plenum of CC of BCP which took place on 11 March 1963. Its motto becomes the words of the dictator Zhivkov on the same plenum: „The population of Pirin area is a part of the Bulgarian nation. There is no Macedonian nationality there and cannot be’’, And the Macedonian nation had been called ‗the so called Macedonian nation‘5. Immediately after the change of the policy had been taken strict and various actions for assimilation of the Macedonians (turning them into Bulgarians) – actions starting from the kindergarten to the pensioner‘s clubs and from the libraries to prohibition to sing and listen to Macedonian songs. Despite this and despite the strict measures taken in 1965 during the census 9 632 (6)people declared that they were Macedonians. Many who denied to accept to new policy had been sent to prison or interned inside Bulgaria where because of their great scatterings and smaller number was hard for the authorities to take the immense measures they had taken in Pirin Macedonia.In Pirin Macedonia just following the traditional communist pattern the number of the Macedonians was taken under 1 %.6 On the census in 1975 wasn‘t given any right to declare Macedonian or any other minority identity – it had been conducted on the idea of a united Bulgarian socialist nation. The census planned for 1985 was called off because of problems with ‗The Revival Process‘ of the Turks and the Roma people – just other victims of the serial nationalist politics of the communist regime.
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 7, 2011 2:02:35 GMT -5
actions starting from the kindergarten to the pensioner‘s clubs and from the libraries to prohibition to sing and listen to Macedonian songs. how will you explain the fac that Macedonian songs were, are, will be sung thoughout the whole of Bulgaria? The fact that most Bulgarians do have a favourite Macedonian song, as well as Thracian, Moesian, Shopski etc? Obviously the so called article is totally biased and politically motivated. There are documents prooving that the communists forced the people in pirin Macedonia to declare "Macedonian" and actually Bulgarians from Pirin Macedonia were sent to prison because they refused to declare as something else other than Bulgarian. The so called "voluntary" declaration of Macedonian ethnicity was studip and bloodily executed Bulgarian policy under Moscow and Belgrade pressure in preparation for incorporation of Bulgaria in Yugoslavia. The same debulgarizing polisy was executed in Yugoslavia for over 50 years. Its no surprise that most of the young Macedonians are antibulgarian. Their whole identity is biased on the denial of anything Bulgarian.
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Post by terroreign on Jun 7, 2011 3:00:56 GMT -5
i wonder how you 'bulgarize' something, like is that special hair-dryer looking device the Cuman Turks used when they hopped down to serb lands around thrace, uh yes, yes it was
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ioan
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Post by ioan on Jun 7, 2011 3:37:30 GMT -5
i wonder how you 'bulgarize' something, like is that special hair-dryer looking device the Cuman Turks used when they hopped down to serb lands around thrace, uh yes, yes it was we only know about serbanizing campains on the Bolkans because no bulgarizing campains were ever executed (Thrace, Moesia and Macedonia were bulgarian populated areas since at least 9 century). The serbanizing campains were organized on a vast bulgarian populated lands: macedonia (big failure at serbanizing, sucsess at debulgarizing), torlakia (sucsessful serbanizing campain, if Novi is any indication, you managed to instill antibulgarism and hate for anything bulgarian - big sucsess for Serbia).
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 7, 2011 19:38:15 GMT -5
ioan, can you please explain the bulgarian atrocities committed against macedonians in wwii, during the occupation of vardar macedonia. how can our bulgarian 'brothers' do such things? i can post some pics for you if you want, to jog your memory, but they are quite graphic.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 7, 2011 20:30:17 GMT -5
Bulgarian citizenship also needs documents to support the claims that the person had Bulgarian ancestors. Interesting how no macedonian met any difficulties to prove that. Works the same way in Croatia. Croatian citizenship can be acquired by people outside of or not born in Croatia if those people can prove at least one parent of Croatian liniage. The Macedonians going for Bulgarian citizenship phenomena is very similar to Bosnians going for Croatian citizenship. Nearly all Bosnian Croats hold a Cro citizenship and passport , a good amount of Bosniaks do ( See , Croat ancestry when conveniant) as well Bosnian Serbs holding Serbian citizenships and passports. I would wager that the Bosnian passport is the least used by Bosnians ( Cro , Muslim , and Serb) as a whole lol.
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 7, 2011 20:39:37 GMT -5
Macedonians and Bulgarians shouldn't fight and both need to take a step back and critically think about the situation. In my honest opinion you are basically one nation divided into two states but your problems arise when something ought to be called Bulgarian and Macedonian. Macedonians ! Your country's name and your unique identity ought to be preserved and recognized. R.Macedonia is a home for all its citizens including Bulgarians, Serbs ,and Greeks. I know you must be extremely frustrated with all their vulgar claims on your people and heritage. I heard a Macedonian man tell me in Zagreb one time " Everyone wants Macedonia for themselves. Serbs claim our religion , Bulgarians claim our people , Greeks claim our name, and everyone claims our land," and doesn't look like he was off the mark with that one. I know that's frustrating but if you really want to understand them and mend things at least attempt to understand their POVs. I know you want to write a pro-Macedonian history of Macedonia but you shouldn't do it at other peoples' expense. Non Macedonians in FYROM are Macedonians in their own way , the Greek way , the Bulgarian way , and the Serb way. Accept these just as you expect them to accept your Macedonian way. They are not enemies to Macedonia , they are elements of it. From your Croatian friend , Prisojanin .
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Sokol
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Post by Sokol on Jun 7, 2011 20:49:14 GMT -5
You make alot of sense my Croatian friend. But this is the Balkan way, we fight fire, with fire. I take alot of heart from the fact that in one of Macedonia's darkest hours (2001 conflict), Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia all assisted us in their own way. We got political support, and military equipment from each, and even some volunteers. We do not forget these things. Our political differences are superficial as far as I'm concerned, but we cannot just sit back and take it. In the past Macedonia did not have independent political representation, and we were fought over by our neighbours. Today, the situation is different and Macedonians have a right to defend ourselves and our positions.
Veliki pozdrav od brat Makedonski
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Post by Croatian Vanguard on Jun 7, 2011 20:56:11 GMT -5
You make alot of sense my Croatian friend. But this is the Balkan way, we fight fire, with fire. I take alot of heart from the fact that in one of Macedonia's darkest hours (2001 conflict), Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia all assisted us in their own way. We got political support, and military equipment from each, and even some volunteers. We do not forget these things. Our political differences are superficial as far as I'm concerned, but we cannot just sit back and take it. In the past Macedonia did not have independent political representation, and we were fought over by our neighbours. Today, the situation is different and Macedonians have a right to defend ourselves and our positions. Veliki pozdrav od brat Makedonski Agreed. Always be ready to defend your own when it's neccessary. It is the Balkans after all. Don't worry though, I'm sure you realize the biggest threats are just 'talk.' Macedonia as a country is here to stay and people will have to deal with that reality if they haven't yet. The region's future demands and gravitates towards cooperation and not antagonisms. Macedonia will be eventually welcomed ( it was already supported - by Croatia also I might add as a loved family member in her region of Europe. Your name is safe , it won't have to change. I believe most Greeks have far too much else to worry about and would actually welcome R.Macedonia support. I love your country and people. Some of the most honest and hard working I've ever met. Pozdravlja vas hrvatski prijatelj.
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